Some calculations and questions concerning "The End"

reply to post by SrWingCommander


Maybe he thinks Ezekiel would be a more credible prophet if he had called them "tanks" and "planes" when such words didn't exist. He doesn't seem to understand that writers like Ezekiel, Daniel and John were describing what they saw in the terms they understood at the time.

Funny how he only quotes a minor detail of Ezekiel 38 and leaves out all that relevant stuff about the hostile nations surrounding Israel. This is happening today. This is true in our time. Russia is forming a military coalition with the countries in the Middle East who want Israel out. Scripture makes it clear that no nation will come to Israel's aid in this battle - that includes the United States. This is EXACTLY what Ezekiel saw in his vision of the end times - Russia and Iran together as partners in military matters which will ultimately lead to the attempted invasion of Israel. This is the battle of Gog and Magog.

reply to post by SrWingCommander

I take that figuatively.....

I take the entire war figuratively.
How do you know where exactly the figurative stops and the literal begins?
I could tell you . . it doesn't.

we don't use swords or horseman anymore....

Then it should be obvious that this war is also "not any more".

although the rifle and armored units take the place of those in modern warfare.

So why did Ezekiel not describe anything that comes close to what we have today?
Even with the limited things he had to compare it to, if he actually saw something in a vision, he could have come a lot closer to giving an accurate description than what he did.
The solution which should be obvious is that the "prophecy" was written for the people of his day, and not ours.

And "whole" army. Do you know how many "armies" the Russians have (assuming, as I beleive, that Rosh/Gog of Magog is Russia)?. TEN! Ten seperate armies in 4 seperate Districts.

This explanation for Rosh was something that was proposed in the 1700's and resulted in an interpretation that is only perpetuated in a cult expecting a pretribulation rapture, that was invented back in the early 1800's.
Anyone not in that cult realized that Rosh means leader, and has nothing to do with Russia.

A large force made of many countries will attack Israel before or during the last days. Note......depending on what scholar/pastor/seminary/interpretation you look at the Ez 38 war is NOT the battle of Armegaddon. It is seperate. In fact their might even be another Arab-Israeli war BEFORE the EZ 38 war.

Just more speculation based on an old interpretation perpetuated by a cult.
I have a question: Why is it that the people in this cult talk about Ezekiel 38 but never say anything about chapter 39?
Is it that when you read it, you realize the whole thing is a sort of allegory?
I think the answer is, Yes.

reply to post by DarkKnight21


Heres some thoughts here. The Barnabas epistle. The day of the Lord is a thousand years long. It would seem to me he is referring to the day of Jezreel prophesy of Hosea.

In the book of Hosea it is prophesied that Israel was to be destroyed but then restored at distant time in the future. The latter days as Hosea puts it. But the thing about Hosea is that he includes a time frame for the day of Jezreel.

Three days. Here's the verses.

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

And if you know how the bible plays with how time is measured then you are aware of 2nd Peter 3-8. Where a day in the presence of the Lord is as a thousand years on the earth. Literally it's prophesied that Israel would be dead for 2000 years and then restored for a 1000.

It would appear that Barnabas and Hosea are in agreement as to approximately when the 1000 year day of the Lord takes place.

As to the stars representing nations I would say no. While nations may cease to exist after the opening of the 6th seal the precedent here is Daniel. Stars in symbolism represent saints. Saints falling to earth there is not whats happening. If anything it's the reverse. I don't believe there is any symbolism here. I think its actually fire and brimstone falling to earth. Meteors and such.


Other questions. Time before Adam. Very simple. Before Adam there was the 7 days of creation. But it can't be a simple 7 days though. Modern science thinks that from the big band 13.7 billion years has elapsed. So the simple explanation is this. Those days are simply 7 periods of time. They are "days" to God but God is normally a being that lives outside of time as we know it. Currently a "day" to God is like a thousand years on the earth but there is nothing that states that is a fixed value for all time.

Was Revelation 12 fulfilled yet? No. Why? We haven't seen a "day of the Lord" yet. The opening of the 6th seal of Revelation is an event that everyone will know is happening as it occurs. It simply hasn't happened yet.

reply to post by ntech

Was Revelation 12 fulfilled yet? No. Why? We haven't seen a "day of the Lord" yet.

