Tens of thousands of people are marching in protest

These protests are based on a lack of appreciation that tax revenue is well below Govt expenditure,
either reduce spending, increase taxes or borrow or any combination thereof. the Govt is doing a bit
of all and imho doing well buying time.

The real reason to protest is why are Banks so important their failure is unacceptable they are now
more than a private sector industry they are a strategic 'utility' and as such they should be nationaliszed
if not then normal free market gutting is required and all related fraud , corruption prosecuted.

The Public sector are protesting against their reduction in security even though it's unsustainable , simply incredulous.

The day to protest will come but only if/when people realize that that aggregate demand has been artificially boosted by unprecedented credit expansion by Banking with Govt complicit and thus pin the reason for this
FUBAR predicament.

True, when will politicians form a protest and protest against the banks? Then the police can back the politicians, we can back the police, and the pyramid will be turned on its side.

Politicians protesting, now that would be a sight.

reply to post by Zngland

These protests are based on a lack of appreciation that tax revenue is well below Govt expenditure,
either reduce spending, increase taxes or borrow or any combination thereof. the Govt is doing a bit
of all and imho doing well buying time.

Sorry mate but that is a crock based on incorrect opinion. My Union like others have spent a lot of time getting informed information on economics. The fact that you do not realise how much time a modern union puts in to understand those economics shows the media coverage only lets you know what they want you to hear and that message is you must pay.

The real reason to protest is why are Banks so important their failure is unacceptable they are now
more than a private sector industry they are a strategic 'utility' and as such they should be nationaliszed

The reason banks are so important that they cannot fail is because we in the UK have moved from a nation that produces wealth to a service industry, a legacy from thatcher. Due to deregulation they now play with our money as well as theirs and when it goes wrong they use our money to pay for those errors. So the reason for the march was valid but the media is intent on you not knowing what that reason was and is.

if not then normal free market gutting is required and all related fraud , corruption prosecuted.

You call the unions naive and then talk about 'the free market'. Please explain what that is.

The Public sector are protesting against their reduction in security even though it's unsustainable , simply incredulous.

Again, false information that you have swallowed. The march included all unions, action groups, political groups and community action groups. The changes the tories are making to YOUR employment rights whether you are public sector or not will leave you begging daily for your job and taking any crap they wish to feed you and you will be expected to thank them for it.

At the same time they are stealing your pensions and savings. Wake up.

The day to protest will come but only if/when people realize that that aggregate demand has been artificially boosted by unprecedented credit expansion by Banking with Govt complicit and thus pin the reason for this

Keep waiting for that day. If you do not intend or have a plan to make that happen then that day will never happen. You have less than a year. Your plan is?

Originally posted by Wifibrains
True, when will politicians form a protest and protest against the banks? Then the police can back the politicians, we can back the police, and the pyramid will be turned on its side.

Politicians protesting, now that would be a sight.

edit on 21-10-2012 by Wifibrains because: (no reason given)

The politicians are the bankers and solicitors so if you are going to wait for action from them you will be waiting a long time, meanwhile they will be taking action to chain you into so much debt you will have no rights and no say.

No one can help you but you. Your only strength is in numbers and if you continue to expect someone else to save you then you are lost.

Originally posted by Extralien

TUC general secretary Brendan Barber said: "The evidence is mounting that austerity is failing. "More than 2.5 million people are out of work, a further three million are not working enough hours to make ends meet, and wages have been falling every month for the last three years."

Is there no end to the greed of the public sector?. Instead of austerity, the Conservative government have been raising spending every year. We have record deficits and are.printing like Zimbabwe to keep our overpaid public sector workers rich.

Yet grasping trade unionists want even more.

People have been leaving full-time employment in droves so they can get on the gravy train of "working tax credits". This means they are better off than the private-sector full-time workers who support their lazy sponging lifestyles.

We should have nothing but contempt for the people on these marches.

