Jesus was a "Muslim"

reply to post by WarminIndy

Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by babloyi

 

See Bablyoi, this is where you seem to be committing taqqiyah. Everyone in the world knows about Hajj being a part of the Five Pillars of Faith in Islam, with shahada being the first. Everyone knows about the black stone and what it means.

Committing Taqqiyah
So I guess I'm in discussion with the sort of person who'd be going "Kol Nidre! Kol Nidre!" if he was conversing about a jew while in Nazi Germany. Good to know what sort of human being I'm talking to, at least. It is also cool how you simultaneously called me a liar, yet were vague enough about what exactly I was lying about, so that if I pointed to one part of my original statement, you'd deny, and cry innocence.
What has the Hajj got to do with any of our discussion so far?

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Come on, rope-a-dope some more, when you confess that to be a Muslim you must confess Allah and Mohammed. I asked you to show me where Jesus acknowledged that, you said "paraclete" then I gave you the definition and then showed you what happens during hajj.

Actually, you asked me where in the Bible Jesus said the Shahada, and I pointed out the "Hear O Israel" (From Jesus as well as Paul). THEN you asked me to show where Muhammad was mentioned in the Bible for some reason (if you're want information about Muhammad being a prophesied messenger in the Bible, you should go ahead and start a thread on it. There are some very interesting theories), and I brought up the paraclete (although there is also a literal mention of his name in the Song of Solomon, but that is OT, before Jesus).

I ask again since you didn't seem to answer it last time (even though you quoted my entire question):
Do you know what the word "Muslim" means? What has that got to do with the legalistic understanding of "SHOW WHERE HE SAID THE SHAHADA! SHOW SHOW SHOW!"?

Nobody except you seems to be suggesting that the sum totality of "Muslimness" is a series of legalistic or ritual steps. Did you read the original post in this thread? Because it made no mention of the shahadah, or pillars of Islam, or Hajj.

Originally posted by babloyi
There are about 14 million jews around today. By your logic, they don't exist, or they don't matter,

The number of Jews on the planet is IRRELEVANT when discussing what percentage of Christians believe in a Trinity God. Come on .. this isn't rocket science. It's pretty obvious you are in left field.

The fact remains .. most Christians believe in a Trinity God.
The fact remains ... they get it from their interpretation of the bible.
The fact remains ... the god of the Muslims is not the same god of the Christians.
The fact remains .. Jesus was not a Muslim. If He was, He wouldn't have started his own church.
The fact remains .. Islam was invented by Muhammed in the 600s .. hundreds of years after Christ.

I'm not going to bother to discuss this anymore. Obviously you are going to think whatever you want even though the facts show different. And yes .. these are FACTS that I'm posting .. not opinion (unlike you who are just posting opinon).

Back Engineering. Good luck with that. OUT.

reply to post by FlyersFan

When the Jews and Muslims start to worship Christ as God incarnate ...

I will consider that the moment you show me ONE place in the bible where Jesus directly states he is God.

I want to see a direct statement, not a set of verses which are often composited together to derive the conclusion that Jesus is God.

Hint : He said a ton of things, but that statement wasn't one.

reply to post by WarminIndy

And the monotheism of the Jews is still the monotheism of Christians.

I dont know about that....

Flyersfan, a christian says otherwise...

Jews and Muslims have a monotheism. Christians have a Holy Trinity. One God but three persons. It's not even close to what the Jews and Muslims believe.

Is there ANYTHING you christians agree with each other upon? Its quite ridiculous really.

reply to post by WarminIndy

If the Hebrew Bible is saying legends from earlier sources, it would merely indicate that many of those ancient cultures did believe in a flood account. Your Quran is relying on the Hebrew story, and if the Jews got it wrong...that means the Quran was wrong.

No one knows if the Israelites got it "right" or "wrong".

And you seem to think Older = Truer .

The Koran was a seperate revelation to another people.... which repeated many of the Hebrew stories with slight variations here and there.

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7

.
And you are a little confused between a prophecy and what you said. Do u think archeologists were digging around in 7th century?? Or egyptiology was taught in arabia? And my statement was that if that finding is used to advertise the OT then would it be acknowledged that Quran said it more precisely.

