Scottish independence: Cameron and Salmond strike referendum deal

I'm glad this has all been hammered out and I hope the Scots decide to stay, which if the polling is accurate is what they'll choose. We're better together, after all.

There does seem to be quite a bit of misinformation though, from both sides. As has been pointed out by my good friend Freeborn, Scotland asked to join the Union, so this clamour about wanting "freedom" etc is nonsense and actually somewhat offensive, given all that Scotland got out of the Union for the past 300 odd years.

Also, someone said they found the Union Flag offensive? Why is that? Whenever I see the Scottish flag, I don't get all uppity.

Not all the North Sea oil is in Scottish waters. Almost 50% is actually in English waters and a good chunk is off Shetland and Orkney, who wish to remain in the UK. Not a good thing to gamble your nations future on.

The EU is no guarantee either. The EU said a few years back Scotland would have to go through the same process as any other applicant, which can take years. What will you do about trade in the meantime? That has never been answered by Salmond, like a good deal many of the important questions for that matter.

And another thing, what's this rubbish about the Royal Family being German? It is really quite tiring reading such bollocks. The last King that even spoke German was George II who died in 1760. How can you say that people born 200 years later are German? Does that mean I am Irish as I have Irish ancestors from 200 years ago...

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Hey man , my post was crap , it wasnt aimed at you about the england germany thing ,just the previous guy who said that we would be leaving England for germany , I just happened to reply to you for my post about the distribution thing and that I thought your post was quite an insight into the trade economy and logistics!

I wasnt in disagreement with you !

I'm struggling to see the true purpose of Scotland leaving the UK. It's not like Scotland and the rest of the UK have significantly different cultures, beliefs, traditions or values that makes them incompatible. I haven't seen anything remotely aproaching a convincing argument that Scottish people will be financially better off. The costs involved in firstly splitting up and then maintaining seperate governement/military/political organisations alone should be ringing alarm bells, this is going to cost for people both sides of the border. Scotland as a lone group of people will have a much smaller influence in the world most importantly as a trading block. 60 million people can get much better deals when making trade deals with other countries than 5 million could for example and the UK as a whole is able to much better negotiate EU opt outs so politically we are better off as one. I see no practical benefits. This is all about practical realities many of which are based around scale and not ability so pride imo should not be a driving force when making decisions on such huge, sweeping changes that will drastically effect not only the current but all future generations.

reply to post by Jargonaut


Again i would like to go over my strong passion to see the option for reform rather than referendum, lets get out our political steel wire brush and get rid of the rust from the past century of awful politics and clean up our collective nations. Sure we can have our indepdence why not , but wouldnt we all be better of together and with a new system of governance that actually is of the people , by the people and for the people, borrowing from those american friends of ours but they have a good point !

Freeborn and stu have good points , it will all be for nothing if we dont fix our system of governance , without reform and the correct measures in place to ensure our nations remain strong against the EU monster , not just from economic failure but also from political pressure we should try to unite and sort this mess out ! not seperate and bicker !

Scotlands drug problems would be sorted with the correct reforms , passing the issue from criminal to social/medical , with the correct legislation in place we could have a modern political view on drugs and their benefits and pitfalls! there are many countries who are very liberal with their views on drugs and still manage to have a democracy.

reply to post by sapien82


Voting for independence in the hope it will bring reform? What has Salmon shown in the way of policies that will change the things you are speaking about? Without that it's just random hope and effectively independence and reform are 2 unrelated things.

reply to post by sapien82


Personally (and I know there is history that would probably put paid to the idea) but I think the best option for England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland would be to band together in a Union of the Isles, with a Federal type Government with home rule for ALL (not just Wales, Scotland and Ireland - England is totally disenfranchised in the current set up), all within a Direct Democratic system where the people actually have a voice and the politicians have to listen.

The last time we all banded together, we ruled the world. We all have far more in common with each other than anyone on the continent and as shown recently, the UK was still very willing to bung a few quid to the Irish when they were in trouble, as they are good friends and neighbours.

But, that's just my pipe dream. Just getting people interested in changing the status-quo now, everything else withstanding, is nigh on impossible. Most barely even understand how Parliament is supposed to work, hence the totally bastardisation of it by the "mainstream" parties in the last 100 years.

Originally posted by SaltireWarrior

A deal setting out terms for a Scottish independence referendum has been signed by Prime Minister David Cameron and First Minister Alex Salmond. The agreement, struck in Edinburgh, has paved the way for a vote in autumn 2014, with a single Yes/No question on Scotland leaving the UK. It will also allow 16 and 17-year-olds to take part in the ballot. The SNP secured a mandate to hold the referendum after its landslide Scottish election win last year. The UK government, which has responsibility over constitutional issues, will grant limited powers to the Scottish Parliament to hold a legal referendum, under a mechanism called Section 30.

