Vatican release information on masons. Power struggle?

Originally posted by Ben81
My turn !

The Cube aka The Tessaract Exposed !

Too bad your picture is not an accurate representation of a Square and Compasses.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Ben81
My turn !

The Cube aka The Tessaract Exposed !

Too bad your picture is not an accurate representation of a Square and Compasses.

Jule my friend
yeah i know .. my drawing skill is not very advanced !
i can barely draw a stick figure
took me a few seconds to draw that image to insert 2 triangles
maybe the thread about the Cube will satisfy your demand of perfection for the angles
but keep in mind .. it is just food for thoughs .. i didnt calculate all the angle that much

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I have a statue of you in my living room always staring at me
really like my statue !

Took a picture a few seconds ago

reply to post by awake1234

Except Freemasonry is not structured or managed the same way as Freemasonry. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

reply to post by Wifibrains

The article contained no secret unless you want to count propaganda a secret of the Masons.

The very first condemnation in 1738 came about a year after the famous Oration of Chevalier Andrew Michael Ramsay.

With all of the organizations and group within Freemasonry there is no Illuminati. As I have said before, the way Freemasonry is structured there couldn't possibly exist a group that secretly controls everything like many say the Illuminati do within Freemasonry.

Originally posted by awake1234
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

To reiterate - a single Masonic lodge represents all of Masonry, little more than a single Mason represents the entire lodge.

Fine. So extrapolate my post to the York and Scottish Rites. Expand from Master of the lodge to Grand Master of Grand Lodge of whatever jurisdiction.

The underlying point doesn't change: fearless investiGooglers WILL NOT expend any meaningful effort to prove this great and ugly Masonic conspiracy they assert.

Haven't yet and never will.

Originally posted by awake1234
This is not a matter of good merit and achieving levels (nor is it due diligence in internet searches) as there are secrets which only few are selected to be exposed to and this based not on level, or degree at all.

Ah! So despite numerous assertions by sundry conspiracy theorists that the 33° of the Scottish Rite is when all the really good stuff gets spilled (why the equally important York Rite gets overlooked, I never can conceive [prolly 'cuz the names of the degrees just seem to be so lacking in eeevil]), no InvestiGoogler has put in the relatively paltry time to get to the 32° and then glad-handed for a few years to reach the honourary 33° (no offense intended to any actual 33rds on ATS)?

So....how and when's the real dirt dished???

Originally posted by awake1234
Additionally, no mention was ever made in above post regarding such secrets being malicious - these are societies which do good in their community and are immersed in esoterica...surely there is but 1 secret...but we will never know?

∞LOVE
mayallsoulsbefree∞

The accepted and received ATS wisdom is that Masonry is evil because each and every lodge doesn't have a billboard outside for the casual consumption of non-Masons and conspiracy theorists to peruse every letter of our rituals. Mark my words, even if they did there'd still be conspiracy theorists crying foul and that the REAL secrets still weren't being revealed.

It's called damned if you do.....

Your last line nicely makes the point I've been making. You too want the answer to every question you have to be served up a la carte for your conspiracy needs. You're as guilty of phoning-in the disbelief that presently intrigues you as virtually every other conspiracy theorist does. I challenge you to throw off your childish laziness and rise even to the threshold of a half-hearted real-life investigation and the best you come up with is "but we will never know?"

Fitz

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


The fact that the internet is being referenced as a plausible source for the discovery of 'secrets' is in itself a contradiction - how is it laziness to disregard the internet as a source of secrets when these secrets aren't revealed by degree or rite, but by the individual accepted - and again, well reiterate that secret does not imply negativity on the part of the organization...and it is sheer denial to assert that such a world-wide organization does not have any secrets when even the BoyScouts of America do!?!?
And if the posts being responded to were being also read carefully, the tendency to associate them with irrelevant conspiracy theories in order to prove falsehood with 'guilt by association' would cease, because not one of them indicates such.
So if you have any input to the actual topic at hand that would be welcomed rather than attempting to dis/prove that which neither have the credentials to do so~
This has been fun
Thanks!

