Hearing God

reply to post by kat2684

Very good point, why is it some people claim anything supernatural is evil?.....

Many want to stay in their own safety zone, and only go by the bible, and not try to have a direct relationship with Father for fear of being mislead by something not of above. But, if they followed that word, then they should know they will be protected.

reply to post by jiggerj


And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

I don't know, is the "angel of the Lord" all knowing? What's an angel of the Lord? Is that the same as God? It's not God speaking here.

And I don't see the OT as 100% historical book anyway. I think it could be maybe, but I don't know. Much of it is allegory and metaphor.

For example did Abraham ever really take his son to be sacrificed on an alter? Maybe, but I have no idea. But the way I read the story it has more meaning than that.

I know it sounds crazy, but many of the stories in the OT are actually just stories about Jesus. They're not supposed to be history lessons.

See, the tree of life in the garden. Well it's Jesus. Think about it. What else could it be? What gives eternal life? After you think about it for a while nothing else really makes sense.

God wants to know if man will sacrifice his son for God? Why? Wouldn't he already know? But see to me, it's all allegory to show a point. A figure of speech. What actually happens in the end is that God sacrifices his son for man instead. The other way around. It's a literary device.

See, God will save Abraham here. But how will God save Abraham? The same way we would later save all men.

Genesis 22:8 "Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb"

See, it's almost like code. God will provide HIMSELF a lamb. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God and was God.

See, this story is actually a prophecy. God will literally present HIMSELF as a lamb to save man. It's foreshadowing. Not a historical story.

Now I don't have time to go into every story in the Bible. But see my point is I don't even think it's supposed to be taken as 100% historical or literal. It never has been in the past for thousands of years after all. What most people don't realize is that the modern day inerrant, historical, literal, creationist, fundamentalism reading of the Bible is a modern thing!

For most of the Bible's history people didn't read it that way. The authors certainty didn't read it that way. The stories in the OT were for teaching purposes. To teach about God. Sometimes they contained history. But that wasn't their main goal.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

We don't even know if God created the tree for a reason.

Yes, for a reason. To prove to the others above, that the current design and setup, man will indeed fall into temptation. He had to show/teach them by allowing it to happen, so that they may learn.

I don't think so. That's never really made sense to me either. Why would God want to temp us? I think there's more to the story.

Like I said I don't think just the NT is about Jesus. I think the OT is also. Let's consider the author of Genesis. Well nobody really knows but the attributed author is Moses. Genesis may be the first book in the Bible, but many actually consider Job to be the first written.

So, why would God write the first book LATER and have Moses do it? Why didn't he have Job do it? Well it's about what Moses represents.

See, to me, to figure out what the Tree of Knowledge was you have to figure out what the Tree of Life was. And to me it always seemed obvious. The Tree of Life is a metaphor. It's Jesus. He's the tree that provides eternal life.

If Jesus is the Tree of Life then the Tree of Knowledge is his alternative. The alternative to the NT is the OT.

See, the Tree of Knowledge is the 10 Commandments. It's the knowledge of good and evil. It's the law of Moses! But the law only brings death! If you've broken one part of the law you've broken the whole of the law. Only Jesus lived up to the law perfectly. To everyone else it's a death sentence.

However, it was something God HAD to create. It's his holy standard that he judges by. But it wasn't meant for us. That's not what we're supposed to choose. Think about the whole message of the NT. Think about the teachings of Paul. That the law, the OT was good and holy and served its purpose. But it does not SAVE us. Only by faith in Jesus are we saved.

Only the tree of life saves. Knowledge of good and evil does not. The law brings death. We picked the wrong tree. We should have rooted ourselves in the Tree of Life first, in Jesus.

See, it's an allegory. It's one single message throughout the whole book. The law equals death. Jesus equals eternal life. It's the same story over and over.

But yet humans cannot let the law go. Look up Legalism

You ever talked to a legalist? No matter how many times you try to explain to them why Christians can have bacon they cannot let it go. They cannot let the adulterer go. They must stone her to death over and over and over! Because the law says so! They must circumcise you! The law says so! They do not understand how Jesus saves us from the law.

They're the modern day Pharisees. "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?". They're the serpent. They're the accusers.

Originally posted by obnoxiouschick

Originally posted by jiggerj
But when people claim to hear god, they are unsure of his message, and some aren't even sure if it's their own minds making this stuff up. Either this god is vague or he isn't. No two ways about it.