Source

So basically, the referendum on Scottish independance has been officially recognised and agreed. The key points of the referendum are:

Held in autumn 2014.
16 & 17 year olds eligible to vote.
Single yes/no question.

I will be voting yes for independance, and I know this news wont be applicable to many of you but I hope from an outsiders perspective it is still interesting to observe.

edit on 15/10/12 by SaltireWarrior because: Source

As an American, sadly I cannot partake. But I do wish you and your country the freedom it truly (and finally) deserves. An independent Scotland sounds appealing to me. I may have to move there some day if it goes the right way

reply to post by Dishonored


As an American, reading what you have said, it would appear you don't really understand what is going on or the history..

What on earth do you mean by the "freedom it truly (and finally) deserves.. In your mind, how do you think Scotland became part of the Union? Do you think England conquered them?

reply to post by Dishonored


There appears to be some belief that Scotland and it's people are somehow not free or are somehow oppressed. As far as I'm aware the majority of them have wanted to be a part of the UK. Now that a party has been voted in by the people of Scotland who wishes to bring forth the idea of splitting off from the UK, they are FREE to do so and will be voting on it. Democracy, the will of the people, voting for their futures, a good definition of freedom if ever there was one. Scotland isn't not free, it's part of the UK by choice and may choose to remain so or not... by their own choice. We're all quite civilised over here don't you know

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Dishonored

 

As an American, reading what you have said, it would appear you don't really understand what is going on or the history..

What on earth do you mean by the "freedom it truly (and finally) deserves.. In your mind, how do you think Scotland became part of the Union? Do you think England conquered them?

No, but I do know that war has been waged before between England and Scotland.

Wars of Scottish Independence

The First War (1296–1328) began with the English invasion of Scotland in 1296
The Second War (1332–1357) began with the English-supported invasion of Edward Baliol and the "Disinherited" in 1332, and ended in 1357 with the signing of the Treaty of Berwick.

Anglo-Scottish Wars

During the mid fifteenth century there were many conflicts on the border of England and Scotland, most notably the Battle of Sark.
England under Henry VIII declared war on France in 1512 (as part of the larger conflict known as the War of the League of Cambrai). James IV of Scotland invaded England in fulfilment of his alliance with France (even though married to Henry's sister Margaret).
War broke out in 1541. Once again there were preliminary border skirmishes, but when James sent a large army into England, its leadership was weak and divided and it suffered a humbling defeat at the Battle of Solway Moss.

The point is, the nations weren't always the best of friends. That's not to say that they shouldn't continue to have good relations, but, in my opinion, Scotland has earned it's right to be independent of the UK if it's people so choose. I just don't understand why people are so against a simple vote?

reply to post by stumason


Preaching to the converted here mate - abolition of the outdated, dogmatic and failing party political system, devolution of power to the individual countries and regions, Direct Democracy introduced giving people a real say in government and all within some sort of Federal Union of the British Isles framework.

As a slight aside, is it any wonder that people from outside the UK believe the myth that Scotland is somehow a suppressed and conquered nation when that is the perception many Scots, and to be fair many non-Scottish Brits as well, give and believe?
It's as if some Scots need to believe the lie that they are a conquered and down trodden nation to justify their intense hatred and dislike of the English when the truth is that they are no more down trodden than the rest of us.

I wonder how an independant Scotland will manage when it free's itself from the enforced shackles of the convenient scapegoat south of their border?
Will they continue to blame England for all their woes, like some nations still do despite decades of independance etc, forever and a day or will they man up and accept responsibility for their own doings?

Originally posted by Jargonaut
reply to post by Dishonored

 

There appears to be some belief that Scotland and it's people are somehow not free or are somehow oppressed. As far as I'm aware the majority of them have wanted to be a part of the UK. Now that a party has been voted in by the people of Scotland who wishes to bring forth the idea of splitting off from the UK, they are FREE to do so and will be voting on it. Democracy, the will of the people, voting for their futures, a good definition of freedom if ever there was one. Scotland isn't not free, it's part of the UK by choice and may choose to remain so or not... by their own choice. We're all quite civilised over here don't you know

If my words came out that way, it was not my intent. No I do not believe that Scots are over there being whipped by the evil English into slave labor. Simply that, as you said, the vote should be given to the people. And if the Scots choose to remain, then so be it. As long as the option is there.

reply to post by Dishonored


And those wars with Scotland weren't always the Evil English attacking either. More often than not, such as in the 15th Century, it was because Scotland allied with France..War was a strategic necessity..

Anyhoo, all these were some 200 years prior to the Scottish requesting political Union with England (we already had a Union of the Crowns after the Scottish King inherited the English throne some 100 years prior)..

It would be nice, just for once, people would stop the Braveheart "FREEEEEDOM!!!" nonsense and focus on the facts. I know they are more boring than a romanticised tale of oppression and patriotism, but facts is facts.

