Whats the deal with the SU47?

I Don't hate Americans I'm angry at them for not knowing thier Constitution they don't even ubderstand the "Global Elite" created a group called the Illuminati and then another organazation called the "Masonic Order" and they are slowly but surely putting the FINAL touches on their "NWO TAKEOVER" anyways the first A2A shoot down in the first gulf war was an Iraqi MiG 25 that shot down a F-18, and well the whole war in Iraq is about taking thier oil and giving it to Isreal, Zarqawi figure doesn't exist it's all lies no high jakers on those planes on 9/11 they were remote controlled into the WTC here this is some of the people who know whats going on in Iraq read it in chronilogical order and you'll understand it beter that skipping his articles I'll post them in a part1 part 2 -etc way www.geocities.com...

[edit on 20-11-2004 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 20-11-2004 by SiberianTiger]

Dima, you have made a mistake with BVR. It is exactly as others have told you, 'beyond visual range' as in ' a great distance away beyond where the human eyeball can see unassisted'. That is plain fact and you can look it up on any combat aircraft site.
The capability which you describe is known, I believe, as 'off boresight capability' not BVR.

Its like where people get mixed up with 'Angle of attack' which is merely an aerodynamic term which describes the attitude of an aircraft travelling forwards, (an angle of attack of 0 degrees means flying straight and level while 60 degrees means the nose is pointing 60 degrees off from the actual direction of travel, not an actual angle at which an attack is carried out or a measure of agility as I have seen it described.

Originally posted by Dima
u say that the russians develpoped the formula's

but, hello, everything depends on the formula holy crak, are u messed up, yea so they came up with the formula=they came up with stealth simple as that lol

No - Russia DID NOT invent the formulas! They simplified them.

Think of it like this:

the original is something like 4X+6X=2Y+3Y

then the Russians made it into 10X=5Y, thus 2X=Y

Obviously it is a lot more complicated then basic algabra, but that is the "jist" of what they did.

Again, for what ever reason, the Russians DID NOT UNDERSTAND that it could be used to make stealth. The AMERICANS DID. And it was THE AMERICANS who are the ONLY ONES IN THE WORLD to deploy an operational aircraft based on these ideas.

Not saying these Russian planes arent as good as u say they are, but many Soviet seeming enginnering marvels had great flaws. Like one of the MiGs had no ejection whih make me kinda scared if i was flying it. one of there supposed long range nuclear missles rarely launched correctly.

Dima, Waynos stated correctly. BVR and off-boresight targeting are very different capabilities.

Off boresight targeting is not particularly important in BVR engagements, because the missile using inertial guidance and is getting it's targeting data from the AC via datalink in the first phase of flight. When the target comes within the missile's radar range, it transitions to internal guidance from it's own radar. The current US BVR missile is the AIM120C AMRAAM. The Russian equivalent is the AA-12 Adder.

Off-boresight capabilities become important in close range encounters. This is when you want to be able to launch even when you are not pointed at the target. These missiles are IR guided, with gimballed seekers, and are aimed via a helmet mounted cuing system. the current US version is the AIM-9X, and the Russian equivalent is the AA-11 Archer. These are short range systems, WVR.

A couple other points should be made. First wrt stealth, the SR-71 was not a particularly stealthy AC. What is was was a fast and high flyer. The Russians saw them on the flyovers, they just couldn't do anything about them. By the time an intercept could be scrambled, or a SAM could be launched, the Blackbird was out of range. As the USSR improved her SAM's the US decided that the flyovers were getting too risky, so we stopped.

But I know for a fact that ARTCC radars routinely picked them up in the US. But they were not squawking, so no data was available to the controllers. But when you have a 5-minute vector that goes clear across your radar, you know it's not a passenger plane. Ask any veteran Air Traffic Controller if he's ever seen an SR-71 on his screen.

Dima, another correction-the Cope India excersizes were with F-15C's not E's. They operated without AWACS support and with reduced radar range. They were outnumbered and yes, the AIM120's were restricted to 1/3 range. I posted some detail about this on the Cope India thread. But if you think the excersizes were in any way representative of what would happen in a real engagement, you don't understand DACT.

It does not serve any purpose to compare an F-22 against an SU-47, or any other Russian platform that will not be built. Keep in mind that F-22's will not operate independently, they will have AWACS support and datalinks, so they are not dependent on onboard systems for targeting. AIM120C's have a datalink also, so they can get targeting data from any compatible AC, including the AWACS. One single AC in the squadron can fly out ahead and greatly expand the range of the AWACS operating in the rear. All AC in the squadron will share the same data. So Raptor pilots need not have their radars active to target opposing forces at BVR ranges.