There is no mention of a "day of the Lord" in Revelation.
The Epistle of Barnabas is not in the Bible.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by ntech

 

Was Revelation 12 fulfilled yet? No. Why? We haven't seen a "day of the Lord" yet.

There is no mention of a "day of the Lord" in Revelation.
The Epistle of Barnabas is not in the Bible.

No. The day of the Lord reference is in Isaiah 13.

1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.



Now look at the 6th seal of Revelation. That's a day of the Lord event. Isaiah 13 is a retelling of Revelation. Or vice versa. Revelation merely has more details.

While Barnabas didn't make the cut as far as getting into the Bible it does cover some of the same material that did make the cut. It's a interesting look at the beliefs that were floating around in the latter part of the first century AD. He is aware of the temple destruction but apparently the bar Kochba revolt of 135 AD has not happened yet.

But I would say he has the 7000 year concept down properly though.

reply to post by ntech

Isaiah 13 is a retelling of Revelation. Or vice versa.

Or Revelation is just borrowing some of the language from Isaiah.
Isaiah is talking about the literal Babylon and Revelation is talking about a spiritual Babylon.

reply to post by DarkKnight21

or one generation (70 years according to Psalm 90:10) after Israel's recreation and the blooming of the fig tree.

What is the meaning of the fig tree? And what is your source for the interpretation of the meaning of the fig tree?

I assume from the context of your remarks that you are referring to the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. But where in the Bible or the Talmud is Israel referred to as a fig tree?

Secondly, Psalm 90:10 speaks of the length of a person's life, not the length of a generation.

Thirdly, a reading of the genealogies in Matthew shows that the Bible considers a "generation" to be about 40 years. Chapter 1, verse 17 says "Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ." The destruction of the Temple was in 586 BC., which was the highlight of the exile. The entire thing lasted from 597-537 BC. Christ was commonly thought to have lived anywhere from 7 BC-36 AD.

Depending on where you want to start and end counting, you have a period of 544-633 years; divided by 14, this means the Bible considered a "generation" to be 38.85-45.21 years, not 70. (Figures rounded off to the nearest 1/100 of a year.)

Maybe he thinks Ezekiel would be a more credible prophet if he had called them "tanks" and "planes" when such words didn't exist. He doesn't seem to understand that writers like Ezekiel, Daniel and John were describing what they saw in the terms they understood at the time.

Okay, I'll buy that, except that Ezekiel knew what a chariot was, and if he saw a tank, he wouldn't call it a "horse." An iron beast, maybe, but a horse? And what about air support? Why didn't Ezekiel talk about "iron birds" that "rain fire?"

Funny how he only quotes a minor detail of Ezekiel 38 and leaves out all that relevant stuff about the hostile nations surrounding Israel. This is happening today....This is the battle of Gog and Magog.

The nations surrounding Israel aren't going to do a thing to them, not with Israel's 300 nuclear warheads aimed at their capitals. And you should really do a study of Gog/Magog and all the other names in that chapter, and by a "study," I mean one independent of Bible scholars. The names refer to the ethnic peoples who settled mostly in Turkey. Some of them did settle in parts of Iraq, Iran, Libya, Ethiopia and Syria, but none of those countries are equipped to invade a nuclear-armed nation by land, even with all of their forces combined.

reply to post by Snsoc


I'm not Darkknight21 but I can answer the questions you are raising here. To start with.

Q. What is the meaning of the fig tree? And what is your source for the interpretation of the meaning of the fig tree?

What the fig tree reference is what's called a veiled reference. Jesus Christ uses a number of these in his teachings. Why? This.

Matthew 13.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

There are some people in the world for various reasons that are simply not supposed to understand.

Now here is how the fig tree parable works. Using the let the bible solve the bible principle.

First off look for all the fig tree references made by Jesus Christ.

Matthew 21
18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Mark 11 has the same story more or less.

Matthew 24
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark 13 mostly the same story.

Luke 13
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Then Luke 21. It has a small but important additional nugget of information.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


So the clues are The tree is cursed. The tree dies. But according to Luke the tree is to given another chance at a later time. Also the fig tree is important in the determination of when is the end of the world and the return of Jesus Christ. So what we need to determine is "what is the fig tree"? And why is it cursed? Apparently there is a back story to the fig tree parables that never made it to the books. We need to recreate it.

