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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
David Joseph Bohm FRS[1] (20 December 1917 – 27 October 1992) was an American quantum physicist who contributed to theoretical physics, philosophy of mind, and neuropsychology. Due to suspicions of Communism during the McCarthy era, he left the US, eventually becoming a British citizen. Bohm is widely considered to be one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century.[2]
Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I made a sketch:
Originally posted by primalfractal
reply to post by Arbitrageur
Could you please describe the experiment in laymans terms for everyone including the uses of the equipment you described?
The idea would be to move aim of the photon source from point A to point C while the wave packet is still in the process of exiting the device, to determine statistically over a large number of photons how much of the wave packet can exit the source while movement of the source can still affect the impact point B of the photon on the detector.
By detecting the precise time of impact of the photon, we can work backward from there to determine the travel time of the photon at the speed of light in the experimental medium to determine the time it exited the source with the goal of capturing photon impacts at the detector where the wave packet was partly out of the moving photon source as shown.
This was what I had in mind, is this also what you were thinking?
Originally posted by Mary Rose
I'm reading Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Resonance: The Nature of Formative Causation, and at the end of the book in Appendix B there is a transcript of a dialogue with quantum physicist David Bohm (who died in 1992). The dialogue was first published in ReVision Journal and the editorial notes are by the journal's editor.
This passage made me think of this thread. Is it related?
(Note: My understanding is that "chreodes" are paths.)
Sheldrake, Rupert (2009-09-09). Morphic Resonance: The Nature of Formative Causation (pp. 255-257). Inner Traditions Bear & Company. Kindle Edition.
Bohm: . . . One of the early interpretations of the quantum theory I developed was in terms of a particle moving in a field.
Sheldrake: The quantum potential.
Bohm: Yes. Now the quantum potential had many of the properties you ascribe to morphogenetic fields and chreodes; that is, it guided the particle in some way, and there are often deep valleys and plateaus, and particles may start to accumulate in plateaus and produce interference fringes. Now the interesting thing is that the quantum potential energy had the same effect regardless of its intensity, so that even far away it may produce a tremendous effect; this effect does not follow an inverse square law. Only the form of the potential has an effect, and not its amplitude or its magnitude. So we compared this to a ship being guided by radar; the radar is carrying form or information from all around. It doesn’t, within its limits, depend on how strong the radio wave is. So we could say that in that sense the quantum potential is acting as a formative field on the movement of the electrons. The formative field could not be put in three-dimensional [or local] space, it would have to be in a three-n dimensional space, so that there would be non-local connections, or subtle connections of distant particles (which we see in the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen experiment). So there would be a wholeness about the system such that the formative field could not be attributed to that particle alone; it can be attributed only to the whole, and something happening to faraway particles can affect the formative field of other particles. There could thus be a [non-local] transformation of the formative field of a certain group to another group. So I think that if you attempt to understand what quantum mechanics means by such a model, you get quite a strong analogy to a formative field.
Sheldrake: Yes, it may even be a homology; it may be a different way of talking about the same thing.
Bohm: The major difference is that quantum mechanics doesn’t treat time, and therefore it hasn’t any way to account for the cumulative effect of past forms. To do so would require an extension of the way physics treats time, you see.
Sheldrake: But don’t you get time in physics when you have a collapse of the wave function?
Bohm: Yes, but that’s outside the framework of quantum physics today. That collapse is not treated by any law at all, which means that the past is, as it were, wiped out altogether. [Editor’s note: This is the point where, as earlier mentioned, Bohm discusses some of the inadequacies of present-day quantum mechanics—in particular, its incapacity to explain process, or the influence of the past on the present. He then suggests his re-formulations—injection, projection, the implicate order, etc.—that might remedy these inadequacies. And these re-formulations, apparently, are rather similar to Sheldrake’s theories.] You see, the present quantum mechanics does not have any concept of movement or process or continuity in time; it really deals with one moment only, one observation, and the probability that one observation will be followed by another one. But there is obviously process in the physical world. Now I want to say that that process can be understood from the implicate order as this activity of re-projection and re-injection. So, the theory of the implicate order, carried this far, goes quite beyond present quantum mechanics. It actually deals with process, which quantum mechanics does not, except by reference to an observing apparatus that in turn has to be referred to something else. . . .
"So, the theory of the implicate order, carried this far, goes quite beyond present quantum mechanics. It actually deals with process, which quantum mechanics does not, except by reference to an observing apparatus that in turn has to be referred to something else. . . ."
The formative field could not be put in three-dimensional [or local] space, it would have to be in a three-n dimensional space, so that there would be non-local connections, or subtle connections of distant particles (which we see in the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen experiment).
So there would be a wholeness about the system such that the formative field could not be attributed to that particle alone; it can be attributed only to the whole,
Bohm: The major difference is that quantum mechanics doesn’t treat time, and therefore it hasn’t any way to account for the cumulative effect of past forms. To do so would require an extension of the way physics treats time, you see
Originally posted by tgidkp
i think i found the answer to the proposed experiment suggested by arbitrageur. by using a smaller probe (shorter time interval) for measurement, you will introduce virtual particle interactions.
i think this could be legitimately described as "curving" the vector potential. but the REAL particles will only be manifest at their known energy quanta.