It was noticeable that on the march on Saturday I did not see many immigrants. They were mainly local people.
"They took our jobz".

reply to post by supermouse

Is there no end to the greed of the public sector?. Instead of austerity, the Conservative government have been raising spending every year. We have record deficits and are.printing like Zimbabwe to keep our overpaid public sector workers rich.

Please show me examples of public sector greed and show me all those rich nurses. Of course you may be referring to the banks bailed out with public money that awarded themselves huge bonuses.

The reason for printing money is to prop up the failing banks not the public sector workers and for your information many unions whose members are not in the public sector took part in the march as did many other groups so your argument fails. I have no idea on what you base your argument on but it is certainly not reality.

Yet grasping trade unionists want even more.

The unions represent their members and they are people. They actually support and give a voice to its members the ballot box and politicians refuse to listen too.

The only grasping greedy self obsessed people I see are multinationals not paying taxes, politicians building their own self interested careers filling their bulging bank accounts in the process. The rich stealing from the poor to buy more Bentleys.

People have been leaving full-time employment in droves so they can get on the gravy train of "working tax credits". This means they are better off than the private-sector full-time workers who support their lazy sponging lifestyles.

The most ridiculous statement you have made yet. The march was to stop the cuts. Cuts in pay, pensions and JOBS.

Do you really see unemployment as a career move? Really? I cannot believe you are serious and if you are it is proof there has been too many cuts in education already.

We should have nothing but contempt for the people on these marches.

Fair enough because being one of those people I have nothing but contempt for your ignorance.

reply to post by dr treg

It was noticeable that on the march on Saturday I did not see many immigrants. They were mainly local people.
"They took our jobz".

What a crock

Explain what you mean by immigrants and local people. Then describe what they look like.

Originally posted by colin42
Just watched a BBC news interview with a so called economist. Bearing in mind the BBC is paid for by the public purse, OUR money. Why is it nowadays you only get experts from the government’s side and never a balanced argument as was insisted upon in the past?

This economist has a right to his view but I have attended meetings with speakers who are just as educated in economics that tell a very different version of the affects of austerity and they have today’s failing markets in the UK to back them up.

Given that the march was organised by a union that represents people who are paid from the public purse and therefore OUR money, isn't that a little bit of an ironic comment? I work in the private sector and had two successive years of pay freezes before a pay cut this year. My final salary pension was killed off this year and ironically Unison were brought in to sign it off - no fanfare, no communication, no mention of any type of demonstration, they just signed it off.

reply to post by something wicked

Given that the march was organised by a union that represents people who are paid from the public purse and therefore OUR money, isn't that a little bit of an ironic comment?

Wrong TUC

I work in the private sector and had two successive years of pay freezes before a pay cut this year.

So why was you not on the march?

My final salary pension was killed off this year and ironically Unison were brought in to sign it off - no fanfare, no communication, no mention of any type of demonstration, they just signed it off.

Really. I am interested and want to hear more. Please give details as I have never heard of any union doing as you described.

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by something wicked

 

Given that the march was organised by a union that represents people who are paid from the public purse and therefore OUR money, isn't that a little bit of an ironic comment?

Wrong TUC

I work in the private sector and had two successive years of pay freezes before a pay cut this year.

So why was you not on the march?

My final salary pension was killed off this year and ironically Unison were brought in to sign it off - no fanfare, no communication, no mention of any type of demonstration, they just signed it off.

Really. I am interested and want to hear more. Please give details as I have never heard of any union doing as you described.

Apologies, apart from Socialist Worker placards I only saw Unison signs

Why was I not on the march? Why should I demonstrate that public sector workers should get pay rises and keep a final salary pension which ultimately comes out of my taxes when in the slightly more realistic world of the private sector these benefits are being lost? I would be marching to give my money away.

I can't really give you more details without divulging more personal information about myself than I'm willing to - sorry, you'll have to take my word on that.

reply to post by something wicked

Why was I not on the march? Why should I demonstrate that public sector workers should get pay rises and keep a final salary pension which ultimately comes out of my taxes when in the slightly more realistic world of the private sector these benefits are being lost? I would be marching to give my money away.