Can you prove that statement that the Quran said it more precisely? You have not been able to do that all along. What you have only managed to do was show us the Quran says it more incorrectly. And on top of that, you can't even show us any Quran pre-Uthman.

Show me anything pre-Uthman. Uthman burned other Quranic verses. But show us, please? Otherwise, we have to believe that Uthman is solely responsible for your Quran. And if Uthman is solely responsible for the Quran, then how do you know it is correct? Because Uthman told you it was correct?

How was allah capable of preserving the Quran by allowing Uthman to burn verses? And if it is a great sin to desecrate the Quran, why was Uthman allowed to get by with it?

Isn't this the reason for the division of Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims? You can't even agree with each other who is Muslim and then tell us about our different churches. Uthman played a game and you are forced to accept it.

you are the SHOW ME, SHOW ME dude!!
Here about pharoh
(10:90) And We led the Children of Israel across the sea. Then Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them in iniquity and transgression until Pharaoh cried out while he was drowning: 'I believe that there is no god but Allah in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am also one of those who submit to Allah.
(10:91) (Thereupon came the response): 'Now you believe, although you disobeyed earlier and were one of the mischief-makers.
(10:92) We shall now save your corpse that you may serve as a sign of warning for all posterity, although many men are heedless of Our signs.
.
And shia sunni divide happened before Usman(r.a)
.
We muslims actually burn too tattered copies of Quran. its the intention behind the act that differs.
.
Your depth of ignorance about islam is extensive. But not your fault, you are a victim of a big organised religion's agenda.

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Where Jesus says 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."

Do you know what the word "Muslim" means? What has that got to do with the legalistic understanding of "SHOW WHERE HE SAID THE SHAHADA! SHOW SHOW SHOW!"?

And no, the sunni-shia divide has nothing at all to do with Uthman and the Quran.

edit on 8-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

And then, can you explain this...?
فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ
So blessed is Allaah, the best of creators.
[Soorah Al-Muminoon, 23:14]

The best of creators? If he was the only creator then there would not be any need to recognize others. So there were other creators besides allah?

Surah 23:14 Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.

The Bible says this "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"...notice here that it does not say "In the beginning the best of creators created the heaven and the earth". That would imply other creators, in basic English.

yes there are other creators, someone who wants to create a statue, an aeroplane like a bird, a submarine like a fish, ya there are humans who create, but take a guess about who is Best??

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy

yes there are other creators, someone who wants to create a statue, an aeroplane like a bird, a submarine like a fish, ya there are humans who create, but take a guess about who is Best??

The above verse posted was clearly talking about human creation. It did not indicate the other as your imams lead you to believe.

You see, the problem you have is this, because imams and scholars must justify the Quran by any means necessary, and in order to legitimize the Quran, thereby legitimizing Islam, they have to come up with more elaborate lies. All of your replies have been patterned responses and the rest of us have dealt with your types of arguments. Because you are not encouraged to think on your own, any question you have you must go to an imam or scholar and have them explain it to you, they lie to you and know that because you must rely on their lies you will believe anything.

The order of Muslim arguments...
1:Introduce the subject of Jesus (appealing to Christians to legitimize the Quran) : Tell us that Isa is Jesus and that we have the same God.
2: Point out the Quran has the same stories. (Again, trying to legitimize the Quran)
3:Tell us then our Scripture is wrong, using the Quran.
4:When a Hadith is presented, tell us that it is weak. If it is accepted that the Hadith is strong, tell us we don't understand it.
5:When a Quran verse is presented, tell us that it needs to be spoken in Arabic.
6:Tell us that our Bible was corrupted.
7:When challenged on the Quran, turn it around and say "what about..?"
8:Tell us that every scholar is not correct.
9:Tell us that the Jews killed Jesus, then tell Jews that we kill them.
10:When challenged with history, tell us that history is false.
11: Blame Fundamental Christians for everything.
12: Deny the actions of other Muslims by saying they don't really do those things.
13:When unable to convince us, insult.
14:When insult fails, tell us we offend Mohammed.
15:Tell us we have the same God.
16:Turn to Muslim brothers who fail to help.
17:Turn to scholars you previously denounced.
18:Refer back to the science of the Quran.
19:Tell us the Quran is like the Bible.
20:Tell us the scholars are not all right.
21:Refer back to scholars you just denounced.
22:Refer back to scholars.
23:Tell us the scholars are wrong, that you know more than they, then tell us that you don't know more than they.
24:Refuse to address the inaccuracies in the Quran.
25:Try to convince us that Mohammed was illiterate, that he was not illiterate, that the Quran is a miracle because Mohammed was illiterate, then tell us he was not illiterate, but the Quran is still a miracle.
26:Refer back to the scholars.
27:Use websites that you told us not to use.
28:Try to convince us through the Quran that Mohammed was a nice guy, that Allah allowed him special privileges.
29:Tell us again he is better than Jesus.
30:Refer back to Gnostic Gospels.
31:Refer back to Talmud and Midrash.