Continued.

reply to post by ntech

There are some people in the world for various reasons that are simply not supposed to understand.

Now here is how the fig tree parable works. Using the let the bible solve the bible principle.

Parables are not IQ tests. No one is "not supposed" to understand.
People have a difficult time understanding complex concepts so Jesus taught them in parables, so they could understand, not to prevent all but the most intelligent from understanding.
So are making it out as if it was a puzzle that you have to go to other books to find the clues for. That is where you get the worse interpretations because you make up stuff the authors were never trying to say.
The withered fig tree story was not a parable but something that actually happened.
As for Luke's telling of a parable, the sensible explanation is they were already given the "second" chance, right then, after what happened from Nebuchadnezzar. They were taken into captivity, then brought back and nurtured with their nice temple and all. But they still did not "get" it, even with the Lord right in front of them.

reply to post by ntech


So here's how it's done.

The first clue is the curse. Judaism has a specific system of curses built into it. Read Leviticus 26. A top level Leviticus 26 curse is when a nation subject to the Leviticus 26 covenant is destroyed for nonperformance of their side of this covenant. So then the question becomes "Is there a outstanding curse on Israel?" If you look at the history of the last 2000 years it appears that Israel has been serving one since at least 70 AD if not earlier.

So looking for one I came to the "day of Jezreel" prophesy of the book of Hosea. In it I found this.

Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Then I found the timeline of this curse.

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

2 days in the presence of the Lord. According to 2nd Peter 3-8 and Psalms 90 those "days" are thousand year periods of time. The day of Jezreel has a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse in it.

Israel was cursed for 2000 years. And that is how it's the fig tree. The fig tree parables are a veiled reference to the curse placed upon it.

And the kicker? The "all the trees reference". If Israel is a fig tree then who are the other trees? I found that in the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49. According to those prophesies the Israelites are supposed to become a multitude of nations by the end times.

And thats the orchard of Luke 21.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by ntech

 

There are some people in the world for various reasons that are simply not supposed to understand.

Now here is how the fig tree parable works. Using the let the bible solve the bible principle.

Parables are not IQ tests. No one is "not supposed" to understand.
People have a difficult time understanding complex concepts so Jesus taught them in parables, so they could understand, not to prevent all but the most intelligent from understanding.
So are making it out as if it was a puzzle that you have to go to other books to find the clues for. That is where you get the worse interpretations because you make up stuff the authors were never trying to say.
The withered fig tree story was not a parable but something that actually happened.
As for Luke's telling of a parable, the sensible explanation is they were already given the "second" chance, right then, after what happened from Nebuchadnezzar. They were taken into captivity, then brought back and nurtured with their nice temple and all. But they still did not "get" it, even with the Lord right in front of them.

Actually some of the parables are that. As Jesus Christ says in Matthew there is information hidden from the start of the world that he is imparting to the disciples.

Matthew 13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive

Now here is the prophesy of Isaiah that he is referring to in Isaiah 6.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate'
12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

There is sealed information in the sayings of Jesus Christ. And I just showed you how it can be figured out. The reason for it is that Israel has been subjected to a number of curses since the day of Isaiah. But a day is coming when all will be revealed. The day of Jezreel.

reply to post by ntech


So, to put together what you are saying...

The fig tree is Israel, cursed for not accepting the Messiah, and then given a second chance to "bear fruit" at the end of days. Have I got it?

Following that line of reasoning, bearing fruit=accepting Jesus as the Messiah; therefore the flourishing of the fig tree refers to Jews beginning to accept the Messiah, and not to Jews establishing their own state.

Sort of. But I left out a few details here. I should probably add them.

First off is "Why the curse?" It's for the rejection of the messiah but....Which one? There's supposed to be 3 of them according to the book of Malachi. Elijah the prophet was the messenger. Then there was supposed to be the messenger of the covenant. And the Lord.

Malachi 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

The cause of the curse was this.

Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Matthew 17

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Psalms 105
15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

And that is the cause of the curse. John the Baptist wasn't supposed to die the way he did.


Now for your second statement.
"Following that line of reasoning, bearing fruit=accepting Jesus as the Messiah; therefore the flourishing of the fig tree refers to Jews beginning to accept the Messiah, and not to Jews establishing their own state."