In this day and age he has removed himself further. His messages used to be clear direct communication, he would walk with prophets, then sent angels. Over time he has slowly pulled away. Do you blame him, look at our history.

LOL Who told you that? First his messages were clear, then he slowly pulled away? So, what does he do now? Slur his speech, becoming more and more vague as time goes on?

Originally posted by jiggerj
Plus, how do you get past the issue of this god LETTING the serpent into the Garden to tempt Adam and Eve? Again, no two ways about it. Either this god is all-powerful and all-knowing, meaning that he knew the serpent was sneaking into the garden and didn't stop him, or this god didn't know and couldn't stop the serpent, which means this god is not a god.

If you choose to view it like that then that is your choice.
I happen to see it differently and that is my choice.

There's no other way to look at it. You can't 'happen to see it differently'. What you're actually saying is you refuse to acknowledge the only two choices you have. But that's okay. I'm just chatting here.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by jiggerj

 

This is your defense? Everyone on the planet defines what a god is or isn't. But, if you don't like one description you question how someone would dare define him.

I say this to everyone. You cannot know, unless you are standing next to him and ask him why he does every action that he does, to understand him.

Then we might as well throw out the bible, right? If we can't possibly know any of his thoughts, his messages, or his agenda, why read it? Why listen to a preacher as he explains what this god wants from us when he can't possibly know this god's thoughts?

Ahhh, but you know what this god wants from you, right? See the conflicting ideas here?

Originally posted by jhill76

Yet, when this god tested Abraham and stopped him from sacrificing his son, this god said, "Now I know that you fear me." Ya can't be ALL-KNOWING and not know something.

Just because he stated this, does not mean he didn't know. When Father speaks it is more for said person, not for himself.

Could he not have said this, so that Abraham realized unto himself that now he knows he fears Father?

You have a phrase, and you take it as he didn't know what was going to take place. He never said, I didn't know this, you surprised me Abraham.


Really? You want to take a very clear statement "Now I know that you fear me," and claim this god didn't mean it that way? Really?

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by jiggerj

 

And I don't see the OT as 100% historical book anyway. I think it could be maybe, but I don't know. Much of it is allegory and metaphor.

For example did Abraham ever really take his son to be sacrificed on an alter? Maybe, but I have no idea. But the way I read the story it has more meaning than that.

I know it sounds crazy, but many of the stories in the OT are actually just stories about Jesus. They're not supposed to be history lessons.

See, the tree of life in the garden. Well it's Jesus. Think about it. What else could it be? What gives eternal life? After you think about it for a while nothing else really makes sense.

God wants to know if man will sacrifice his son for God? Why? Wouldn't he already know? But see to me, it's all allegory to show a point. A figure of speech. What actually happens in the end is that God sacrifices his son for man instead. The other way around. It's a literary device.

See, God will save Abraham here. But how will God save Abraham? The same way we would later save all men.

Genesis 22:8 "Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb"

See, it's almost like code. God will provide HIMSELF a lamb. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God and was God.

See, this story is actually a prophecy. God will literally present HIMSELF as a lamb to save man. It's foreshadowing. Not a historical story.

Now I don't have time to go into every story in the Bible. But see my point is I don't even think it's supposed to be taken as 100% historical or literal. It never has been in the past for thousands of years after all. What most people don't realize is that the modern day inerrant, historical, literal, creationist, fundamentalism reading of the Bible is a modern thing!

For most of the Bible's history people didn't read it that way. The authors certainty didn't read it that way. The stories in the OT were for teaching purposes. To teach about God. Sometimes they contained history. But that wasn't their main goal.

So, you flip-flop on the bible? This part is real - but, that part is not real. This part is not true - but, that part is true.

If you claim that the OT is just stories for teaching purposes, do you realize you just killed Jesus? No Adam and Eve means that the series of begats that started with Adam and Eve and ends with Jesus as a descendant didn't take place. Adam and Eve didn't begat Cain and Able, and their line of descendants didn't begat Noah or Abraham, or Jesus.

reply to post by jiggerj


Well thanks for hijacking this thread and turning it into a discussion about proving god exists. I've seen this happen too many times on ATS.
I'm sure there were others that read this and wanted to post but didn't want to get into the disagreement about God.

Maybe this should get back on topic.

Originally posted by tinfoilman

We don't even know if God created the tree for a reason.

