So how do you explain existence ?

reply to post by randyvs

While still struggling with biological phenomena. Like a thoroughbred race horse out of nowhere, being born with a heart that was two and half times the size of any other horse, ever recorded in human history. Secretariat's heart was found to be such, at his autopsy. Yes all big money horses get autopsies.

The bold is flat out wrong. Other horses have been found with the trait.

n the fall of 1989, Secretariat was afflicted with laminitis--a painful and often incurable hoof condition. When his condition failed to improve after a month of treatment, he was euthanized on October 4 at the age of 19.[32] Popular both as a Triple Crown champion and in retirement, Secretariat was mourned by millions and buried at Claiborne Farm in Paris, Kentucky, given the rare honor of being buried whole; usually only the head, heart, and hooves of a winning race horse are buried, and the rest of the body is cremated.

A necropsy revealed his heart was significantly larger than that of an ordinary horse.[31] An extremely large heart is a trait that occasionally occurs in Thoroughbreds, linked to a genetic condition passed down via the dam line, known as the "x-factor".[31][33][34][35] The x-factor can be traced to the historic racehorse Eclipse, which was necropsied after his death in 1789. Because Eclipse's heart appeared to be much larger than other horses, it was weighed, and found to be 14 pounds (6.4 kg), almost twice the normal weight. Eclipse is believed to have passed the trait on via his daughters, and pedigree research verified that Secretariat traces in his dam line to a daughter of Eclipse.[31] In the 20th century, the heart of Phar Lap was weighed and also documented to be 6.35 kilograms (14.0 lb),[36] or essentially the same size as that of Eclipse.

At the time of Secretariat's death, the veterinarian who performed the necropsy, Dr. Thomas Swerczek, head pathologist at the University of Kentucky, did not weigh Secretariat's heart, but stated, "We just stood there in stunned silence. We couldn’t believe it. The heart was perfect. There were no problems with it. It was just this huge engine."[32] Later, Swerczek also performed a necropsy on Sham, who died in 1993. Swerczek did weigh Sham's heart, and it was 18 pounds (8.2 kg). Based on Sham's measurement, and having necropsied both horses, he estimated Secretariat's heart probably weighed 22 pounds (10.0 kg),[31] or about two-and-three-quarters times as large as that of the average horse. Adding to his greatness, in at least 14 of his 21 races Secretariat had to come from the back of the pack running on the outside; i.e., a longer distance than for any of the other horses.

It wasn't a sudden change, it was a trait that was passed down, but isn't dominant in the species. It's been found before. It just isn't a dominant trait. BTW Secretariat's heart size was ESTIMATED as they gave him a regular burial. It was never actually weighed. Nice try. You know what they say about assumptions.

Secretariat's heart is a good example of evolution. Horses were not race horses before humans start doing it. When horses have favorable traits, their DNA is used again. This is "natural selection", as humans control the breeding and the better racing traits are passed down while the weaker genes are not. Huge heart would definitely be helpful in sustaining a fast running pace and I'd bet that the more we use those genes, the more often the trait will come up. I'd bet that if we bred them for millions of years, the larger heart would be common. But yes, Secretariat is proof of evolution. Bet you didn't realize that when you thought of the example.

Originally posted by GafferUK1981
reply to post by randyvs

 

I have a question for you randy, lets ignore all evidence and say for a moment that the bible is correct. Lets say there is a god and he dropped Adam and Eve on earth a few thousand years ago. What I would like to know is if we all trace back to Adam and Eve why are there so many different races of human on our planet?

We have black, white, oriental, Asian etc. how come they're so much variation if we all originate from the same two people? Could it be due to some form of let's say... Evolution?

edit on 29-10-2012 by GafferUK1981 because: (no reason given)

In all of our reciprocals have I ever denied evolution may exist ? Now on what scale it exists on and what level it is capable of, I don't know. I'm no scientist. I do know that anyone claiming there is no God ? Doesn't even understand the claim they are making.

I'm like this about our Father in Heaven. I'm convinced beyond the norm, my belief is complete and was founded thru my own inquisition as a youngster born to a Mom and Dad that pushed me, in absolutely no direction spiritually.

What I chose to believe thru years of, " testing the waters, " on my own. is where I am now. Atheism was the first thing tossed by my sense of the world I was a part of.. Once I saw that there is power in the name of Jesus Christ like no other. I decided it certainly wouldn't be a bad idea to follow him. As he certainly doesn't seem to be a liar. I accepted Christ as my Savior and have loved life ever since. I don't believe I've ever had a bad day.

So when there are questions I don't understand, or if I seem without an answer for contradictions that may only seem to be there? Because the limitations of text as we certainly know them to be ? It just means at the most, that I'm waiting on the truth. And it will come at no set time or pace or place. So what you see as something to ridicule and insult me with. For me just really makes me giggle, because it's so predictable and so cliche and puts you at such a disadvantage. Top it all off you don';t even realize what a bug on my wind sheild you are ? I don't mean that spitefully at all. Only by way of comparison.