Originally posted by Six6Six
I have no liking for the country of Scotland what-so-ever. They are a drain on the economy, they FAIL at everything they put their hands too and they generally suck as a country.

And yet they were responsible for some pretty remarkable inventions that helped change the world,

Scottish inventions and discoveries

If anything we need to put a wall around out border and block out these perpetual drug taking people from entering England again.

Already tried that, didn't work

They have zero chance of surviving and with no real economy or armed forces or even a basic grasp of the English language they will be placed at the bottom of all irrelevant things the UK and mainly England has had the displeasure of being associated with.

I think our armed forces are coming worse off actually:

Army cuts: Scottish infantry spared as English regiments axed

Besides, even if the Scots gain independence, and someone invades, do you really think England, or even Europe would stand by and do nothing?

I can not explain in words clear enough how bad Scotland sucks at being a country. If you walk around the center of Glasgow you really get to understand the depths people can sink to in life.

And English council estates are so much better because....?
Have you walked around Brixton lately?
Harlesdon?
Stonebridge?
Peckham?
Clapham?

Scotland is no worse than many places in England.

Good riddance to Scotland.

Maybe we should boot London out, whenever people think of England they think of London and surrounding areas, the North is just a place filled with dragons to most (Cumbria has it the worst, a lot of people in England think England ends at Lancashire, lol).

I wrote this 6 hours ago, I got to the good riddance Scotland bit and had a power cut, thank you Mozilla Firefox for recovering it!

reply to post by woogleuk

I wrote this 6 hours ago, I got to the good riddance Scotland bit and had a power cut, thank you Mozilla Firefox for recovering it!

Did you forget to fill the boiler up - computers are steam driven in Cumbria aren't they - or do they utilise methane gas from all them sheep?

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Dishonored

 

And those wars with Scotland weren't always the Evil English attacking either. More often than not, such as in the 15th Century, it was because Scotland allied with France..War was a strategic necessity..

Anyhoo, all these were some 200 years prior to the Scottish requesting political Union with England (we already had a Union of the Crowns after the Scottish King inherited the English throne some 100 years prior)..

It would be nice, just for once, people would stop the Braveheart "FREEEEEDOM!!!" nonsense and focus on the facts. I know they are more boring than a romanticised tale of oppression and patriotism, but facts is facts.

It was a poor choice of words. Independents would have been a better statement. All I'm saying is that Scotland, like England, has a rich history and you can see why some Scots would long to restore that history even though they aren't necessarily being oppressed or conquered. And that a vote, whichever way it goes, would go a long way.

I understand this is not Braveheart, but let's look at the other side of the coin. If it were Scotland that was perceived to be the head of this union, how would the English feel about it? Sure you're not being oppressed. You weren't conquered. But you've lost your queen. And when people mention the UK, all they think of is Scotland. I'd want my country back too.

wow, I wonder what other parts of the UK they are considering letting go?

There are many that would.....

in fact most western countries would have a candidate for independence. Some have more than one territory that would want independence.....

Give it to them.....what do you want with the non willing?

Can I just remind some people, that a vote for Independence is not a vote for Salmond or the SNP.

The year following the referendum, it would be time for the Scottish election where the SNP could once again get a majority, or Labour could get a majority or the conserva... Nah who we kidding, or there could be a coalition again.

Don't vote NO just because you don't like the SNP, as there is every chance they wouldn't be in power in an independent Scotland.

Scotland for independence 2014 !!!

Lets show the world we can work our country into greatness ..... with or without oil.

I will be trying to convince as many people as i can to vote for independence as the way i see it, it's our only chance to get out of europe after westminster pimped us out using the lisbon treaty... which is treason by the way according to the bill of rights. So i apologise to our neighbours in this promising time, but i have lost faith in our government as should most others and this could be a glimmer of hope for us or at least a hurdle for them.

F*** the oil im so sick of hearing about it like its the pivotal point of the debate

Have a watch at this eye opening interview and tell me again why scotland should stay.

The EU agenda

This is and always has been a no brainer for me, if the people of Scotland want independence then they should have it, and deal with consequences good, bad, or otherwise. There are still I would say a great many questions that need to be asked, and more importantly answered.

Will Scottish people currently serving in the UK armed forces be allowed to continue to do so.

Non UK citizens cannot hold high level security clearance, does that mean that Scots currently holding clearance will be downgraded, or dismissed.

Will there be controlled border crossings.

Will flights, and sailings from Scotland no longer count as domestic, meaning that passengers would have to clear international customs, and immigration before entry.

Will Scottish people working in the UK pay their taxes to London, or Edinburgh.

Will MPs elected to Westminster's Scottish seats be recalled, or stood down.

If Scotland gains independence will UK tax payers pay more, less, or the same amount of tax.

These are some that have just occurred to me, I am certain there must be many more.