Have I got it so far? There are probably a few steps I missed, but you get the point. When it is convenient for you, you use Hadith, then reject the same Hadith when it exposes Mohammed. When it is convenient for you, you tell us to speak Arabic, which I am sure not every Muslim does. When it is convenient for you, tell us what websites to use. When it is convenient for you, tell us the Quran is perfect, but only Muslims can understand it. When it is convenient for you, deny, deny, deny everything historically true while denouncing the very sources the Quran came from.

You have a religion of denial. You have an Allah that permits you to lie for the cause of Islam and then tell us that you don't, which is a lie and you know it is. You commit taqqiyah by denying taqqiyah and think we can't catch on. Has this thread been a text jihad for you? Have you struggled for the cause of Islam? Have you achieved victory over the kafirs?

I leave this thread still a kafir, believing Mohammed was an evil liar and Allah is nothing more than Shaytan. What did you accomplish? Were you victorious in this text jihad? The only thing you accomplished was making sure you and your Muslim friends are walking the line staying good Muslims. Allah forbid you should stray in one thought while on a thread. The fear of others catching you in apostacy is so great, you watch each other to make sure none of you deviate. You lie for each other and Islam. Then you expect us to believe that Jesus was a Muslim. You don't even believe it yourself.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The number of Jews on the planet is IRRELEVANT when discussing what percentage of Christians believe in a Trinity God. Come on .. this isn't rocket science. It's pretty obvious you are in left field.

It was an EXAMPLE I gave as comparison. You know what an EXAMPLE is?
I use them because quite a few people are really dense and don't get what you are talking about otherwise. I guess some people don't even get them with examples? I could have used another comparison with...I dunno...the numbers don't match up, but I could've said "Spiritism". But you probably don't really know what spiritism is, so it wouldn't have worked either. Here it is for you in plain(er) language:
Saying that the beliefs of ¼ of the world's christians are irrelevant to what christianity is, is (mathematically) like discounting the beliefs of all the jews in the world.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The fact remains .. most Christians believe in a Trinity God.
The fact remains ... they get it from their interpretation of the bible.

So far so good....

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The fact remains ... the god of the Muslims is not the same god of the Christians.
The fact remains .. Jesus was not a Muslim. If He was, He wouldn't have started his own church.

Sorry, but your "facts" fall of the rails here. Also, Jesus didn't start his own church.


reply to post by WarminIndy

Originally posted by WarminIndy
The above verse posted was clearly talking about human creation. It did not indicate the other as your imams lead you to believe.

I didn't use an imam to get that interpretation of the verse. I used my common sense, and the ability to approach a text objectively (or at least without automatically thinking "THIS IS WRONG, so I must twist my thinking so that everything is wrong". You realise how absurd and reaching your argument is?
If someone compliments a world famous chef who cooked them a secret recipe cheese and mushroom with garlic omelette with "You are the best cook ever!", I suppose you will respond with "It is obvious from the context that the person only means "You are the best secret cheese and mushroom with garlic omelette chef". No it doesn't. The particular case is given as an example proving the larger point, not that there are dozens of chefs out there who make the same secret omelette. Nobody except you is seeing other creators of humanity there.

I really shouldn't be getting into this sort of mud-slinging, but hey, someone is doing it while pretending to be a christian, so why not?

