So how do you explain existence ?

"Science can't explain that...ergo god did it!"

Why do we have to go over the same god of the gaps argument over and over and over and over and over and over and over again? People used that nonsense for thousands of years for stuff they couldn't explain...plagues, floods, comets, fire, the sun...all were at one point claimed to be caused by god because people couldn't explain it. And guess what, they were WRONG every single time. In fact, not a single thing has ever been proven to be caused by god(s).

How many thousands of years do we have to continue this nonsense?

Insanity is defined as trying the same thing over and over and over again expecting different outcomes. No offense, but this comes pretty close...

reply to post by GafferUK1981

Who created him?

This has been covered. Being redundant isn't helping your position. I again think you must have some kind of fear.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Not the God of the gaps again ? Our Heavenly Father is God. Period.
No one has to explain or prove it.
Believe it or don't.[ all at your own risk of course.

reply to post by randyvs


It hasn't been covered though had it, it's been avoided because it destroys your argument entirely.

Look I know your desperate for there to be a god, so much so that you will dismiss proven facts because they destroy your outdated thinking.

You need to take a step back and consider that there may not be a god, look at the evidence and we'll welcome you as an atheist.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Not the God of the gaps again ?

Our Heavenly Father is God. Period.

And that's your belief...one that has ZERO objective evidence as back up. That's the point, you are filling a gap in knowledge (no one knows the answer to your question) and fill it with magic.

What do you expect? You are using the same god of the gaps argument over and over and over again...so of course my reply will stay the same

Present real objective evidence and that will change. But we've been there, and it's pretty clear you have none of that evidence and are merely stating your religious belief

reply to post by GafferUK1981

It hasn't been covered though had it,

Now I'm lying ? Read the thread . It destroys squat !

reply to post by MrXYZ


You must have an infinite passion for repetition.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

we'll welcome you as an atheist.

I would personally fly to Cali and hand randy a bottle of champagne if he joined the rest of us

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

You must have an infinite passion for repetition.

Step away from your computer...walk into your bathroom...and look into your mirror

At least you're not using made up words like "target food"...that's tooth's domain

reply to post by MrXYZ

I would personally fly to Cali and hand randy a bottle of champagne if he joined the rest of u

You know I'd put up too !
I know you're a man of your word X. That's a pretty classic temptation.

Target food ! Monsanto ?

That reminds me I have to go to the store. Target to be exact. !

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by GafferUK1981

 

It hasn't been covered though had it,

Now I'm lying ? Read the thread . It destroys squat !

edit on 24-10-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Hmm.... Covered? Yes.....Answered? No.

My argument was:

The argument of the impossibility of Infinite regression is specious, because Aquinas arbitrarlily decided that the "buck stops here" once you arrive at God.

God didn't need a Universe, an Earth and Humans. However, Humans needed a God(s), to explain what they didn't understand. It is therefore more logical to say that Humans created God(s). It is also proven that they did, even if the biblical God was real, Humans clearly invented thousands of other Gods, before and after the Bible. To say that the biblical God is the only exception is random and a non sequitur argument.

I stated that I (like millions of others) happen to have 2.43% Neanderthal DNA in genetical make up. Neanderthals and Homo Floriensis clearly were "other" humans, having developed independently from homo sapiens. The proof that aNeanderthal was human is that they could mate with h. Sapiens and produce viable offspring (me :-) ).
How and why would there be more than one "type" of humans, if the human species was created by a God "in his likeness".

In all fairness Randy, but while you responded, you haven't really answered.

reply to post by nv4711


I'm pretty sure I did. But you're like a child with a toy you won't let go of.

I said without even looking back :

Of course numbers will go infinitely forwards or backwards. But infinite retro- generation ? That's ultimately impossible by any standard.

I swear that. " Where did it's Daddy come from ?" crap is never ending. I'm just going to ignore anyone that brings it up again. K?

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by nv4711

 

I'm pretty sure I did. But you're like a child with a toy you won't let go of.

I said without even looking back :

Of course numbers will go infinitely forwards or backwards. But infinite retro- generation ? That's ultimately impossible by any standard.

I swear that. " Where did it's Daddy come from ?" crap is never ending. I'm just going to ignore anyone that brings it up again. K?

My points were:

Stopping infinite regression by inserting "God" is arbitrary. It is just as valid (and perhaps as arbitrary) to stop infinite regression by saying that life did not need a creator. Inserting God at that point is a choice made by humans, not the only and logical consequence to explain existence.

It is a fact that humans have invented thousands of Gods to explain existence (and natural phenomena). I think you will agree that they were dead wrong and these Gods never existed. By what measure is the existence of Yahweh any more real than Odin, Zeus, Vishnu or that little earthen statue some tribe in the Amazon jungle or Papua New-Guinea may pray to? In other words, humans created God(s), not the other way around.

One human created in Genesis - yet more than one human species have existed. How can that be possible?


Yes, I like my toys - and I like to know how they work.

reply to post by nv4711

It is a fact that humans have invented thousands of Gods

Why is that a fact ? That they invented any of them. I disagree with that! I think humans of that time had damn good reason to believe in these Demi Gods. Their called Demons. Come on do we have to go thru the whole history of man before you concede that you can't come up with a better explanation for existence than the one the Bible records ?

You simply can't, so speak to that ?

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by nv4711

 

It is a fact that humans have invented thousands of Gods

Why is that a fact ? That they invented any of them. I disagree with that! I think humans of that time had damn good reason to believe in these Demi Gods. Their called Demons. Come on do we have to go thru the whole history of man before you concede that you can't come up with a better explanation for existence than the one the Bible records ?