Why you insist on repeating something I have clearly shown to be wrong is beyond me.

The march consisted of many groups not just public sector or even just unions.

What you go on to describe is a race to the bottom not a 'future that works' or even a fair deal.

A little history for you. When the private sector was doing well those in the public sector accepted less wages compared to the private sector precisely because they had a pension, leave and a certain amount of job security

You cannot blame the public sector workers for the short sighted views of those in your group. It is a fact that union activity is less in the private sector than public showing you are not even prepared to stand up and fight to keep your rights and you lost them because of it.

Don’t get me wrong I fully understand how this happened but to lay the blame on the public sector is just wrong.

Your attitude is what the government and private industry want and have taken great pains to school you in. The Libor theft of all of our pensions/mortgages and savings is where your anger should be directed not at a group that is being oppressed by the same thieving groups that oppresses yours.

I see here a few talking about a union as if it is separate entity. Unions are made up of us, the activists part of the workforce. The members decide what the union does and does not do and it is the support of its members that empowers it to carry out that mandate.

Join a union where your vote counts unlike in this corrupt political system. Get active in your union where you do not need the correct school tie to make a difference. In fact any union worth its salt welcomes members from all groups, classes and political persuasions because that is what gives it power and if your union is not like this then join it and get active to make those changes.

I can't really give you more details without divulging more personal information about myself than I'm willing to - sorry, you'll have to take my word on that.

I understand your need for privacy and it was not that information I was asking for. If Unison did as you say there would be a public outcry that you should be able to link too.

Until you do that and I don’t mean this as an insult, I wont take your word for it.

As for why you should have marched given what you say about your pay, pensions that is also the case in the public sector I will quote from Lord of The Rings.

'Because you are part of this world, arent you?'

reply to post by colin42


Your post was to long to do a straight reply to.

You will have seen in this thread people also on the march and from their comments the people they saw were people in the public sector. Sorry if the people saying that were only a subset.

Actually you have made an assumption that as I work in the private sector I get paid more than people in the public one - based on a similar job type, skills and experience, that is not the case so please don't make such assumptions.

Why would I not join that march? Why would I think that the fudge up left by the last government that seemed to run the country on a credit card can suddenly and maigically be removed? The labour government created public sector jobs for which there wasn't any money - who should I march against for their stupidity? I understand the greed of the banks, and I understand the Libor issue, they are part of what caused the problem, not all of it.

My experience with unions has been negative, maybe yours hasn't, when I see the attitude of some union leaders such as Bob Crowe I find your suggestion that 'your vote counts' a little confusing - he makes clear that it's his opinion that counts.

As for the last part, the only way I could 'prove' to you Unisons involvement with killing off the final salary pension would mean you seeing information from either a corporate mail to me, or information off a private intranet, neither of which I am inclined to do. I appreciate you therefore think I'm lying, not much I can do about that.

reply to post by something wicked

You will have seen in this thread people also on the march and from their comments the people they saw were people in the public sector. Sorry if the people saying that were only a subset.

That is how you interpreted it. My union and it members are not public sector and neither was many others. Looks like you are going to insist otherwise though.

Actually you have made an assumption that as I work in the private sector I get paid more than people in the public one - based on a similar job type, skills and experience, that is not the case so please don't make such assumptions.

Nope that is your assumption. The market place has changed over the last few years and ALL wages have fallen by an average of 20% in 3 years. I was explaining why the public sector pensions are not worker theft, it is paid for out of contributions and not your taxes.

Why would I not join that march? Why would I think that the fudge up left by the last government that seemed to run the country on a credit card can suddenly and maigically be removed? The labour government created public sector jobs for which there wasn't any money - who should I march against for their stupidity? I understand the greed of the banks, and I understand the Libor issue, they are part of what caused the problem, not all of it.

Do you think I support the labour government? Most trade unionists don’t and see blair and brown as traitors and liars every bit as much as the tory version.