The order of anti-muslim arguments:
1) Make random and vague accusations against Islam that show a total lack of understanding about Islam and the Quran (moongod! The symbol of islam is the crescent moon! muslims worship a black rock which they believe gets rid of their sins! etc).
2) When called out for that, post quotes from random non-scriptural books, or quotes from some random character (who isn't Muhammad or one of his companions).
3) When called out for doing that, post lists of (out of context, selectively edited or straight out falsified) verses from anti-islam websites as "proof", and claim they are from the Quran.
4) When corrected about these verses (or told that many were from the minor hadith books), totally ignore the corrections and post more verses from these websites.
5) When corrected about those, accuse the guy correcting of being a "deceiver" or practising "Taqiyya".
6) When explained what Taqiyya actually means, totally ignoring, and repeat the process.

Originally posted by babloyi
Also, Jesus didn't start his own church.

I said "OUT" but what the heck. One last post ...

1) your continued jabs and insults are off topic and obnoxious ... and dead wrong.
Grow up and just stick to the factual conversation.

2) When Muslims start to worship a Trinity God then they will be worshiping the same God that the majority of Christians worship. When Muslims start to worship Jesus as GOD, then they will worship the same God as the Christians. Until then ... DIFFERENT GOD.

3 ) Jesus absolutely started his own church and put Peter in charge ...

Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus said ... "You are Peter, the Rock, and upon you I shall build My church. And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

THAT IS JESUS STARTING A CHURCH. 'I SHALL BUILD MY CHURCH'.
That's it. I'm done spoon feeding. OUT

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by babloyi
Also, Jesus didn't start his own church.

I said "OUT" but what the heck. One last post ...

1) your continued jabs and insults are off topic and obnoxious ... and dead wrong.
Grow up and just stick to the factual conversation.

2) When Muslims start to worship a Trinity God then they will be worshiping the same God that the majority of Christians worship. When Muslims start to worship Jesus as GOD, then they will worship the same God as the Christians. Until then ... DIFFERENT GOD.

3 ) Jesus absolutely started his own church and put Peter in charge ...

Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus said ... "You are Peter, the Rock, and upon you I shall build My church. And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

THAT IS JESUS STARTING A CHURCH. 'I SHALL BUILD MY CHURCH'.

That's it. I'm done spoon feeding. OUT

Thank you for breaking your vow!
I havnt been to a sunday school but got a taste of it now.
"dont think, dont question, this is how it is and you better agree"
you put it better in short, "spoon feeding"!!

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by babloyi



Thank you for breaking your vow!
I havnt been to a sunday school but got a taste of it now.
"dont think, dont question, this is how it is and you better agree"
you put it better in short, "spoon feeding"!!

Spoon feeding is just what it means. Feeding someone who is unable or refuses to feed themselves and only giving them soft food because they can't use a knife or fork to feed themselves real meat.

All through this discussion nether FlyersFan or I have dejected, disagreed or renounced anything the other said even though he may be Catholic and I am not. Neither of us has spoon fed each other. But you, on the other hand, have Imam opinions

You have Fatwas that are opinions, you have a quran that tells you how to use the bathroom correctly. You have fatwas that tell you everything except how to think for yourself and then you accuse us of the spoon feeding.

You even have a fatwa about how your index finger should be moving during prayers. You have opinions on what is halal and haram. You have fatwas against listening to music, if your women can talk back, if you should eat beans before prayers, if you should use rocks or toilet paper. You have fatwas for everything, why? Because your imams are full of opinions.

In addition to that, nobody is infallible except Prophets and infallibility is part and parcel of Prophethood. In other words, all people, except Prophets are subject to error, i.e. we can follow some of their correct opinions and refuse others. Therefore, we weigh each and everyone's opinions with al-Wahi (The Qur'an and Sunnah). Then, if we do not find contradiction with al-Wahi, we accept it; otherwise, we refuse it. For example, if someone says: 'so and so knows al-Ghaib (unseen),' we directly refuse such a saying since it contradicts al-Wahi, and the sayer becomes a disbeliever. Allah knows best.

Prophets are infallible? Or do you mean only Mohammed was infallible? And in whose opinion is that? The Bible makes no such assertion that prophets are infallible. What Islam is, it is a cult of personality surrounding the imagined person of Muhammed. Just to prove your imams are wrong. here is what they say..

