Born again... and again?

Originally posted by Akragon

How does one return to their mothers womb?

They don't, and Job knew it. He may have wished to be back in his mother's womb based on these verses...

Job 3:10-11

10 Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

But clearly, Job knew that he wouldn't be going back to his mother's womb and where he would go if he died in...

Job 30:23

23 For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.

Matthew 6:25

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

This was another one of those verses telling them not to get all wrapped up in the Mosaic laws about what to eat and how to dress, because they should focus on the Spirit and not their bodies.

On your way out, do you plan on stopping by "heaven"?

IF so... that means you've already been there... Correct?

Yes, I plan on stopping by the heaven that God prepared just for us. No, I don't believe I've been there before. I believe every soul goes to the current "Paradise" after they die and before the Great White Throne Judgement. After the judgement, the New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven for all man's souls to inhabit.

SO if someone came from heaven, and doesn't learn what they're here to learn.... do they go to hell after they die?

I think the Holy Spirit lets us know when we've become "children of God", but I don't believe that we were all living souls before we were born on this earth.

As for hell, I can't help but think that we'll be given EVERY opportunity to avoid it before anyone is condemned to it.

reply to post by Deetermined

They don't, and Job knew it. He may have wished to be back in his mother's womb based on these verses...

Job 3:10-11

10 Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

Perhaps you should read the entire chapter before making a statement like this?

After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

2 And Job spake, and said,

3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.


He is cursing the day he was born... this has nothing to do with reincarnation, and certianly not a rejection of it... read further into the chapter...

13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

IF he died at birth... he would have no knowledge of anything if he didn't exist before hand... and thus none of the strife he was going through in his life...

Would you call that rest? No knowledge of anything?

Perhaps non existance is rest?

What is the need of rest if one didn't exist to experience said rest in the first place?

Rest from what?

OR

would rest be existing with God?

But clearly, Job knew that he wouldn't be going back to his mother's womb and where he would go if he died in...

Job 30:23

23 For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.

I don't agree with this inturpretation ...

That passage says nothing about him "clearly knowing" he wouldn't return to the womb... and it would contradict what the previous passage said either way

This was another one of those verses telling them not to get all wrapped up in the Mosaic laws about what to eat and how to dress, because they should focus on the Spirit and not their bodies.

I agree...

As it said in Genesis... the body is nothing more then dust...

Yes, I plan on stopping by the heaven that God prepared just for us. No, I don't believe I've been there before.

So you disargree with Jesus on this one... Fair enough

I think the Holy Spirit lets us know when we've become "children of God", but I don't believe that we were all living souls before we were born on this earth.

You're free to believe what you will...

As for hell, I can't help but think that we'll be given EVERY opportunity to avoid it before anyone is condemned to it.

So you believe a good father should burn his children if they screw up their lives....

Interesting

Originally posted by Akragon

Perhaps you should read the entire chapter before making a statement like this?

I read Job, Chapters 1, 2 & 3 before I made my statement.

After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

2 And Job spake, and said,

3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

He is cursing the day he was born... this has nothing to do with reincarnation, and certianly not a rejection of it... read further into the chapter...

Precisely my point, NONE of it has to do with reincarnation (IMO).

13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

IF he died at birth... he would have no knowledge of anything if he didn't exist before hand... and thus none of the strife he was going through in his life...

Would you call that rest? No knowledge of anything?

Perhaps non existance is rest?

What is the need of rest if one didn't exist to experience said rest in the first place?

Just like my original statement, I'm sure Job was humanly and secretly wishing for anything other than what he was going through.

I don't agree with this inturpretation ...

That passage says nothing about him "clearly knowing" he wouldn't return to the womb... and it would contradict what the previous passage said either way.

Job 30:23 did not contradict Job 1:21. I think the problem might be in your much wanted interpretation of Job 1:21.

So you disargree with Jesus on this one... Fair enough

No, I don't disagree with Jesus on this verse. Once again, I think you misinterpreted John 3:13.

John 3:13

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I think you believe that the way the word "even" is being used means that we all came down from Heaven before we ascend back to Heaven. Personally, I think "even" means Jesus has the ability to be in Heaven "even" while he's ascending or descending from it. I don't think anyone other than Jesus was in Heaven before coming to earth.

So you believe a good father should burn his children if they screw up their lives....

I think the Father will give every child chance after chance after chance to accept him or reject him before he makes final judgement. But, if you really think about it, the child that's given chance after chance after chance and still rejects God after knowing the truth, just sealed his own fate by choice, didn't he? Free will.

reply to post by Deetermined

Personally, I think "even" means Jesus has the ability to be in Heaven "even" while he's ascending or descending from it. I don't think anyone other than Jesus was in Heaven before coming to earth.

No this won't be accurate. Brother was fully here when he was here, he was not split. There was no need for him to be above and here at the same time, as his task required his full attention here at said time.