Running Coupling Constant
reply to post by Arbitrageur
by "either of its basis states", i am referring to the collapse of the wavefunction to ket1 or ket0. in the case of a laser, ket0 is filtered out which leads to the coherent phase. so, at the NEW trajectory, it will collapse either of its basis. no matter how quickly you move the laser, you will never change the angle (change the frequency) of the photon.
but, as i mentioned above, "either" can turn into a menagerie of intermediate states depending on the length of the probe.edit on 27-9-2012 by tgidkp because: (no reason given)
One thing you might want to consider is posting the idea for the experiment on physicsforums.com. There are numerous PhD physicists on that site and some of them have specialized knowledge the others don't have. Maybe one of those folks on physicsforums has heard of a related experiment. But if nobody else has done this experiment, you might be onto something interesting, though I'm not sure it would result in a new law of physics. I'd find the experiment interesting even if it didn't result in any new laws.
Originally posted by Arbitrageur
edit on 12-10-2012 by primalfractal because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by primalfractal
reply to post by Arbitrageur
Experiment picture comp.
a.
b.
Some more.
c.
d.
e.
Originally posted by primalfractal
a fractional spin, maybe? it occurs to me now that the type of behavior the op is looking for is the fractional quantum hall effect in anyons. but a photon is not an anyon.
Quantum Hall effect
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The quantum Hall effect (or integer quantum Hall effect) is a quantum-mechanical version of the Hall effect, observed in two-dimensional electron systems subjected to low temperatures and strong magnetic fields, in which the Hall conductivity σ takes on the quantized values
Link
Note low temp and fields, if this theory proves right it might be a new, slightly different effect or another occurunce of above in different circumstances.
Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by primalfractal
One thing you might want to consider is posting the idea for the experiment on physicsforums.com. There are numerous PhD physicists on that site and some of them have specialized knowledge the others don't have. Maybe one of those folks on physicsforums has heard of a related experiment. But if nobody else has done this experiment, you might be onto something interesting, though I'm not sure it would result in a new law of physics. I'd find the experiment interesting even if it didn't result in any new laws.
Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by primalfractal
Physicsforums members get tired of hearing too many crazy ideas all the time so they do tend to tune those out and close out those threads quickly (though there's nothing crazy about asking what happens to a wave packet half out of a device when the device emitting it is moved). If you are just describing an experiment and asking if it's been done before, that's just a matter of fact...it either has or it hasn't, so no open-mindedness is really required to answer such a question. I wouldn't claim it will lead to a new law of physics over there though, so I'd leave that part out!
And every once in a while I'm surprised by how open-minded some of those guys are. I think they are well aware of the existing holes in theories, and if someone has better data or a model that fits existing data better, they really do seem interested in that.
Regarding the time cloak, if those guys can find a market of people that need to hide something for 110 nanoseconds, they'll be rich! But since that seems unlikely, it's just a cool experiment, but that has intrinsic value.
Originally posted by ubeenhad
His thread will get closed in minutes.
They are nazi's about this kind of stuff. been a member there for years
Originally posted by primalfractal
Well, it's posted on physicsforums.com, wonder how we will go?"What happens to a photon wave packet when half out of a moving device?"
Hmm so far the only response was the same as mine. Could I be right? Of course not, it must have been me who posted that. So lets wait for another.
(see im picking up on how you guys do things here.)
Edit: To claify, i was being sarcastic. I have refrained from posting on the PF forum, i didn't want to be accused of influencing responses. (gotta feed the baby birds)edit on 1-10-2012 by ubeenhad because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by primalfractal
reply to post by Mary Rose
It is also what I am picturing, curving wave paths with a Kelvin-Helmholtz instability.
This site has a lot of good pictures and info regarding waves and their paths.
Star Theory
Originally posted by primalfractal
Liked this one even more though
"Somewhere there was once a Flower, a Stone, a Crystal, a Queen, a King,
a Lover and his Beloved, and this was long ago, on an Island somewhere
in the Ocean 5000 years ago. Such is Love, the Mystic Flower of the Soul.
This is the Center, the Self." --C.G. Jung
HERE BE DRAGONS
edit on 5-10-2012 by primalfractal because: Spell
Originally posted by primalfractal
I think this one from the above link is a good reflection from 3Dimension-n.
Originally posted by ubeenhad
ATS, were the ones who loose the debate get to keep the thread AND share crazy pictures with each other.....
Originally posted by primalfractal
Thought it was an appropriate time to put another "crazy" picture in.
Originally posted by Mary Rose
Originally posted by primalfractal
This site has a lot of good pictures and info regarding waves and their paths.
I think that in physics when you focus on the wave rather than the particle things make sense and hold together beautifully.
Originally posted by primalfractal
I think that in physics when you focus on the wave rather than the particle things make sense and hold together beautifully.
That is certainly what modern physics is missing, sense and beauty.