It is proved in the Prophetic Hadith that: "Jews were divided into seventy one or seventy two groups; and Christians were divided into seventy one or seventy two groups; my Ummah (Muslims) will be divided into seventy three groups." Another narration adds: "All of them (the latter) will be in the Hell-Fire except one group." [ Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmizi and Ibn Majah ]. And it is a sound Hadith.

It is amazing that your imams are so ignorantly stupid that they know nothing about history. That group of seventy Jews were the translators of the Septuagint. Now show me historically if you can, where the Christians were divided into groups. Your imams are ignorantly stupid of everything, they don't even know the sources that make up the Quran. And what is even more amazing...not one single verse from the Septuagint is in the Quran.

The sources that make up the Quran are not even the Torah or the Bible. They are Targums, Midrash, Avestas and Rig Vedas. Everything in the Quran that supposedly was revealed to Muhammed, was already written thousands of years before. Muhammed received no revelation and certainly received no new revelation. But, your imams are ignorantly stupid. Arabic is not a pure language, it borrows words from Persians and Greeks. Your ignorantly stupid imams claim the kaaba is the holiest place on earth in Mecca, but look here....The Kaaba of Zoroaster

Experts believe that the occurrence may lead to the destruction of 2500 year-old edifice, which is located at a distance of five meters from the sinking earth.

For 2,500 years it was called the Ka'aba of Zoroaster. Say to me "think because it's older it is right"...YES. Your Quran writers were ignorantly stupid they could not get the most basic facts in history correct.

At this point, I am inclined to believe Zoroaster was a true prophet compared to the fake pretender Muhammed. In fact, your Quran does not even say the name of the God Zoroaster preached and does not even say his name Zarathustra. How could Mohammed miss out on that one? BTW, it is Ahura Mazda. You should know about him, your Quran borrows his holy scriptures, the Avestas.

And you accuse us of spoon feeding.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Following my previous post...

Are you of this opinion as well?

Many of our scholars have penned in their writings the dangers of mocking the Prophet (may peace & blessings be upon him); consider, from amongst these books, the book of Shaykhul Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah: ‘As-Saarim Al-Maslool ‘alaa Shaatim Ar-Rasool’ (Lit. The Drawn sword against the one who insults the Messenger).

Are you of the opinion that Muslims should take the sword against me because I mock your prophet? Are you of this opinion as well?

We, the Muslims, direct a call to the non-Muslims; that they should adorn their eyes and thoughts by finding out about the reality of the Prophet (may peace & blessings be upon him) from his characteristics and manners, by reading the books that contain the merits and characteristics of the Prophet that the people of Islaam have written in the books of the Sunnah and life accounts.

We get our opinions and criticisms from those very books AND the hadiths that expose him. You have been brainwashed by the very cult of Islam.And here is how..

Isolation: Deprives victim of all social support [necessary for the] ability to resist. Develops an intense concern with self. Makes victim dependent upon interrogator. Monopolization of Perception: Fixes attention upon immediate predicament; fosters introspection. Eliminates stimuli competing with those controlled by the captor. Frustrates all actions not consistent with compliance. Induced Debility & Exhaustion: Weakens mental and physical ability to resist. Threats: Cultivates anxiety and despair. Occasional Indulgences: Provides positive motivation for compliance. Demonstrating "Omnipotence": Suggests futility of resistance. Enforcing Trivial Demands: Develops habit of compliance. Degradation: Makes cost of resistance appear more damaging to self-esteem than capitulation. Reduces prisoner [abuse victim] to "animal level" concerns.