You should have joined us and marched against those that expect us, you me and every other wage earner that they expect to pay for their excesses with our future and the futures of our children while they sip champagne and award themselves huge bonuses

My experience with unions has been negative, maybe yours hasn't, when I see the attitude of some union leaders such as Bob Crowe I find your suggestion that 'your vote counts' a little confusing - he makes clear that it's his opinion that counts.

I am no fan of crow but you must realise you are shown what the media want you to see. He is taking the government to the European court for the right to association like every other civilised country within the EU. The press likened him to gaddafi, binladen and other terrorists. Are you telling me that is a fair representation?

I appreciate you therefore think I'm lying, not much I can do about that.

Jesus mate. I went to great pains to point out I am not calling you a liar but I am not going to take your word for a claim that I cannot verify. That is very different.

reply to post by Extralien


Britain and the nations of Europe could end all their problems if they kicked out non-Europeans from Europe. Socialism and Communism cannot survive immigration, let alone immigrants of different race/culture. Because Socialism and Communism need a high degree of social cohesion in order to be effective. Forcing genocide, err multiculturalism, on such nations will only lead to their collapse as multiculturalism has been proven to be the number one killer of any sense of community. And assistance given to immigrants takes away and assistance that would of been given to the needy in the West.

reply to post by colin42


Well, it's kind of hard to debate when you just keep essentially saying I'm wrong whereas I was merely voicing an opinion. What I'm not going to do is lay all of the troubles at the feet of this government or the next when that isn't actually going to solve anything.

Your point about Bob Crowe - "I am no fan of crow but you must realise you are shown what the media want you to see." - I see the quotes he keeps making and context in which he makes them. You could read the Socialist Worker which I'm sure puts its own spin on them, does that make them more right? No media is without an agenda, it just depends which agenda you want to read.

Your comment - "Jesus mate. I went to great pains to point out I am not calling you a liar", my comment was based on you saying "Until you do that and I don’t mean this as an insult, I wont take your word for it." Seems fairly straightforward.

Your comment - "Don’t get me wrong I fully understand how this happened but to lay the blame on the public sector is just wrong.

Your attitude is what the government and private industry want and have taken great pains to school you in. The Libor theft of all of our pensions/mortgages and savings is where your anger should be directed not at a group that is being oppressed by the same thieving groups that oppresses yours. "

No-one has schooled me in this, and I have no anger at anyone in the public sector. For what it's worth I worked in it for many years until the public sector involved chose to outsource the area of its business I work in. My point - and if you like it or not I think it's right - is that the public sector needs to face up to the realities that everyone else has to deal with. As you say you work in the private sector though, I'm sure you have no real argument about that.

Originally posted by korathin
reply to post by Extralien

 

Britain and the nations of Europe could end all their problems if they kicked out non-Europeans from Europe. Socialism and Communism cannot survive immigration, let alone immigrants of different race/culture. Because Socialism and Communism need a high degree of social cohesion in order to be effective. Forcing genocide, err multiculturalism, on such nations will only lead to their collapse as multiculturalism has been proven to be the number one killer of any sense of community. And assistance given to immigrants takes away and assistance that would of been given to the needy in the West.

edit on 22-10-2012 by korathin because: (no reason given)

Britain is neither socialist or communist - it is however part of the Commonwealth which is far wider than Europe. I watched a fascinating documentary yesterday about the people of Asian origin who were forced out of Uganda by the Amin regime and the success they have built in Britain - was a moment I thought showed that although there were many racist scum at the time opposed to it, it helped bring about a stronger country.

I think from your location you are in Philadelphia? Maybe for a different thread, but unless your family roots are indigenous you might want to consider why you are giving opinions you don't follow yourself.

reply to post by something wicked

No-one has schooled me in this, and I have no anger at anyone in the public sector. For what it's worth I worked in it for many years until the public sector involved chose to outsource the area of its business I work in. My point - and if you like it or not I think it's right - is that the public sector needs to face up to the realities that everyone else has to deal with. As you say you work in the private sector though, I'm sure you have no real argument about that.

