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I've been watching these threads now for four solid years waiting to see the words "You do realize that by exercising OUR freedom of speech we're trampling on THEIR freedom to believe what they believe".
But what folks seem to lose track of, for some reason, is the same amendment, the FIRST amendment also grants freedom of religion. Now we have conflict. Which right has more merit? Both speech and religion are the most sincere and deepest forms of self expression. Does one trump the other?
Originally posted by Hefficide
I've been watching these threads now for four solid years waiting to see the words "You do realize that by exercising OUR freedom of speech we're trampling on THEIR freedom to believe what they believe".
~Heff
Originally posted by The Old American
A Muhammad Cartoon A Day
I don't usually post things from Fox News (I don't even visit their website), but I got this article from a friend, so I thought I'd post it here for ATS. It could be an interesting social experiment. Even the most extreme person gets "overstimulated" by their obsession and can lose interest.
Perhaps if people showed the extremists that we're tired of their bullying and aren't afraid of them, they'd go away.
/TOA
Daniel Pipes was born in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1949.His parents were Polish Jews who had each fled German-occupied Poland, and met in the United States.
In 1990, Pipes wrote in the National Review that "Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene
Through his Middle East Forum, Pipes fund-raised for the Dutch politician Geert Wilders during his trial, according to NRC Handelsblad.Pipes himself praised Wilders in January 2010 as "the unrivaled leader of those Europeans who wish to retain their historic [European] identity."
According to The New York Times, Pipes has "enraged" many American Muslims by advocating that Muslims in government and military positions be given special attention as security risks and by opining that mosques are "breeding grounds for militants."[33] In an article entitled "Japanese Internment: Why It Was a Good Idea--And the Lessons It Offers Today", Pipes endorsed a defense of the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II, and linked the Japanese-American wartime situation to that of Muslim Americans today.
In October, 2001 Pipes said, before the convention of the American Jewish Congress. "I worry very much, from the Jewish point of view, that the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims, because they are so much led by an Islamist leadership, that this will present true dangers to American Jews."
n addition, Pipes sparked a controversy when he was invited to speak at the University of Toronto in March 2005. A letter from professors, staff and students asserted that Pipes had a "long record of xenophobic, racist and sexist speech that goes back to 1990."
On his own website and in articles for The Jerusalem Post, Pipes claimed that Barack Obama was a former Muslim. He alleged that Obama falsely claims that he had never been a Muslim, and that "the campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that Obama never prayed in a mosque.
In 2002 and 2003, Pipes was a strong backer of the Iraq War, saying that Saddam Hussein posed an "imminent threat" to the United States
Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
reply to post by 00nunya00
How about when they bomb clinics or kill doctors? The Ku Klux Klan best represents one form of Christian terrorism, burning a cross to demonstrate reverence for Christ;
Christian terrorism
They were explicitly Christian terrorist in ideology, basing their beliefs on a "religious foundation" in Christianity.[64] The goals of the KKK included, from an early time on, an intent to "reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible," and believe that "Jesus was the first Klansman."[65] Their cross-burnings were conducted not only to intimidate targets, but to demonstrate their respect and reverence for Jesus Christ, and the lighting ritual was steeped in Christian symbolism, including the saying of prayers and singing of Christian hymns.[66] Many modern Klan organizations, such as the Knights Party, USA, continue to
focus on the Christian supremacist message, asserting that there is a "war" on to destroy "western Christian civilization."
This doesn't begin to touch the bombings of clinics and murders of doctors.
Sure these types of Christians don't issue "fatwas" in the modern sense, although some Christians faiths do issue "Blood Atonement" (Mormons), murder condoned by the Church. So please, spare us the "Christians are superior" hokum, Islam and Christians (and Judaism) are exactly alike.
One thing to distinguish, is that the United States government doesn't issue such proclamations as Fatwas or encourage the sort of Christian terrorism practiced by KKK and that ilk - that has as much to do with the separation of Church and State, a guiding principle of our foundation. Iran's government and it's religion are one and the same, which makes such proclamations more dangerous. Imagine if the KKK or some of these other extremist Evangelical groups were also the government here, then you would be seeing how radical a merger of
Church and State could be.
Originally posted by kingofmd
Let's have a competition, since all of these groups are alike. Starting today, we will tally how many people are killed, and by which faith as their motivating factor. I will be nice and take the Christians, Mormons, and Jews. You get the Muslims. Whoever's number is the highest by Friday wins, and has to delete their ATS account, never posting again.
Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
If and when this is done to Christians, do you also think "it's about time we stood up to those Christian bullies"? Or does it become, "why are they always picking on Christians"? Or "Christians/Christianity under attack" - which we see so many thread about lately.
You're singling out the extremists in Islam to justify showing intolerance to their religion. Intolerance bcreeds intolerance.edit on 2-10-2012 by Blackmarketeer because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Hefficide
I've been watching these threads now for four solid years waiting to see the words "You do realize that by exercising OUR freedom of speech we're trampling on THEIR freedom to believe what they believe".
I've yet to see that post. If it ever happened, I missed it.
America has learned this strange distortion of the word "freedom" so that it now means "You are free to do what we say and you'll call it freedom and you'll like it or we'll bomb you".
That's not freedom. That's extremism, totalitarianism, despotism, and value projection.
Free means free - not just free to agree with what we say.
~Heff
Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
You know, the one analysis I don't see is of who is riling up these essentially ignorant masses.
I had absolutely no issues with it untill the end and he "Our God tells us what to wear"... At that point I sighed and left.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
You know, the one analysis I don't see is of who is riling up these essentially ignorant masses.
I delved into that with this thread, Clash of Civilizations or Politically Manufactured Rage? but not many are eager to discuss the CORE of the problem. They buzz around the periphery, hating and fearing, spinning themselves into a childish frenzy, without ever thinking to examine WHO BENEFITS in all this craziness.
We are being used as pawns in a political game that most refuse to acknowledge. They think it's about religion. And American Christians are just as hoodwinked and guilty as the Muslim fanatic extremists of playing along to keep the rage and fear going... It's a fantastic control mechanism! The divide and conquer works within a country AS WELL AS within religious belief. If you can manipulate what the people hold dear, you can control them with it.
If we all realized just how USED we are in this fight, we could just STOP and it would be over.
What if someone drew a Mohammad cartoon and nobody came?
Or what if someone pissed on Christ and no one responded?
This whole attitude of, "Well they did it FIRST"! or "If they can do it, we can do it"! :shk: It's about the most childish and insecure behavior I can imagine! Who gives a flying fig if someone "insults" your religion? Is your religion about how others behave? Does your religion depend on others respecting it? And most importantly, Is your standard of behavior based on what some extremist in another country THINKS??? Give me a break!
Sometimes, people baffle me completely.