Involution and Evolution - Mentioned in Early Church Gospel of the Nazarenes

Originally posted by pacifier2012
Some are Spiritual beings having a human experience!

Some (because they aren't chosen) are humans having a spiritual experience and some (because they aren't even called) are humans having a human experience.

Work that one out!

edit on 2-11-2012 by pacifier2012 because: (no reason given)

As I pointed out earlier, it's all in Ephesians:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Notice that we were chosen before we were even rendered into matter. We are sons. Christ is the Father. The Father of Christ is our Grandfather. God is One and unity brings us back to the One in unity. Light is separated from darkness by the process. We grow and are raised by the experience, just as God raises His Son. The Son raises us.

It is worth noting that God is love and love keeps no record of wrongs.

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

What would we need to become to embrace this reality? We would need to become it to know. Love is the aim and we can throw that gift away by choice. Baptism is repentance and we are here to seek that repentance. Salvation is adoption and we are baptized toward that goal.

Did Christ bring us into the water? Yes. Then we are chosen. It's a gift and gifts can be wasted and denied.

Go back and read the Psalms. What Christ said through David is said to us and to himself. God is raising us all and we are all cut from the same loaf.

Cohesion - the act or state of cohering, uniting, or sticking together.


1 Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


All very Beautiful and Uplifting words and thoughts in your thread here EnochWasRight. I have enjoyed reading everyones replies to the " Mainstream Biblical Viewpoints " in this thread by EnochWasRight.

Searching for Biblical Truths and Facts is always very rewarding for anyone who seeks to do so in their life.

However - As we all search for " Biblical Truths " We must all Remain Honest with ourselves and within ourselves as we search the scriptures left behind for us to read from the early church members and the first people on earth created by " God " We must examine and Really Look at Just What Exactly the Scriptures are Saying. We must use our brains and " Really Think " about and Examine what is Really being stated and said by God and all of the variouis authors of the Scriptures in the Bible written over the many years back in history.

I am going to re-post a post I posted on another thread last month on 10-04-12 Titled -

Even if evolution isn't true - the evidence still exist ( that a perfect God didn't create us)
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am posting this to get Believers in God to " Really Think " about the scriptures they are reading in their biblical study, and actually see and think about what they are reading, and what is " Really Being Said " and Stated By " God " and or all of the authors of the early scriptures in the many, many Biblcal Texts that we all have read today.

There is not enough room in this post, so I will post my previous post next. Stop and really read my post below, and really think about all you have read and studied about all of your lives, and see what is Really being said in the Bible.

Be Honest within yourselves with your thoughts, and really think for a change about what you have been reading and studying all of your lives. Look at the Biblical Facts that you have read and memorized and known about ever since you where a small child, and Look at them with the " Eyes of An Adult " an Adult that can Really Examine the Facts that you have read and studied all of your life.

If you reply to my post below, please do not waste your time attacking me for pointing out the obvious facts in the scriptures stated by "God" himself and the prophets. God Admits in the bible everything about his " creation ", only problem is, is that there is Extreme Contradiction in many things that "God" states in the bible. In other words, I am pointing the " Obvious Problems " of "Gods" position, and statements as Recorded in the Record of the Bible that we people on earth have today. If God makes a " Straw-Man " and Blames The Human Race for this Evil " Straw-Man " who's Fault is this " Creation of This Evil Straw-Man " ??? That is the Question that Everyone who can really think must ask themselves.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


posted on 10/4/2012 @ 12:31 PM by chrisb9 in this thread link below.

Even if evolution isn't true - the evidence still exist ( that a perfect God didn't create us)
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I agree with the title of this thread, and I think God states in the bible that he is not perfect either. Not in those "exact words" though.

First let me preface my reply by stating that I do believe in God, I am not an athiest.

In my opinion, the Op is making the correct statement, but is not using the right proof. I am going to simplify the bible stories that everyone already knows that has read the bible, to not have to quote endless scriptures to back up what I am going to say.

The " Area of Proof " that God is not perfect, is when God tells us about how he created the angels. Everyone has heard this story, there are even endless movies cranked out by hollywood every year. The fallen angel lucifer or satan is the main proof that God is not perfect. To create or make many angels in antiquity, "God only knows when" and for one of these angels that God made to rebel against God, that shows an " Imperfect Creation " of an angel.