Look if you don’t want me to keep saying you are wrong then please stop replying to me with generalisations and misconceptions.

I too spent many years in the public sector. Your case may be different but I doubt it. My public sector group decided to outsource my job because thatcher demanded it. We were TUPEd across to the private sector and were aware of the realities and in fact being lower paid than the private sector equivalents had faced those realities many more times than those with fatter pay packets.

If by those in the public sector having to face up to the realities everyone else has to means bending over and not just taking it but thanking the man for doing it I reserve the right to fight against it and keep my virginity.

I don’t blame the governments or the bankers. I blame us, the people that let them do it uncontested and this march was about standing up and saying no more.

Maybe you are not ready to join the fight back as we have only had 3% of the cuts so far lets hope you change your mind before the other 97% drives you into the third world

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by supermouse

 

lol:

Please show me examples of public sector greed and show me all those rich nurses. Of course you may be referring to the banks bailed out with public money that awarded themselves huge bonuses.

E.g. Public sector robbed private sector pensions to give themselves huge inflation-proof handouts. Then they printed billions to increase inflation, so that the gap between their huge pensions and the poor private sector grew even larger.

MPs buy themselves houses with taxpayers' money and rent them to one another.

Some nurses "earn" over 100,000 a year plus big pensions, long holidays and even charge hospital visitors extra for food while they gorge themselves in a subsidized trough.

The list is endless...

The reason for printing money is to prop up the failing banks not the public sector workers and for your information many unions whose members are not in the public sector took part in the march as did many other groups so your argument fails. I have no idea on what you base your argument on but it is certainly not reality.

If this were true then the banks would get the money from the government bonds they sell instead of the grasping public sector workers

The unions represent their members and they are people. They actually support and give a voice to its members the ballot box and politicians refuse to listen too.

The unions are funded by tax money and then, in a circle of corruption, use some of the tax money to influence the government to give them more handouts.

. The rich stealing from the poor to buy more Bentleys.

This makes no sense. The public sector are better paid than the private sector. To increase equality you would be calling for government cuts and lower taxes.

lol:

I cannot believe you are serious and if you are it is proof there has been too many cuts in education already.

I didn't want to be a burden on the taxpayer, so I chose to go to public school. So, I got an excellent education and government cuts (had there been any) wouldn't have affected me.

I really don't understand how people can be protesting austerity when there hasn't been any austerity. Tax, spending and borrowing keep increasing. This has to stop.

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by something wicked

 

No-one has schooled me in this, and I have no anger at anyone in the public sector. For what it's worth I worked in it for many years until the public sector involved chose to outsource the area of its business I work in. My point - and if you like it or not I think it's right - is that the public sector needs to face up to the realities that everyone else has to deal with. As you say you work in the private sector though, I'm sure you have no real argument about that.

Look if you don’t want me to keep saying you are wrong then please stop replying to me with generalisations and misconceptions.

I too spent many years in the public sector. Your case may be different but I doubt it. My public sector group decided to outsource my job because thatcher demanded it. We were TUPEd across to the private sector and were aware of the realities and in fact being lower paid than the private sector equivalents had faced those realities many more times than those with fatter pay packets.

If by those in the public sector having to face up to the realities everyone else has to means bending over and not just taking it but thanking the man for doing it I reserve the right to fight against it and keep my virginity.

I don’t blame the governments or the bankers. I blame us, the people that let them do it uncontested and this march was about standing up and saying no more.

Maybe you are not ready to join the fight back as we have only had 3% of the cuts so far lets hope you change your mind before the other 97% drives you into the third world

Then please stop replying with genarlisations and your own opinion. Comments such as "If by those in the public sector having to face up to the realities everyone else has to means bending over and not just taking it but thanking the man for doing it I reserve the right to fight against it and keep my virginity." mean what? Avoiding reality?????? I think that's what you mean.

Comments like "we have only had 3% of the cuts so far" - please elucidate or admit that is rhetoric.