As far as capabilities, in IOT&E testing, a single Raptor took out 5 F-15E's equippedwith AESA radars. The F-22 just went down the line and picked them off one at a time. The F-15's never saw the Raptor. Any Flanker pilot that decides to play with a Raptor will meet the same fate.

not necessarily, the flankers have better radar than an F-15E or C it doesn't matter, the Zhuk-M i think it is, is regarded as the most powerful radar in the world

and American Mad Man, give me a site that says that the russian scientists didn't understand the formula, maybe they just figured out that there were too many flaws in it, and decided to go and research on something else

since stealth affects the actual attrivbutes of the plane(meaning maneuverability, ceiling, and speed etc.) since these tings were the most important things for them(because they always thought about dogfighting situations) i think they decided that they'll keep reasearching until they find a suitable source of stealth for their aircraft

thats my opinion

Originally posted by Dima
not necessarily, the flankers have better radar than an F-15E or C it doesn't matter, the Zhuk-M i think it is, is regarded as the most powerful radar in the world

Really? That's amazing! Geez, I kind of hate to break this to you, but the Zhuk-M is 80's technology.

The Zhuk-M, which was developed for the Mig-29M, had a look-ahead range of about 130km, and could engage 2-4 targets. The Flankers that India flies have the updated version, the Phazotron N-011M. The antenna is a little bigger, because there is more room in the nose of the Flankers, but the components and parameters are about the same. Even if the range was 200 km, they still wouldn't see the Raptor, because there is nothing to see.

The AN/APG 70's that are on the F-15E have a range in excess of 100 Miles (actual range is classified), and I won't even go into the AN/APG-77 on the Raptors, because that is even more classified, but you can rest assured it is far superior to the N-011M.

Like I said, the Flankers would never see the Raptor. That's just the way it is.

Your enthusiam is admirable, and there is nothing wrong with being a little Nationalistic, but you leave yourself wide open to criticism when you make uninformed statements like the one here.

SiberianTiger - blah blah blah, we have all heard that before: America didn't land on the moon, the goverment planned 9-11, NWO.

and if the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 really makes you think that way then your an idiot, Michael Moore is a complete idiot, You should at least watch the other side of the story, watch fahrenhype 9/11 and maybe that will make you think a little, michael moore tisted the truth, WHY: to make money and spread his rediculous views apon people like you.

engineer, u do know that there are threedifferent frequencies that rdar can operate, i'm not really competely sure because i haven't studied this myself, but i saw someone on these forums talking about it, well, there's a high frequency and a low frequecy and a medium frequency too

u can set the radars to different frequency's, now, if u put it at the large frequency, its the most innacuarate, but i think it has ht longest range, then medium, many scientists say that if u switch the rdar to medium, u'll have a lower range, but will be better able to react to stealthy aircraft, and the low frequency(or band, it might be called band)u can see stelth aircraft relatively esayily, but the range is even shorter

also, i think that all these tests and the claims made by Lockheed about its incredibly stealth features is BS, they say all this junk jus to get more money for the project, but i am sure that the F-22 is telathy, but not as stealthy as everyone says, invisible my ass lol, sry couldn't help myself

no, just no, the radar on the F-15 isn't the best, that american bravado again, lol, i have heard multiple times that russian aircraft radar is the bet, by many agencies and tings like that, oh wait, i jus remembered, the radar thats on the MiG 1.42, can engage 20 targets suimultaneously and can track i think it was 36,i don't know, i'll try to find the site

tootles

Have you seen Faren hite 9/11 ?

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
Have you seen Faren hite 9/11 ?

What exactly does the movie have to do with the discussion at hand regarding the SU 47? Please stay on topic.