An all knowing, and an all seeing God, who " Knows The Future " could Easily have seen or known that lucifer was " Not Perfect. " For a " Perfect God " to make or create an " Imperfect Creation " shows that God is not perfect.

Of course any of us could take the stance, that God did this on purpose and his ways are above our ways, and his thoughts are above our thoughts etc. etc. etc. We are all capable of making Endless Excuses for God, as to why God did this.

Or, maybe God just likes " Entertainment " you know, like the way we humans like to See Entertainment. Like how the ancient Romans really liked to watch the christians and the poor and helpless being thrown to the lions and various other wild beasts in the Coliseum in Rome.

And of course not to only blame the ancient Romans for brutal, insane slaughter of people, look at our " Modern Wars " and how insane and senseless they all are till this day. Yes, we're all right up there with the Ancient Romans today with the worlds militaries endless wars of slaughter of the innocent.

You see, we all think that we really know what God is like, or what God likes, but the brutal examples that history teaches us about what " God " has allowed to happen on this planet beggers the mind of any thinking person to say that they " Really Know God "

If God is " Perfect " How could a " Perfect God " make an Imperfect angel ??? And / Or - maybe the real question here is - " Why " would God make an Imperfect angel ???

This is just one Example in the Bible that is admitted by God about one of his " Imperfect Acts ".

Since we are talking about " God " in this thread, Why would " God " like or want " Gold " ??? and Why would God tell Adam in the first book of the bible about Gold ??? and God even says that " the Gold is Good " Why is the gold good ?

Why would Adam and Eve even want or need gold ??? Gold is very Heavy like Lead. Adam can't eat the gold, or does God want Adam to make himself a nice new shiny Rolex watch??? Come on, what's this Fascination by " God " with " Gold " ??? Does an Infinite and an All Wise God like Shiny Gold watches and rings...??? What's with Gods interest in gold ???

Is Sitchin's interpretation of the ancient Sumerian clay tablets beginning to make any sense here....?

What is the real bottom line story here on this planet earth? Entertainment ? Gold ? Love ? Endless Wars ?

I am mentioning all of this, just to show that there is something going on, that none of us really understands, even though there are many who think that they really do understand. Even though there are Endless Believers in " The God of Creation " world wide, and Endless Religions world wide, do any of us " Really Know " what the " The Real Game Is " ??? Could the Real Game be just the shiny gold....?

Yes, we Christians here in America all say, Oh Yeah, We Know All about " God " , and of course All of the Muslims in the Middle East and around the world say the Exact same thing. All of the people in all of the nations of the world all say that " They Know God " and that " Their God " is " The Real God " ! ! !

Surely I am not the only " Believer In God " to see these " Obvious Discrepancies in A Perfect God "

Also, all throughout the bible the general theme seems to be, that " God " is still catching up, and is still trying to " correct his creation " and all the while using man to play out the story on a " Grand Stage " like an endless Shakespearian Play.

Wow, talk about Endless Fascinating Brutal Entertainment... So Which Is It ???

Is the Bottom line theme and story on all of "Gods Creation" Love ? Gold ? or Endless Wars of Misery and Slaughter of People ? For " Gods " Entertainment.. ? Which is It ?

reply to post by EnochWasRight


There are many who knew the golden rule , and there was ancient Chinese philosopher before Christ who talked about "universal love", I think his name was Mo Zi but I cant be sure, and Confucius stressed the importance of Ren (benevolence - humanitarianism - brotherhood kindness).

true Love is charity ( giving to others from your own free will not out of obligation or expecting to get something back from them in return).

EnochWasRight, you have the right spirit giving information to others to help them in their lives and dressing the importance of Giving. Peace!

reply to post by chrisb9

The " Area of Proof " that God is not perfect, is when God tells us about how he created the angels. Everyone has heard this story, there are even endless movies cranked out by hollywood every year. The fallen angel lucifer or satan is the main proof that God is not perfect. To create or make many angels in antiquity, "God only knows when" and for one of these angels that God made to rebel against God, that shows an " Imperfect Creation " of an angel.

An all knowing, and an all seeing God, who " Knows The Future " could Easily have seen or known that lucifer was " Not Perfect. " For a " Perfect God " to make or create an " Imperfect Creation " shows that God is not perfect.