You simply can't, so speak to that ?

Your response doesn't answer my question, or better, any of my questions.

Well, you don't like evolution - but I do have an explanation that, at a minimum, rivals the Bible. Since I'm not sure to what extent you're familiar with it, I'll squeeze it into a few paragraphs:

My better explanation of existence: The Edda (a true story!)

In the beginning was only fire and ice, Muspelheim and Niflheim. When the warm air of Muspelheim hit the cold ice of Niflheim, the jötunn Ymir and the icy cow Auðhumla were created. Ymir's foot bred a son and a man and a woman emerged from his armpits. .....Bla bla Bla.......fathered Bor, the father of the three gods Odin, Vili and Ve.

The Gods live atop of Yggdrasil, the holy ash tree were the Gods created seven more worlds using Ymir's flesh for dirt, his blood for the Oceans, rivers and lakes, his bones for stone, his brain as the clouds, his skull for the heaven. Sparks from Muspelheim flew up and became stars.

One day when the gods were walking they found two tree trunks. They transformed them into the shape of humans. Odin gave them life, Vili gave them mind and Ve gave them the ability to hear, see, and speak. The Gods named them Askur and Embla (the first humans) and built the kingdom of Midgard for them (the ninth world of Yggdrasil)

And so on and so on... even includes Hel, Goddess of the Underworld (where the name Hell comes from), and a final showdown between good and evil (Ragnarök), the destruction of the World and all that good stuff.

That's what Germanic people believed. Would you explain how their creation story is any less believable than the one in the Bible?

If you think this one is too fantastical, I can also offer: the Rig Veda, the Enuma Elis, Viracocha, Unkulunkulu, the Panku..... each one just as valid and believable as the biblical creation story.

Were you born in China, chances are you'd now believe in the Panku and the cosmic egg......

reply to post by nv4711

each one just as valid and believable as the biblical creation story.

Wow so knowledgeable. And yet so willing to go after the ignorant.
If that's how you see it. None of them offer a savior.
I figured you weren't even worth the first response.
You still haven't offered a better explanation.
So I guess you'll be like so many others who wait til their dead to find out the truth.
and the truth is of course that there will only be one truth. And it isn't what you think.

Originally posted by randyvs

Wow so knowledgeable. And yet so willing to go after the ignorant.
If that's how you see it. None of them offer a savior.

Randy, in posting your thread you gave out a challenge, which I responded to. You also made it clear it's about Genesis, I didn't see a requirement for a Savior. The challenge was:

"So that will be the premise here'in. Is this a conspiracy or do people of science or anyone else have any explanations for existence, that don't sound just as loony, as most of the trolls make the account given in Genesis sound ? To date, I haven't heard one. ............But if you have one ? I'd like to read it ."

Explanation for Existence? Loony?.... I think I delivered on all counts!

I figured you weren't even worth the first response.

Hmm.... So I'm unworthy now? My value as a human being depends on agreeing with you....or the literal believe in the Bible? While not unexpected, it's a little disappointing, I thought you were above that.

You still haven't offered a better explanation.

It's your thread and your challenge, so I guess it is your right to judge the "contest". Not that the "contest" wasn't rigged and the winner declared from the start, but ok.
And btw, you still haven't offered any answers.

So I guess you'll be like so many others who wait til their dead to find out the truth.
and the truth is of course that there will only be one truth. And it isn't what you think.

I suppose that's true, but that includes you too. And it might turn out to be not even close to what any of us think.

I notice we keep talking about infinite regression.

I will freely admit that I'm not 100% convinced about the Big Bang theory although the way the universe is expanding indicates it to be true, I still need a bit more evidence before it is considered fact like evolution.

I will say this again even if randy thinks he's answered, if god started everything off on the scientific road then why is god immune from scientific evidence. Are we really supposed to believe that magic started science? I don't buy it, if there is a god he also must have been created and so must his god.

I think it's pretty obvious that there is no god, the highly educated are becoming more and more atheist as they have rational minds. Of course the poor and those devoid of decent education are still religious, look at the Middle East and Americas Bible Belt. They believe in god as this life isn't working out too good for them so they pin their hopes on another life after death which will never come. The bottom line is humans are arrogant and terrified of dying so they convince themselves it is not the end, as a result they created a belief system and god to enforce their wishes but no matter how grand it is and how poetic the scripture it still doesn't make it true.

People can believe in whichever imaginary god they want as far as I'm concerned but when that belief has an impact on my life then I have a problem.

reply to post by nv4711


Have you any explanations for existence that don't sound just as looney. You haven't provided anything that doesn't sound just as looney to me or to yourself. Is this semantics or just me ?

No your not unworthy. Forgive me if my home life shows up in my posting at times . Apologies.

I suppose that's true, but that includes you too. And it might turn out to be not even close to what any of us think.

I'll go along with that. But they call it the, " Armor of God " for a reason.


Challenge yes. Not really a contest because I know no one can do it.
I think you should concede that much.

reply to post by GafferUK1981

I will say this again even if randy thinks he's answered, if god started everything off on the scientific road then why is god immune from scientific evidence. Are we really supposed to believe that magic started science? I don't buy it, if there is a god he also must have been created and so must his god.

But that's so simple it boggles my mind that you have to ask it. Is science able to come up with anything that proves man's spiritual nature at all ? No. But billions believe it and have their own subjective evidence.