Thanks
FredT

Originally posted by Dima
engineer, u do know that there are threedifferent frequencies that rdar can operate, i'm not really competely sure because i haven't studied this myself, but i saw someone on these forums talking about it, well, there's a high frequency and a low frequecy and a medium frequency too

u can set the radars to different frequency's, now, if u put it at the large frequency, its the most innacuarate, but i think it has ht longest range, then medium, many scientists say that if u switch the rdar to medium, u'll have a lower range, but will be better able to react to stealthy aircraft, and the low frequency(or band, it might be called band)u can see stelth aircraft relatively esayily, but the range is even shorter

also, i think that all these tests and the claims made by Lockheed about its incredibly stealth features is BS, they say all this junk jus to get more money for the project, but i am sure that the F-22 is telathy, but not as stealthy as everyone says, invisible my ass lol, sry couldn't help myself

no, just no, the radar on the F-15 isn't the best, that american bravado again, lol, i have heard multiple times that russian aircraft radar is the bet, by many agencies and tings like that, oh wait, i jus remembered, the radar thats on the MiG 1.42, can engage 20 targets suimultaneously and can track i think it was 36,i don't know, i'll try to find the site

tootles

Dima, I think it's great that you are so enthusiastic about Russian technology. Really, I do. I have a lot of respect for it myself. Forget that you are completely clueless about current aerospace tech, I don't hold that against you. The best Russian Radar today is the one I mentioned.

But in case no one bothered to tell you, the cold war is over. Rather than live in the past, you may want to consider the present. Russia and the USA are not adversaries, we are allies.

I come from a small town in Alaska. It may be something like your town in Moldova, I don't know. I know my town is very beautiful, I'm sure your town is also.

You may make some friends here, I don't know. But if you go on as you are, with idiotic and contentious posts, I wonder what the value will be. If I was you, I would take advantage of your opportunity to learn something. You might surprise yourself.

[edit on 23-11-2004 by engineer]

I Didn't know we were not enemies www.joevialls.co.uk... www.joevialls.co.uk...

[edit on 23-11-2004 by SiberianTiger]

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
I Didn't know we were not enemies www.joevialls.co.uk... www.joevialls.co.uk...

Siberian Tiger:

I will ask you again to stay on topic in this thread. I will not ask again.

Thanks
FredT

Originally posted by Dima
no, just no, the radar on the F-15 isn't the best, that american bravado again, lol, i have heard multiple times that russian aircraft radar is the bet, by many agencies and tings like that, oh wait, i jus remembered, the radar thats on the MiG 1.42, can engage 20 targets suimultaneously and can track i think it was 36,i don't know, i'll try to find the site

tootles

Well, whatever. There is no such production AC as the MiG 1.42. It was just a lead in to the Pak-FA, just a TD.

Son, it doesn't really matter what you've heard. That radar was the N011-M. Actually, it tracks 20 and targets 8. Best scan is 200 km up. period.

wrt your previous claim, the Zhuk-M is not "the most powerful radar in the world" This has nothing to do with "American bravado", okay? It's about facts.

FredT, go ahead and deduct another 20. I'm getting a bellyache.

Originally posted by Dima
radar thats on the MiG 1.42, can engage 20 targets suimultaneously and can track i think it was 36,i don't know, i'll try to find the site

MIG MFI:
forward-facing radar N-014 phased array with electronically-scanned antenna - simultaneous tracking of 40 and engagement of up to 20 targets; effective range against a fighter-sized target: 420km, extended AS capability, ground mapping capability; MIG MFI also has rearward-facing radar N-012.

wat the hell engineer, Fred T, go deduct another twenty, for what, what have i done except other than trying to survive this american onslaught, and titus is right, tracking of 40 and engaging of 20

Russia's best radar is the N-011M, as I stated previously. Wishing it was otherwise changes nothing.

The current Russian radar systems for fighters have their origins in the year 1988 and in radar types N010 Zhuk for the MiG-29M and type N011 for Su-27M. These were the first Russian multi-mode radar systems capable of tracking both air and ground targets. They also facilitated map displays, zooming as well as terrain-following. The simultaneous target tracking capacity has risen from one to four and, in certain cases, to six. The NIIP head designer, Tamerlan Bekirbayev developed the radar to the Su-27M. NIIR was responsible for the MiG-29M radar under Yuri Guskov.

NIIP currently suspended two R&D projects: Zaslon-M radar for the MiG-31M interceptor and N014 radar for Mikoyan's 1.42 prototype. The company still has N011 and N011M radar systems for the Su-35/Su-37 aircraft on its fighter radar program. However, Phazotron has invested a lot in order to become the radar manufacturer for the Su-27 family of aircraft.

www.sci.fi...

engineer, you over 13, but you dont over 14.

Wow, this thread went wwwaaaayyy off track. Let me just simplify this thread: Russians always had the better theories and were able to design more advanced technologies, the Americans always had better and more organized implementation of technologies which they designed.