As per your question ? That is all I can say. Where you may demand a knowledge ? May be the same place I'm waiting for the truth. My experience is that it always does show and I know it when it arrives. Because it fits the puzzle perfectly.

Originally posted by nv4711
Did Adam and Eve have a navel? (as in "belly button") Did Adam have testicles and produce semen? Did Eve have a uterus? If so, why? That wouldn't make any sense at all.

Randy? Enlighten me please.

From my understanding of the degeneration of Mankind since that time that can be seen in life span and also what is refered to as " sight ". They may have possessed completely different bodies from ours. Spiritual or maybe
physically immortal ?

Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by GafferUK1981
reply to post by randyvs

 

I have a question for you randy, lets ignore all evidence and say for a moment that the bible is correct. Lets say there is a god and he dropped Adam and Eve on earth a few thousand years ago. What I would like to know is if we all trace back to Adam and Eve why are there so many different races of human on our planet?

We have black, white, oriental, Asian etc. how come they're so much variation if we all originate from the same two people? Could it be due to some form of let's say... Evolution?

edit on 29-10-2012 by GafferUK1981 because: (no reason given)

In all of our reciprocals have I ever denied evolution may exist ? Now on what scale it exists on and what level it is capable of, I don't know. I'm no scientist. I do know that anyone claiming there is no God ? Doesn't even understand the claim they are making.

I'm like this about our Father in Heaven. I'm convinced beyond the norm, my belief is complete and was founded thru my own inquisition as a youngster born to a Mom and Dad that pushed me, in absolutely no direction spiritually.

What I chose to believe thru years of, " testing the waters, " on my own. is where I am now. Atheism was the first thing tossed by my sense of the world I was a part of.. Once I saw that there is power in the name of Jesus Christ like no other. I decided it certainly wouldn't be a bad idea to follow him. As he certainly doesn't seem to be a liar. I accepted Christ as my Savior and have loved life ever since. I don't believe I've ever had a bad day.

So when there are questions I don't understand, or if I seem without an answer for contradictions that may only seem to be there? Because the limitations of text as we certainly know them to be ? It just means at the most, that I'm waiting on the truth. And it will come at no set time or pace or place. So what you see as something to ridicule and insult me with. For me just really makes me giggle, because it's so predictable and so cliche and puts you at such a disadvantage. Top it all off you don';t even realize what a bug on my wind sheild you are ? I don't mean that spitefully at all. Only by way of comparison.

As per your question ? That is all I can say. Where you may demand a knowledge ? May be the same place I'm waiting for the truth. My experience is that it always does show and I know it when it arrives. Because it fits the puzzle perfectly.

edit on 29-10-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

And this pretty much concludes this thread.

In this one, and all other debates about God or no God, inevitably it comes to an impasse that is insurmountable. The real question is, does it matter? Randy has a belief that he thinks enriches his life and he (even though he asked the question) doesn't really need any answers, because he found answers that, for him, are sufficient.

Others, including myself, don't belief these answers and look elsewhere. That's why I said earlier, that "the horse died on Page 1" - the beliefs/facts/evidence/, are so incompatible to each other that it is foolish to think that there could ever be an agreement.

The good news is, we'll all going to find out at some point. I just hope it isn't the crazy Scientologists who got it right - I don't want to spend an eternity listening to Tom Cruise.

reply to post by Barcs


The bold is flat out wrong. Other horses have been found with the trait.

Well I wanted to check that last night. But I was so damn tired and the wife and Blah blah blah and whah whah whah So I just figured if it was wrong from what I've read ? Someone would catch it for sure in this forum so I was actually correct.

Thanx Barcs
I stand corrected

Bet you didn't realize that when you thought of the example.

Ha ha, You underestimate my consciousness like that Barcs ? Now that's insulting. But you would of paid for it..

reply to post by nv4711

The good news is, we'll all going to find out at some point. I just hope it isn't the crazy Scientologists who got it right - I don't want to spend an eternity listening to Tom Cruise.

Ok, you really caught me off guard here. You just made hell sound merciful..

Floored.

I agree also this thread is tapped out. No more from me.

reply to post by nv4711


The only difference between Scientology and Christianity is 2000 years. They're both man made religions and they're both incorrect.

I know we should let people believe in whatever they want to believe no matter how absurd and that would be fine if they kept it to themselves. The problem is these people are so deluded that they feel the whole world must also believe, they put pressure on government and the education system to teach their beliefs although they are completely unsubstantiated. Nothing should be taught to a child as a fact unless it is formed by reason and evidence. Telling a child there is a god is mental abuse in my book, a child is so susceptible at a young age but I guess that's why the religious get hold of em so young.

We've heard the stories of Catholics baptising Jewish children and then taking them from their families so they can 'teach' their religion.

We should just forget the whole mess and write religion off as a bad idea. You can feel good about yourself without being deluded, I do.

Originally posted by GafferUK1981
reply to post by nv4711

 

The only difference between Scientology and Christianity is 2000 years. They're both man made religions and they're both incorrect.