God cannot create an image that is perfect apart from the ONE that was begotten. Why? What would you have if you made an image indistinguishable from yourself? You would have two and not one. God raises His Son and you are confusing Elohim with the Lord. The Lord is the Son and the Son was the firstborn of all creation. How does a God raise a Son that is capable of rendering a reality? The Son gives Himself up for the rest. Read the verse below. All of us are stamped from the same seal and cut from the same loaf and poured from the same cup. God is raising His Son. His Son is raising us. You are only noting the process but not the intent.

1 Colossians 1:
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

From the Son comes all of us. As He is so shall we be. We must be engaged from nothing to something and this requires choice, evil and good. Free will necessitates that the lower harmony be given choice to raise to the higher. Evolution is only true by sense of the fact that all things flow from a source that is greater than the division. Evolution and involution are simply results and not a cause.

reply to post by chrisb9

If God is " Perfect " How could a " Perfect God " make an Imperfect angel ??? And / Or - maybe the real question here is - " Why " would God make an Imperfect angel ???

This is just one Example in the Bible that is admitted by God about one of his " Imperfect Acts ".

It is easy to create a pretext around a misunderstood context. God explains these things and the reasoning behind them is solid. Here is one example of clearly spoken knowledge that gives us the excluded middle behind our lower degrees of truth.

All paradox can be resolved. Higher truth is the excluded middle that explains God's providence. His thoughts are higher by degree and paradox is left when we lack the higher truth. Even in music, error and compromise is needed for perfect harmony.

Eyes Wide Open

reply to post by chrisb9

Wow, talk about Endless Fascinating Brutal Entertainment... So Which Is It ???

Is the Bottom line theme and story on all of "Gods Creation" Love ? Gold ? or Endless Wars of Misery and Slaughter of People ? For " Gods " Entertainment.. ? Which is It ?

All pretext and not what is implied by creation. There are two creations. There is paradise and there is the image of paradise where we exist. The image is just what it claims. It is a secondary impression of the original. You are implying that creation as the image includes evil and corruption. You are correct. This evil and corruption is entirely owned by its residents. We were given a garden. We will leave it a field of burning weeds. This is the point. We are to subdue the Earth and master it. There are five baptisms to overcome so we can be welcomed back as adults instead of Children of God. Again, you are building a pretext around a brilliant system of providence from a long-suffering God.

Confucius said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand."
Earth - We are planted into the Garden. We are not rooted in the soil like plants or in a fixed domain like fish. Instead, we can occupy all domains. This autonomy requires that we overcome these domains by hardships. The wilderness we occupy was provided to allow our growth by experience.

Air - We are given the Word of God as a guide to the wilderness. This word is also the language we learn and master. Meaning ultimately comes when we decipher the inner symbols of nature and overcome our ignorance and pride of the outer world. Meaning springs from the root, just like a plant.

Water - We are baptized into the Water (Immersion into Reality). The water cleanses the temple (body). The temple is where the sacrifice is made. This temple houses the spirit of God, along with our soul. We are to overcome as we are born again. "You must be born again." Plants die and the seed perpetuates to the next generation. Producing fruit ensures seed for the next crop.

Isaiah 26
19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

Fire - We are finally baptized by Trials. The Flaming Sword of God cuts away pride and protects the tree of life. The tree of life is DNA. We light the fire we burn by. We can also put out the fire with the water.

Spirit - After overcoming the first four baptisms, we are then baptized by the Spirit of God. Jesus is necessary for us to be marked by the spirit for salvation from the Fire. The water and blood of Christ brings salvation from the corruption of the elements.

How do we overcome and what do we overcome? Faith is the answer to the process. It starts with our recognition of the authority of God as the Good Shepherd. Jesus is our connection to the Father. He is the Living Word that breathes life into our spirit and soul by experiences of grace.

Hello EnochWasRight, and thank you for replying to my post.

My Questions to you here are not to bait you and to try and start some type of a biblical argument. I respect your opinion because I have read some of your posts in the past and it is easy to see that you have studied the scriptures. I would just like to get some other believers " view points " on these questions below.

Although your replies are good, and I understand what you are saying in your replies, I think that you are not really answering the main questions and points in my post.