I don't think it's just accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Rather I think what they are looking for are "righteous people". Christians are "righteous". But Judaism provided a way to get there as well. And in Matthew 5 Jesus Christ said this.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Christianity merely provides a shortcut.

I believe the fig tree is actually the Jews establishing their own state. It would be required if a new Jewish temple were to be rebuilt. And it would appear that God wants that Jewish temple rebuilt for the end time prophesies to be fulfilled.

Christianity isn't a replacement theology. Rather it's a rescue mission to the rest of the world so that God can fulfill his obligations he made to Abraham, Israel and Moses. With that curse of Malachi in effect Judaism was in no way capable of fulfilling those obligations. So they simply made a new one to do the job.

reply to post by Snsoc

. . . at the end of days. Have I got it?

The "end of days" for the temple in Jerusalem, happened in 70 AD, when the Romans captured Jerusalem and leveled the temple.

A lot of believers in a "future apocalypse" conveniently ignore how strong the belief was prior to the time of Jesus, that the return from Babylonian exile was like a second exodus, and Israel's chance to be restored. The second chance had already happened by the time the Gospel had been preached by the Apostles after Jesus' return to heaven.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Riddle me this then Batman. Read the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49 and then look closely at verse 49-1.

1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

Now ask this question. How do events that happened in the BC era or the first century AD could have possibly fulfilled the prophesies in question? The term last days has as one of it's meanings "When the Israelites have become a multitude of nations."

Daniel 8
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 11
6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 12
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Sorry but you don't understand that there is a time requirement on those prophesies. Which couldn't have been satisfied 2000 years ago.

reply to post by ntech


Also the Gog-Magog disaster.

Ezekiel 38.
8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes

Don't think that's happened yet.

Originally posted by ntech
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Riddle me this then Batman. Read the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49 and then look closely at verse 49-1.

1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

Now ask this question. How do events that happened in the BC era or the first century AD could have possibly fulfilled the prophesies in question? The term last days has as one of it's meanings "When the Israelites have become a multitude of nations."

Daniel 8
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 11
6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 12
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Sorry but you don't understand that there is a time requirement on those prophesies. Which couldn't have been satisfied 2000 years ago.

edit on 21-10-2012 by ntech because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-10-2012 by ntech because: (no reason given)

jmdewey is a bad joke. He tries to refute the book of Revelations and seems to think that the millennial reign of Christ is right now, despite the major mathematical flaw that I've pointed out to him multiple times considering he thinks it began 2000 years ago.

Personally I think it's because he is anti-semite or anti-Israel, so of course he's going to try to refute Gog Magog as well. He pretty much calls everyone who doesn't agree with him a cult member. I can't say I blame him though, as the Deceiver has already set up shop in Jerusalem.

reply to post by ntech

. . . that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

That is the KJV, but it just means "in the future".

How do events that happened in the BC era or the first century AD could have possibly fulfilled the prophesies in question?

Jesus came after Jacob.

The term last days has as one of it's meanings "When the Israelites have become a multitude of nations."

Huh?

Sorry but you don't understand that there is a time requirement on those prophesies. Which couldn't have been satisfied 2000 years ago.

It is generally undestood that everything described in Daniel already happened.

reply to post by DarkKnight21

jmdewey is a bad joke.

No jokes involved.

He tries to refute the book of Revelations . . .

I join in with the mainstream view held by Christian biblical scholars who interpret Revelation metaphorically. I also hold the view that those who attempt to interpret Revelation literally are in the domain of the cults.

. . . and seems to think that the millennial reign of Christ is right now, . . .

A metaphorical millennium.

. . . despite the major mathematical flaw that I've pointed out to him multiple times considering he thinks it began 2000 years ago.

That is where the term "metaphorical" comes in.

Personally I think it's because he is anti-semite or anti-Israel,

A modern so-called Jewish state illegally occupying Palestine is not the biblical Israel just because it calls themselves that. It is the Zionist regime. So technically I am not "anti-Israel" but anti-fake-Israel.

. . . so of course he's going to try to refute Gog Magog as well.

It is either literal or metaphorical, but your theory merges the two by picking and choosing which aspects of the story is or isn't.

He pretty much calls everyone who doesn't agree with him a cult member.

Part of the cult brainwashing is to make the members think they are not in a cult.

I can't say I blame him though, as the Deceiver has already set up shop in Jerusalem.

The same one who has been around since Eden.