∞LOVE
mayallsoulsbefree∞

reply to post by awake1234


It is getting hard to tell who is saying what here.

But I would posit that the "secrets" that you need to actually attend a lodge to learn would have more with context, and the lack of it that you get when you are self learning.

A very insightful person could navigate the string of reason that leads you from new initiate to master without any outside influence. However, that is not what being human is. And to truly grasp what is being taught you have to follow the natural order of progression within that string of logic.

Once again, I am only postulating. I have never set foot in a lodge and only reference my own self teaching and a bit of my own common sense.

why to you say the vatican is corrupt.

have you been there. do you know what they do behind closed doors. you have no friggin clue, besides what dan brown writes in the da vinci code.

they are Christ's Church on earth.

being Christ's one and only Church, they will be attacked by everything Christ's enemies have.

their goal is to protect you and your soul from these enemies.

but many people take the easy way out. they say God doesn't exist.

satan is not going to bother you, he won without even trying. God isn't going to harm you, so these people become the sheep, oblivious and ignorant to everything going around them and self absorbed in their own lives, but believing they know everything.

reply to post by randomname

So the Catholic Church is infallible and has done nothing wrong in their entire existence?

Originally posted by randomname
why to you say the vatican is corrupt.

have you been there. do you know what they do behind closed doors. you have no friggin clue, besides what dan brown writes in the da vinci code.

they are Christ's Church on earth.

being Christ's one and only Church, they will be attacked by everything Christ's enemies have.

their goal is to protect you and your soul from these enemies.

but many people take the easy way out. they say God doesn't exist.

satan is not going to bother you, he won without even trying. God isn't going to harm you, so these people become the sheep, oblivious and ignorant to everything going around them and self absorbed in their own lives, but believing they know everything.

So the fact that they don't practice what they preach....what does that mean?

The list could go on for pages, but as an example followers are instructed to not worship false idols. yet the Gods of each nation the Catholic Church sought to subjugate were made into saints, even if these Gods were completely mythological. Even the Roman Gods were made into saints. St. Martin....Mars. Even Ahura Mazda, the Zoroastrian god, was made into a saint. And the creative way it was hidden? To call the saint "St. Ahura Mazda". LOL

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Accurate...'secret' definitely could use some clarification in the context of the term; as theres secrets in the context of initiate and master as you pointed out, and also those dealing with organizations illegitimate practices, and finally those of the conspiratorial nature - and all of these pertain to both the church and freemasons.

That is why it is suspect that one organization may or may not release documents...like the title says...power struggle? - it seems maybe someone is hanging out their dirty laundry because inevitably where there are two powerful groups, they always have some interactions.

∞LOVE
mayallsoulsbefree∞

Originally posted by awake1234
and it is sheer denial to assert that such a world-wide organization does not have any secrets when even the BoyScouts of America do!?!?

The problem is that Freemasonry isn't a worldwide organization, but a network of autonomous state and regional organizations in the Americas, with a few very small nations having national Grand Lodges

This is where the Master Conspiracy fails with Freemasonry. There isn't an "inner circle" because there isn't really an outer one.

reply to post by OnTheLevel213


Thanks...& perhaps you are right, & this lack of homogeneity lends to the inability to actually identify a/the source of secrecy, & does not preclude secrecy within the halls - beyond degrees (non-graduated) - of the legal/conspiratorial/esoteric order, & which you could say is isolated to specific rites or lodges, & which leads to the speculation that this is a matter of balancing power among interacting individuals and organizations.

∞LOVE
mayallsoulsbefree∞

It seems to me that the "secret" part of Freemasonry are not the part that people assume to be "evil"

I personally assume that most Masons are honest and enjoy learning and practicing certain types of knowledge. I have even entertained the idea of becoming a Mason before.

It seems to me that the "brotherhood" part is what creates the public image problems for Freemasonry. When a significant portion of people who wield power and influence in our society belong to a "club" where they can meet in obscurity, I think people are justifiably suspicious.

Maybe they are plotting for world peace, or maybe they are just talking about geometry. I don't know, and I really don't care.

As someone who stands to be affected by certain powerful individuals' decisions, it's simply common sense to be suspicious when those powerful individuals convene in places that are closed off to me.