There were many above that came down to inhabit the physical body.

Enoch is an archangel over meetings, but you know him as what is written in the bible as of now. He came in the flesh, but his task, was not that like Jesus's task.

reply to post by jhill76

There were many above that came down to inhabit the physical body.

Enoch is an archangel over meetings, but you know him as what is written in the bible as of now. He came in the flesh, but his task, was not that like Jesus's task.

But angels and archangels aren't human.

Where in the Bible does it say that human souls inhabited the heavens at the same time angels did?

We all know that humans don't turn into angels after the fact.

reply to post by Deetermined

Where in the Bible does it say that human souls inhabited the heavens at the same time angels did?

Angels existed before man did. Mans spirit started in heaven, they don't interact as the angels do above, they sit until they inhabit a physical body, in a suspended state. You only get to fully walk around and interact above, once you have passed the test of life.

All of these details are not written. It's like asking, show me in the bible, how God made the soul.

We all know that humans don't turn into angels after the fact.

This is for another thread. There are some called from man, to live in heaven forever with Father, and not inherit the Earth as man will. Not angels, but different.

reply to post by jhill76

You only get to fully walk around and interact above, once you have passed the test of life.

Didn't you say in the past that man's souls also sit in a suspended state after death too? Until they make up their mind about Jesus?

reply to post by Deetermined

Precisely my point, NONE of it has to do with reincarnation (IMO).

I disagree

Let me ask... If you were never taught that reincarnation didn't exist... what would you think of that verse?

Just like my original statement, I'm sure Job was humanly and secretly wishing for anything other than what he was going through.

Fair enough

But you didn't answer any of my question...

Job 30:23 did not contradict Job 1:21. I think the problem might be in your much wanted interpretation of Job 1:21.

I know it doesn't... Because that chapter has nothing to do with what he was talking about in the first one

In that verse Job is saying i came into this world with nothing... and i will leave it the same way...

He knew exactly what he was talking about in this verse, that being reincarnation (IMHO)

Theres also some debate as to whither or not Job was a jew or Gentile... Regardless of which he was the idea of reincarnation was obviously known at the time... Though some will argue otherwise...

No, I don't disagree with Jesus on this verse. Once again, I think you misinterpreted John 3:13.

John 3:13

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I think you believe that the way the word "even" is being used means that we all came down from Heaven before we ascend back to Heaven. Personally, I think "even" means Jesus has the ability to be in Heaven "even" while he's ascending or descending from it. I don't think anyone other than Jesus was in Heaven before coming to earth.

No it doesn't have to do with the word "even"... It has to do with the words... "no man hath ascended to heaven but those that came from heaven"

You blatantly disagreed with it...

Obvious Jesus came from so called "heaven"... he said it a billion times

I think the Father will give every child chance after chance after chance to accept him or reject him before he makes final judgement. But, if you really think about it, the child that's given chance after chance after chance and still rejects God after knowing the truth, just sealed his own fate by choice, didn't he? Free will.

So like i said... a good father should burn his child to death if said child rejects his teachings...

reply to post by Akragon

So like i said... a good father should burn his child to death if said child rejects his teachings...

Remember, the Bible also called some people the seed of Satan.

By the way, what do you think the purpose of free will was?

God wasn't going to FORCE anyone to follow him.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

So like i said... a good father should burn his child to death if said child rejects his teachings...

Remember, the Bible also called some people the seed of Satan.

By the way, what do you think the purpose of free will was?

God wasn't going to FORCE anyone to follow him.

"the bible" says a lot of things i don't agree with... plenty of things that are completely absurd too

Jesus called "the rock" (peter) satan did he not?

Free will is for learning on your own... You and everyone has the ability to accept or reject what they learn, and what they're taught... Its the only way to test ones heart...

Love brings us to God of our own free will... Selfishness, steers one in the opposite direction...

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by jhill76

 

You only get to fully walk around and interact above, once you have passed the test of life.

Didn't you say in the past that man's souls also sit in a suspended state after death too? Until they make up their mind about Jesus?

Yes. They sit until judgement, or upon his return. This is if you haven't passed. Chhosing the world over God will cause you to fail per se.

reply to post by jhill76

Yes. They sit until judgement, or upon his return. This is if you haven't passed. Chhosing the world over God will cause you to fail per se.

Doesn't that kind of contradict reincarnation? Thinking you believed in reincarnation, wouldn't you just reincarnate if you haven't passed?

Thinking deeper into the matter, why would we have reincarnation? If there's a veil between the heavens and the earth, as well as the ability to remember past lives, what would be the purpose in it? How can you perfect yourself through reincarnation if you don't remember what you might have learned before?

reply to post by Akragon

Jesus called "the rock" (peter) satan did he not?

"Why did Jesus say to Peter, “Get behind me Satan”?"

www.gotquestions.org...