1:You have been isolated from all history except what imams teach you.And you have the inability to resist, otherwise your friends, neighbors and other Muslims say you are apostate.
2:You are so worried about going to hell or being killed for being apostate, you give yourself over to that fear. You can't think on your own, so the Quran tells you what to do.
3:You are a victim of Muslims who constantly make you repeat the shahada, you are dependent upon it to save your life.
4:They have monopolized your perception to make you think they are correct.
5:Your immediate predicament is if you fail to be a good Muslim you will go to hell.You then have to ask yourself constantly if you are a good Muslim, then must ask your imams to tell you if you are, or if the Quran tells you so. You pray five times a day to reassure yourself.
6:You are not allowed to ask questions...this comes directly from the Quran itself. You lose faith by asking questions.
7:If you fail in anything not decreed by the Quran, you will be killed. That is plain and simple and you know it.
8:You do not have the power to question their monopolization of you, your own resistance is weak and then when you give in, you have submitted to Allah and Mohammed. You have submitted through weakness, not through your own power to do so.
9:You are allowed to have muttah marriages, nikah marriages and any sexual thing you want, even sodomy if it advances Islam and brainwashing.
10:If you then submit through all of this, then maybe, just maybe inshalla, you might get to go to jennah.
11:You declare Islam and Muhammed as the all powerful motivation for your submission.
12:The trivial demands of praying, facing Mecca, not farting when going into the mosque.
13:Everyday you have to do this over, and over, and over, and over, and over....there is no end to doing it.
14:You have become nothing more than a slave to Islam.

Qur'an 5:101-102 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

They will be made plain? By whom? Every Christian and Jew and Buddhist and Hindu, every other religion that has ever been on this planet and ever will be knows they are allowed to ask questions about their religion....except Islam. Now you tell me, who is the brainwashed?

So come on, parrot more statements spewed out of your brainwashed imams. They don't even have the answers, that is why you have fatwas, because it has not been made plain.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Originally posted by WarminIndy
All through this discussion nether FlyersFan or I have dejected, disagreed or renounced anything the other said even though he may be Catholic and I am not. Neither of us has spoon fed each other. But you, on the other hand, have Imam opinions

My my my, aren't you in an ornery mood. A muslim cut you off on the road today or something?
I'm sorry, neither I, nor logical7 (I didn't look too closely to what he was saying) mentioned any "Imam opinions" at all in this thread. The only one who keeps bringing them up is YOU.
And speaking of opinions, it is quite hilarious that you claim the "Islam is full of opinions" (whatever that means), and use that as a point against it versus Christianity (and Catholicism) and Judaism. Both those religions are quite brimming with their own opinions.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Prophets are infallible? Or do you mean only Mohammed was infallible? And in whose opinion is that? The Bible makes no such assertion that prophets are infallible. What Islam is, it is a cult of personality surrounding the imagined person of Muhammed. Just to prove your imams are wrong. here is what they say..

I'm not quite sure why you KEEP bringing up the Bible as proof of the falseness of the Quran. As I've said before, according to Islam, the true message given to the Christians by Jesus (and the message given to the jews) was CORRUPTED, so such a comparison is meaningless. Islam believes ALL the prophets are sinless (not sure infallible was the correct term), not just Muhammad. The ridiculous stories in the Old Testament involving the Prophets being drunkards, incestuous lushes and adulterers, etc. are absolutely not accepted by Islam, for its betterment, I'd say.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
For 2,500 years it was called the Ka'aba of Zoroaster. Say to me "think because it's older it is right"...YES. Your Quran writers were ignorantly stupid they could not get the most basic facts in history correct.

For the amount of times you throw the term "ignorant" around, you seem to know remarkably very little. The name "Ka'aba of Zoroaster" was given to it probably around the 14th century, and it probably had nothing at all to do with Zoroaster at all:

KAʿBA-YE ZARDOŠT
“Kaʿba of Zoroaster,” an ancient building at Naqš-e Rostam near Persepolis. It probably acquired its name in the 14th century, when sites of ruins all over Persia were associated with personalities from the Qurʾān or the Šāh-nāma. The name does not indicate that it was a shrine of the Zoroastrians, and there are no reports about pilgrimages to it.

And sure, while the Quran makes no mention of Zoroaster (and it "rips off" from the Avestas about as much as Christianity or Judaism did), many muslims believe that he was one of the Prophets of the one true God, with the message he brought being corrupted over time (which makes sense, when you read how the religion and worship evolved over time).
Muslims already acknowledge that Islam is a continuation or "correction" (not that the original messages were wrong, just that they had been corrupted by the followers) of the message of the One True God, that has been sent to all the people of humanity throughout the ages by various Prophets. Nobody claimed it is anything NEW. That is the whole POINT of the original post in this thread. So saying that Islam uses many of the same stories isn't evidence of it being false at all. And saying that the stories aren't exactly the same as the ones you have in your Bible today isn't evidence of it being false either.