Please look over this part of my post below and tell me what " Your Thoughts " are on these questions about " God "
We both can quote scriptures in posts here to support our theories all day long. But when the scriptures about " God " show that many things just do not add up, then we are all forced to draw our own conclusions as to what is really going on here, and mainly my question is: " What is The Bottom Line Answer to what is Really Going On Here on Earth " ?

-----------------------------

The " Area of Proof " that God is not perfect, is when God tells us about how he created the angels. .

The fallen angel lucifer or satan is the main proof that God is not perfect. To create or make many angels in antiquity, "God only knows when" and for one of these angels that God made to rebel against God, that shows an " Imperfect Creation " of an angel.

An all knowing, and an all seeing God, who " Knows The Future " could Easily have seen or known that lucifer was " Not Perfect. " For a " Perfect God " to make or create an " Imperfect Creation " shows that God is not perfect

And these points and obvious questions

Why would " God " like or want " Gold " ??? and Why would God tell Adam in the first book of the bible about Gold ??? and God even says that " the Gold is Good " Why is the gold good ?

Why would Adam and Eve even want or need gold ??? Gold is very Heavy like Lead. Adam can't eat the gold, or does God want Adam to make himself a nice new shiny Rolex watch??? Come on, what's this Fascination by " God " with " Gold " ??? Does an Infinite and an All Wise God like Shiny Gold watches and rings...??? What's with Gods interest in gold ???

Is Sitchin's interpretation of the ancient Sumerian clay tablets beginning to make any sense here....?

What is the real bottom line story here on this planet earth? Entertainment ? Gold ? Love ? Endless Wars ?

Wow, talk about Endless Fascinating Brutal Entertainment... So Which Is It ???

Is the Bottom line theme and story on all of "Gods Creation" Love ? Gold ? or Endless Wars of Misery and Slaughter of People ? For " Gods " Entertainment.. ? Which is It ?

-----------------------

Thank you EnochWasRight, I would like to hear your " Opinion and Interpretation " of what the bottom line on what is going on here on planet earth. What do you think about "God" Creating an Imperfect angel ? and What do you think about " God's " Fascination with " Gold " why would an " Infinate, All Knowing and All Powerfull " God " want with " Shiny Gold " ? and Why would this " God " create an imperfect angel ?

These facts about " God " do not make any sense to me, and do not " Add Up ", and I am certain that I am not the only person now or in history to see and realize these obvious descrepancies in " An Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient " God "

I enjoy your writings immensely, I only have 1 opinion from your original post. I do believe works make a difference. Conscious action, means worlds more than observance and recognition. Conscious action can be found in good works. A deed that would go undone, by merely observing and recognizing it, is lip service, as more than a few traditional Christians would miss out on the message in my opinion.

I will go to my creator also as a personal testament to the good works of heathens, as it took me being a heathen to have a closer relationship with God. I'm also not about to swear my allegiance blindly to the book, because there are others spreading a similar message as the New Testament in the other Enlightened Faith's, Pagans, Buddhists, Hindu's, et al. I live a life God has provided for me, It's amazing and awe inspiring, and terrible and wonderful, and it has taught me, adherence to an ideal is wonderful, but to live in the spirit of it takes action, and that action need not have a deity to be for the greater good and worthy of Christ's love. Let the believers who did nothing selfless go after, the selfless heathens into the Heavens, oh lord.

In goodly action redemption, not slovenly faith by lip service. That is all, The light-workers would earn it, because it felt right. Those who pay lip-service yet claim to believe, believe because it's convenient and nothing else has swayed them away from their original faith, but do nothing to live anything like that faith, but show up to church because they are supposed to. I am not fond of that. Those folks should not get the golden ticket, when they are living like hypocrites. But that's my opinion, it's like parking the car in the garage. But never taking it out to do what the car should be doing. As the Faithful, or as the goodly, be above yourself and go do for others a few hours each week, it will be the best medicine for the soul. And in my opinion, into Christ's Heaven, Heathen, Jew, or Gentile.

just one question at first, where does all this written words come from??? I mean all the books like the Bible or Koran.
is this something that exists like matter or electricity or magnetism ???

those are nice words, Jesus said this, Jesus said that... but, do you actually have any Jesus hand written scripts or something???
Don't you think all this comes from monks who has made the first Bible ?! and then overwritten it into they purposes ? NO?

and now I would like to ask you another question...
is any action taken good or bad... if you take any judgement out of it ???