Unwittingly, Peter was speaking for Satan. Like Jesus’ adversary, Peter was not setting his mind on the things of God—His ways, His plans, and His purposes (Colossians 3:2; Isaiah 55:8-9). Instead, his mind was set on the things of man, the things of the world and its earthly values. Jesus was saying that the way of the cross was God’s will, the plan of redemption for all mankind. Peter’s reaction was most likely shared by the other disciples although, as always, it was Peter who spoke first. Peter was inadvertently being used of Satan in thinking he was protecting Jesus. Satan had purposely tempted Jesus in the wilderness to divert Him from the cross, from fulfilling the grand design of the Father and the Son (Mark 1:12-13). Innocently, Peter was doing the same thing. He had not yet grasped Jesus’ true Messianic purpose.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by jhill76

 

Yes. They sit until judgement, or upon his return. This is if you haven't passed. Chhosing the world over God will cause you to fail per se.

Doesn't that kind of contradict reincarnation? Thinking you believed in reincarnation, wouldn't you just reincarnate if you haven't passed?

Thinking deeper into the matter, why would we have reincarnation? If there's a veil between the heavens and the earth, as well as the ability to remember past lives, what would be the purpose in it? How can you perfect yourself through reincarnation if you don't remember what you might have learned before?

Perhaps i can offer a theory

Imagine in one incarnation you were a thief, a murderer... and a bunch of other nasty stuff... During said lifetime you learn that murder is not right... You feel it and eventually believe it as "truth"... you lead a long life and die.

At your judgement it is known that you've learned some of that lesson... (selfishness) yet you still believe stealing is fine... perhaps a few other things that don't Line up with God as well... You haven't learned all of what is needed to progress, and thus you will return, but during that lifetime you will retain that "feeling" that murder is wrong, and when you're eventually taught that lesson, you accept it without question...

Pistis Sophia combines the ideas of reincarnation and divine union in a passage that begins with the question: What happens to "a man who has committed no sin, but done good persistently, but has not found the mysteries?" The Pistis Sophia tells us that the soul of the good man who has not found the mysteries will receive "a cup filled with thoughts and wisdom." This will allow the soul to remember its divine origin and so to pursue the "mysteries of the Light" until it finds them and is able to "inherit the Light forever." To "inherit the Light forever" is a Gnostic code for union with God.

"Why did Jesus say to Peter, “Get behind me Satan”?"

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.... perhaps you might try to answer a few questions i asked instead of dancing around them

reply to post by Akragon

Free will is for learning on your own... You and everyone has the ability to accept or reject what they learn, and what they're taught... Its the only way to test ones heart...

Love brings us to God of our own free will... Selfishness, steers one in the opposite direction...

How do you know that everyone is going to experience love at sometime here on earth? How do you know whether or not someone is going to choose to be selfish over and over and over again or not? How do you know this is going to happen in a human lifetime?

Here's what I think. I think there's a lot that happens between death and the judgement that the Bible doesn't speak of. I think anything that's not experienced here on earth will be experienced in the spiritual realm until they are either reconciled back to God, or not. I don't see it possible for anyone to learn the truth of such things by reincarnating here on earth.

Therefore, I believe in the scripture that says...

Hebrews 9:27

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

reply to post by Akragon

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.... perhaps you might try to answer a few questions i asked instead of dancing around them

Well, you were the one who brought it up and asked it, so I answered it.

What other questions have I not answered? I thought I addressed them all. If I left anything out in particular, let me know and I'll be happy to answer them.

reply to post by Akragon

Free will is for learning on your own... You and everyone has the ability to accept or reject what they learn, and what they're taught... Its the only way to test ones heart...

Love brings us to God of our own free will... Selfishness, steers one in the opposite direction...

If this was a "debate" and I was the "judge", I'd say that Akragon wins. (vs Dee)

reply to post by Akragon

Let me ask... If you were never taught that reincarnation didn't exist... what would you think of that verse?

To be honest with you, there was a time in my life that I was spending more time reading New Age books than I was reading my Bible. For a period of two years, I believed all of it, based on what the books were saying about souls existing before, picking our own families when we come down, reincarnation, all of it.

Then later, I focused on just reading the Bible and none of the New Age books felt real to me any more. I was beginning to feel like Christianity was turning into a "feel good" religion that wasn't based on scripture any more and that we were all being duped into believing that Christianity should be only about what we wanted it to be.

After reconnecting with God, spending more time in scripture and more time in prayer, I came to realize that we were trying to make God into what we wanted him to be and not realizing who he really was.

reply to post by Deetermined

Therefore, I believe in the scripture that says...

Hebrews 9:27 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Yes, correct. But, there are many cycles. This is not the first time man has been on this Earth. Each cycle you can only come once.

reply to post by wildtimes


Of course! Most of us already know that you ditched Christianity a long time ago!