Someone has very obviously "spoon-fed" you a lot of hot air, and it seems you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Muslims already acknowledge that Islam is a continuation or "correction" of the message of the One True God, that has been sent to all the people of humanity throughout the ages by various Prophets, where the people kept corrupting the message. Nobody claimed it is anything NEW. That is the whole POINT of the original post in this thread. So saying that Islam uses many of the same stories isn't evidence of it being false at all. And saying that the stories aren't exactly the same as the ones you have in your Bible today isn't evidence of it being false either.

A continuation needs to validate itself from earlier sources, but should it be validated from sources it considers corrupt?

OK, here is your chance, prove to us allah is the same God. Can you do that outside Islamic sources? If Allah is the same, then he should have the same nature,character and words as he always said before. The problem with your allah, he does not share any of the same qualities. Why does allah flip-flop?

The Torah and Bible, which the Quran is unaware of because it cites the midrash and targums, God cannot swear by anything greater than Himself, so He swears by Himself. But allah swears by the sun and everything under the sun, including people who are running. How is he the same god?

Your allah gives revelations to Muhammed only at moments of convenience. One such convenience was when he wanted to have sex with his adopted son's wife. There was no revelation the night before, it came suddenly to him when he lusted after her. Did it come to Muhammed from allah, or Muhammed's own lust? Did Allah also tell Muhammed to beat Aisha in the chest for contradicting him? Does Allah really reveal those things?

From the moment Muhammed stepped in that cave and beat by a being who he did not know at the time and was deadly terrified of....his wife Kadijah, who was not there, did not witness the event, tells him that it was Jibreel. So who carries more revelatory information, Allah who DID NOT tell him it was Jibreel, but his wife?

Then why was Muhammed told to recite? Recite what? Quran? If Quran means recite, then recite what? Recite the prior books? Then if he was to continue the prior books, why not use the correct ones? And what other prophets said he was? Adam? Because he had a dream about it? That revelation came at a convenient time. That is all.

reply to post by babloyi

I'm not quite sure why you KEEP bringing up the Bible as proof of the falseness of the Quran. As I've said before, according to Islam, the true message given to the Christians by Jesus (and the message given to the jews) was CORRUPTED, so such a comparison is meaningless. Islam believes ALL the prophets are sinless (not sure infallible was the correct term), not just Muhammad. The ridiculous stories in the Old Testament involving the Prophets being drunkards, incestuous lushes and adulterers, etc. are absolutely not accepted by Islam, for its betterment, I'd say.

All prophets are sinless? Thats impossible, only one was ever sinless and that was Jesus. Google the prophet Eli, his sin was he ignored Yahweh's commands to get on his sons to repent for doing nefarious things, for which his sons were destroyed during a battle with the philistines as penalty 1 Samuel 3-4 and he fell and broke his neck after hearing the Ark had been captured.

Not only that but:

Jeremiah 23:11-14

11 “For both prophet and priest are profane;
Yes, in My house I have found their wickedness,” says the Lord.
12 “Therefore their way shall be to them
Like slippery ways;
In the darkness they shall be driven on
And fall in them;
For I will bring disaster on them,
The year of their punishment,” says the Lord.
13 “And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria:
They prophesied by Baal
And caused My people Israel to err.
14 Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem:
They commit adultery and walk in lies;
They also strengthen the hands of evildoers,
So that no one turns back from his wickedness.
All of them are like Sodom to Me,
And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.

Some prophets prophecy by Ba'al, Jezebel was one such person, calling herself a prophetess.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Originally posted by WarminIndy
OK, here is your chance, prove to us allah is the same God. Can you do that outside Islamic sources? If Allah is the same, then he should have the same nature,character and words as he always said before. The problem with your allah, he does not share any of the same qualities.