Here is something to chew on.

At the bottom of the document the last section is called FACTS ABOUT FREEMASONRY. Would this suggest that everything above the "facts" section is not actual fact. Technicaly this covers the Vatican for slander.

Originally posted by Wifibrains
reply to post by network dude

 

I mean no disrespect to you personally sir. You are more than your organisation. Hear it as a human not a freemason.

Question, if I may... Why the secrecy?

edit on 21-10-2012 by Wifibrains because: (no reason given)

There is no secrecy. Everything I learned and was told to keep secret is out there somewhere on the internet.
We try to keep the degree secret from the initiate until he goes through it so he can get maximum effect, but if the initiate really wanted to know what he was about to go through, all he needed to do is google it.

I promised not to tell any of the secrets I learned, and I won't. But I cannot stop the internet. The problem comes in when folks see a hate filled website that tells nothing but lies, and they lap that up thinking they have found some secret knowledge. They fail to execute the "does this even remotely make sense" test.

Originally posted by awake1234
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

how is it laziness to disregard the internet as a source of secrets when these secrets aren't revealed by degree or rite, but by the individual accepted

The laziness of the typical 'researcher' is that the Internet is the only 'investigation' the vast majority will ever do thereby repeating lies and half-truths they've stumbled across. For example, the Taxil Hoax pops up here at least once a month.

As for the secrets, they are communicated in trust from one individual to another and if the receiving individual is of such low character that he breaks that trust, that speaks volumes about him and nothing in particular about Freemasonry. In any case, what certainty do investiGooglers have that they've even come across the real deal?

Originally posted by awake1234
- and again, well reiterate that secret does not imply negativity on the part of the organization...and it is sheer denial to assert that such a world-wide organization does not have any secrets when even the BoyScouts of America do!?!?

I take it you don't read the OPs of any of the threads here on ATS. If you do, would you summarise them as a whole in general as presenting
a) A positive view on Freemasonry
b) A neutral view on Freemasonry
c) A negative view on Freemasonry

Please answer this question because that is what I am referring to

As for the 'secrets' (such as they are), it has been pointed out time and time and time again the form and extend of them. However, what you seem to be conveniently overlooking is that I challenged investiGooglers to put in the time to acquire the knowledge first-hand to determine its veracity rather than phoning it in from the comfort of their keyboards, to actually know what they're talking about instead of repeating facile lies, to investigate rather than rebroadcast.

If this relatively small time outlay is too difficult, why should those who have taken the steps passively accept the lies that are being spread?

Fitz

The antagonism between Freemasonry and the Church goes back a long time. One thing both organizations have in common is that they are both demonized by the uneducated.

Originally posted by wagnificent
When a significant portion of people who wield power and influence in our society belong to a "club" where they can meet in obscurity, I think people are justifiably suspicious.

Care to enlighten on what that "significant portion of people who wield power" might be and your source for such a claim? Links would be nice

Originally posted by wagnificent
Maybe they are plotting for world peace, or maybe they are just talking about geometry. I don't know, and I really don't care.

You care enough to feign suspicion.

Originally posted by wagnificent
As someone who stands to be affected by certain powerful individuals' decisions, it's simply common sense to be suspicious when those powerful individuals convene in places that are closed off to me.

Then you must have an issue with your national parliament. And your provincial one. And your municipal one. All these public structures are less available in their totality to the members of the public than Freemasonry is. Yet it's only the Freemasons that attract your suspicion. Why is that? It isn't like joining a Masonic lodge is difficult in any meaningful way.

No, it comes back to laziness, not wanting to actually put in the time, to throwing about facile spitballs precisely because it's easy. This isn't about investigation; this is about having some 'other' to scapegoat.

Sorry if the scapegoat doesn't take your assignation lying down.

Fitz

reply to post by Skyfloating


I was glad to see you return. Your Untersberg thread had a few questions for you (if you haven't made it back by there yet).

I consider myself to be fairly well educated, especially in the Christian faith. I see quite a bit to be demonized over in the Catholic Church. You can certainly see the Roman roots in the way it behaves politically.