Yes, for a reason. To prove to the others above, that the current design and setup, man will indeed fall into temptation. He had to show/teach them by allowing it to happen, so that they may learn.
-----------

I don't think so. That's never really made sense to me either. Why would God want to temp us? I think there's more to the story.

Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. Deuteronomy 5:1

Assemble the people--men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns--so they can listen and learn to fear the LORD your God and follow carefully all the words of this law. Deuteronomy 31:12

"This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go and tell the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem, 'Will you not learn a lesson and obey my words?' declares the LORD. Jeremiah 35:13

(Jesus said) "If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love". John 15:10

(Jesus said) "He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." John 14:24

(Jesus said) "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.John 14:28-31

Genesis started with Adam's disobedience and Jesus shows us how to overcome through obedience.

It is why the law states:

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Obedience is what Our Father commands. Parents understand that disobedience sometimes requires chastisement and discipline in order to produce obedience. Sometimes that chastisement and discipline comes in the form of grounding, or getting hurt. In order for disobedience to occur, there must be a command "Do Not Steal" and the option/choice to either steal (disobey) or not steal (obey) must be available. Otherwise there can be no disobedience. Similarly, Adam and Eve had a command "Do Not Eat of the Tree of Good and Evil" and the tree sitting right there for them to either eat of it (disobey) or not to eat of it (obey). Whilst Eve was deceived into breaking the command, Adam chose to disobey. Whatever this parable represents, and there are a lot of interpretations, the overwhelming message that God imparts to us throughout scripture is that we must obey Him for eternal life - that His Kingdom beyond is one of peace and love and life with no disobedience. As such, we are here in this body of flesh to learn to obey and to put our faith in Him as the world around us tests us, producing the chastisement and discipline necessary to keep us on the narrow road in obedience and faith. It's almost like a sieve weeding out all those who won't run the race. Each sieve has smaller and smaller holes which require continual internal transformation into a further and further refined and righteous character. These sieves aren't there to make us fail, but rather to teach and strengthen us. His Spirit teaches us as we move through the process.

Our western world today is being taught to disobey as it ingests the beast's doctrines. Sit down and watch a kid's tv show and you will see disobedience drummed into our little kid's hearts and minds. Anti-bullying indoctrination is teaching kids that nobody has the right (by obvious extension God) to tell them what they can and can't think and do, that everyone can be "right". Churches teach lawlessness at every opportunity producing Christians who act no differently than pagans who sacrifice their children at the alter of modern medicine in hopes of a "better harvest" or who consult psychics and mediums.

Jesus said "Follow Me" and "I'm the Way"..

reply to post by tinfoilman

I don't think so. That's never really made sense to me either. Why would God want to temp us? I think there's more to the story.

How does him placing something somewhere equate to Father tempting man? Tempting is saying, go ahead, eat it, it will be good for you. Father actually said do not eat of it.

reply to post by jiggerj

Then we might as well throw out the bible, right? If we can't possibly know any of his thoughts, his messages, or his agenda, why read it? Why listen to a preacher as he explains what this god wants from us when he can't possibly know this god's thoughts?

This is why you are to go to the source and have a direct relationship with him, and not an indirect one through a pastor.

So, when the serpent entered the Garden of Eden, GOD KNEW IT. And because the serpent made it into the Garden of Eden, the ALL-POWERFUL god did nothing to STOP the Great Deceiver from entering. And before Adam and Eve sinned, this god already KNEW what they would do. Yet, this god did not intervene, did not protect his naive children from being tempted. So, what do we call a father that knows his kids are in trouble, but does nothing to help them?

reply to post by jiggerj


We are always learning .... have you noticed that? We ALL have that in common. We learn... thats what we are here for.

Speaking of learning.

I have taken great pride in raising my children. I love them with all of my heart. When my oldest was a toddler, crawling around "getting into things", he was innocent and me being his mother had to teach him about "this world". He always loved opening and closing doors. What he didn't understand until he LEARNED was if he does not move his hand.... it gets smashed and it HURTS so bad.

Now, knowing my son is about to smash his hand, do I let him play with the door so he can learn the hard way?Let him do it so he will he will feel the pain, because if not, he will continue to do it, right?

Some of us are fast learners and some slow.

God is the same as he was and will always be. He is a mover... a creator and what we do with creation, is on us and if he has to intervene (to teach us the hard way) because we are not going with the order of creation then we get hurt and mad. We stay that way until we learn and become aware of how to operate in this life.