I know we should let people believe in whatever they want to believe no matter how absurd and that would be fine if they kept it to themselves. The problem is these people are so deluded that they feel the whole world must also believe, they put pressure on government and the education system to teach their beliefs although they are completely unsubstantiated. Nothing should be taught to a child as a fact unless it is formed by reason and evidence. Telling a child there is a god is mental abuse in my book, a child is so susceptible at a young age but I guess that's why the religious get hold of em so young.

We've heard the stories of Catholics baptising Jewish children and then taking them from their families so they can 'teach' their religion.

We should just forget the whole mess and write religion off as a bad idea. You can feel good about yourself without being deluded, I do.

I agree with you on all points. I just came to the conclusion that it is tedious to have a discussion with a religious person, more so with a fundamental christian/muslim/whatever.

I do however put my energy into resistance against the undue influence of religion in politics, education etc., where it affects society as a whole. I'm originally from Europe (in the US now for a good ten years). The fact that it is utterly impossible for a politician in the US to become President, if he were to say "I don't believe in any religion" makes me shake my head. It's a sad state of affairs.

While I don't normally single out any religion, since all of them are equally superstitious, I would however say that the Abrahamic religions (Judaism/Christianity/Islam) are especially dangerous. I don't think I have to provide evidence - just open a newspaper on any given day.

I'm convinced that the next great war will be over religion - in a sick case of selffulfilling prophecy. The death cult of the Abrahamic religions will make sure of it. Don't count on reason to prevent that, that's a hope I have given up on. They want their Armageddon, and they make damn sure they'll get it.

The only difference between Scientology and Christianity is 2000 years.

That is likely the most ignorant post I've ever seen on ATS. Congrads !

The last word .

reply to post by randyvs


Sorry, I want to have the last word



Sometimes I feel like Sheldon when posting on ATS

I have a video too:

reply to post by randyvs


Why is it? They're both man made, just cos one of them is the religion you choose to follow doesn't make any difference. You're religion is just as phony.

Sorry gents, but if god built a racehorse, this would be the one...

Bill Nack recalls asking the New York Steward, Francis Dunne, "Who's the greatest racehorse you've ever seen, Man O' War or Secretariat?" "Neither," said Dunne. "I saw Phar Lap".

www.youtube.com...

www.logans.com.au...

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum


I'd go for Frankel nowadays

Originally posted by GafferUK1981

I'd go for Frankel nowadays

I wonder if Frankel might be another "x factor" type horse?




I think the last word should go to Chief Isaac of Vanuatu. No one has ever put christianity into perspective better, or with more simple honesty IMO.

Over a cup of kava (prepared only by those who have been circumcised of course, to keep it "clean", no hint of superstition there...unless there is more to kava preparation than would appear), when asked by a christian if it might be a bit silly to expect John Frum to return after 80 years or so, responded.....

"You christians have been waiting for over 2,000 years for your savior to return..... and you still haven't given up hope....."

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum


If I remember right is John Frum a cargo cult messiah?

The way I see it Christianity like all religions is a mental virus, it started a long time ago and has spread like wildfire, I laugh when people tell me so many billions believe so it must be true. It only takes the very first person who created the religion to be wrong for all the successive followers to be wrong, no matter how many choose to follow.

I am so amused at looking at religion from the outside and you have the Jews who claim they are correct, the muslims claim they are correct and so do the christians. Going by their own logic at least two of them have to be wrong and if two are wrong it's not so much of a stretch to figure out that they are all wrong.

reply to post by GafferUK1981


So how do you explain existence ?

What's really amusing about this thread is knowing someone would prove to be the perfect example of what I was talking about..

reply to post by randyvs


Well randy as an atheist I will freely admit we don't have all the answers but under no circumstances is it ever applicable to give the answer "god did it", that's just lazy and completely untrue.

The big bang theory fits the start of the universe but we still have lots to learn there.

One cast iron fact though is evolution, we know without a shadow of a doubt than we have evolved over the lat few billion years from micro organisms into homosapians. We know that 2 people (Adam and Eve) weren't dropped on the earth as the start of our species, it never happened.

We know that basic life can live in very harsh environments, all life on earth needs to exist is water and nutrients. We may learn that life can evolve without water on other planets and moons etc.

We have learned so much about ourselves in the last 100 years that has blown the notion of a god out of the water. Over the next 100 years we may know all the answers but it's safe to say there was no god involved. As I've covered before the existence of a god creates far more questions than answers, he would have had to be created himself.

The future is exciting randy, we will learn so much more about the universe and our evolution and at some point religion will be merely a historical theory that was proved incorrect.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

The future is exciting randy,

I doubt
someone who's been around a mere forty years and believes he has it all figured out ? And spends his time daydreaming about dictating to everyone else what they should believe ? Wno pretty much thinks he's the know all, tell all, shell answer man. Indirectly proclaiming himself as God ?

Can expect to be taken seriously.

reply to post by randyvs


I don't claim to be a god, god's do not exist.

You have just proved to me just how stupid you are, you subtracted 1981 from 2012 and came up with 40 when I am actually 31. How poor us your intelligence?