As far as God not helping us, in the over all picture I believe he gave us back our life. He did save us, otherwise we would not experience and just be void.

reply to post by MamaJ


Um, you answered the question without answering it.

He knew they would take the fruit, beause he's omniscient. All possibilities and all actualities are known, from the beginning of time until the end. That's what omniscient means. So he knew they would defy his orders, he knew the serpent would tempt them, he KNEW the tree would be too much of a temptation for them - he knew the result of every single variable in that garden.

I did this with a friend the other night. There was a wrapper on the ground, and I told him, "I'm going to kick that wrapper. Stop me if you want to, I will not resist." And I kicked the wrapper. He did not stop me. That was the same as him saying, "I don't care if you kick that wrapper." I recreated omniscience and omnipotence as best as I could in that scenario, and I made my point.

So in other words, everything that happened in that garden happened according to his will. If he had not wanted it to happen, he would have either created Adam and Eve accordingly, neglected to add the tree, or made damn sure that serpent wasn't in the garden. What happened, could not have happened any other way. And yet, oddly enough, all the required variables were in place.

He even KNEW they would be tempted. He told them NOT to take that fruit. He knew they would be tempted somehow. And yet, he let all the pieces fall into place in such a way that the odds were increasingly stacked against their chances of obeying him.

He was omniscient and omnipotent and omnipresent. There is no explanation other than, "He wanted it to happen." There is no excuse. And from your lack of addressing it directly, I'm going to assume that you don't have a good answer for it either.

He chose to let it happen. And in the court of law, that's called an "accomplice". "God" is just as guilty as anyone in the garden that day, because he had the power to stop it at any time, the power to prevent that situation from developing before the garden even existed, and he chose not to. That was his choice.

He has dealt with the consequences ever since. That's probably why he's so ticked.

reply to post by jhill76

How does him placing something somewhere equate to Father tempting man? Tempting is saying, go ahead, eat it, it will be good for you. Father actually said do not eat of it.

Here we go again, people refusing to think for themselves.

Ever heard of reverse psychology? MamaJ has said in another thread that, "A table of adults telling a child not to do something is a good way to make sure they do it."

A child is prone to doing exactly what they're told not to. How do you know "God" didn't realize this and tell them not to take the fruit...intending that they should do it, planting the seed for a trillion lifetimes of learning experiences, right up unto today?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


No reply is needed. I know exactly what I am doing, with my questions.

reply to post by jhill76


I chose to reply, as it seemed you had not considered my particular take on it. Is your "God" above psychological manipulation?

reply to post by WhoKnows100


See all you did was quote from the ot mostly. You're a Jewish Legalist and just like the Pharisees you totally misunderstand the teachings of Jesus

The law serves a purpose. I'm not saying you have to disobey it. But following it will not save you. Trying to follow the law without faith will get you killed. Its a death sentence.

While the knowledge of good and evil does serve a purpose only the Tree of Life can provide eternal life. That's what the story has been trying to tell us from the start. We no longer have to stone the adulterer if her sins have been forgiven by Jesus right?

reply to post by jiggerj


I haven't flip flopped on anything. The whole basis of the argument was on the hypothetical if it was true that logic would say this or that. I never claimed to you it was true. I just said if it was. But that's something you have to decide for yourself.

Also the gospels are written in a different style than the OT stories. They're written by the apostles in more of a news paper style. Reporting the events that happened. All the apostles and Paul were martyred for their belief that Jesus was real.

That's what the apostles claimed. That Jesus was the actual physical manifestation of the OT. That is why they say Jesus is the word made flesh. If it's true or not you'll have to decide for yourself.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

I don't think so. That's never really made sense to me either. Why would God want to temp us? I think there's more to the story.

How does him placing something somewhere equate to Father tempting man? Tempting is saying, go ahead, eat it, it will be good for you. Father actually said do not eat of it.

You could just rephrase it and say, why would God want us to be around something that we could be tempted by? But like I said, I don't think that's the whole story and I don't think that's the most important part of the story.

reply to post by tinfoilman

You could just rephrase it and say, why would God want us to be around something that we could be tempted by?

Yes, but then he would have to separate the believers against the unbelievers, if this was the case. Or, the good from the evil. It goes deeper than that, but that's for another thread.