He doesn't? Says who?
Using your own scriptures,
God is Self-Sufficient (Acts 17:25). God is self-sufficient (Quran 112:2).
God is Gracious (throughout the bible). God is gracious (the start of almost every surah in the Quran).
God is Holy (Isaiah 6:3). God is Holy (Quran 59:23 and 62:1).
God is Everlasting (Isaiah 40:28). God is Everlasting (Quran 55:27).
God is Love (1 John 4:16). God is Love (Quran 11:90 and 85:14).
God is All-Powerful (Revelation 19:6). God is All-Powerful (Quran 6:65, 36:81, 46:33 and 75:40).
God is All-Knowing (Romans 16:27). God is All-Knowing (Quran 2:158, 3:92, 4:35, 24:41 and 33:40).
God is All-Present (Psalm 139:8). God is All-Present (Quran 2:268, 3:73 and 5:54).

Most importantly, GOD IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO GOD BUT HIM (Deut. 6:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4, Isaiah 45:5, Corinthians 8:6).

God never changed. People just twisted the words to suit their own ends.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
God cannot swear by anything greater than Himself, so He swears by Himself. But allah swears by the sun and everything under the sun, including people who are running. How is he the same god?

Sorry, I must have missed it when that law of the universe was declared. You were there? If you are talking about the passage in Matthew 5, you'll notice those are instructions to people, not God, and in fact, say you shouldn't swear at all (although it is more about taking oaths, which isn't really what is going on here).

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Then why was Muhammed told to recite? Recite what? Quran? If Quran means recite, then recite what? Recite the prior books?

Recite the verses that were then told. Being:
Recite in the name of thy Lord Who hath created - Created man from a clot!
Recite: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
He who taught man (use of) the pen. Taught man that which he knew not.


I'm glad at least you acknowledged your previous error regarding the Ka'aba-e-Zartosht. It isn't like you conveniently and totally ignored my correction and moved on to another point!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I think you missed the "According to Islam..." in my post, and forgot to add the "According to Christianity..." in your post.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

God never changed. People just twisted the words to suit their own ends.

Exactly what Mohammed did. Thank you for that statement. It is what we have charged all along and now you agree.

Recite the verses that were then told. Being:
Recite in the name of thy Lord Who hath created - Created man from a clot!
Recite: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
He who taught man (use of) the pen. Taught man that which he knew not.

Allah also swears by the ink and pen. Imagine that.
So the question remains...what was Mohammed supposed to recite? And Mohammed was not illiterate because the Quran and Hadiths give plenty of evidence that he could indeed write. But the word was actually unlearned. What was he unlearned about? The Bible and Torah, that is what he did not know. And if you recall, the use of the pen came later. Scribes originally wrote with a stylus. So did allah teach the ancient Japanese Shinto the use of the pen?

I mean, come on, for allah to do this, then the Shinto are muslim now.
History of Shinto

It must be that the Chinese were Muslim because they learned writing too. And the Hindus must be Muslim too because they wrote in Sanskrit.

And the 99 attributes of allah, those very names can be found on every god in the ancient world. Let's play scavenger hunt and find ancient gods attributes and paste them here. I think I will do that in my next post. This is going to be fun, because it just shows that Muhammed borrowed titles and attributes for allah. Which, by the way, was still the moon god no matter how you try to get around it. So let me ask this....if allah taught man the use of the pen, then why wait all that time until Muhammed was born? You mean Arabic writing was not known until after Muhammed? That is what we have said all along.

What have you proven? You have proven that people twist god, which is exactly what Muhammed did.

reply to post by babloyi

I think you missed the "According to Islam..." in my post, and forgot to add the "According to Christianity..." in your post.

But...but...the Quran is corrupted. The red heifer that was actually yellow, Allah not having a companion but somehow Muhammad was his companion, the 3 crones whose intercession is to be hoped for...Al'Uzzah, Al' Lat and Menat the daughters of Hu'bal... er i mean Allah.

Who is the Father of Lies?

reply to post by WarminIndy

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Allah also swears by the ink and pen. Imagine that.

Your point?

Originally posted by WarminIndy
So the question remains...what was Mohammed supposed to recite?

The question doesn't remain at all. I'm not sure you're paying attention. I just quoted you exactly what he was supposed to recite.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
And Mohammed was not illiterate because the Quran and Hadiths give plenty of evidence that he could indeed write. But the word was actually unlearned.

The Quran and Hadith give no evidence at all of any such thing. If they give any evidence at all, it is that he could not write. Still, there are some who believe he could, or that he was gifted this skill by God, and was never taught conventionally. It is, however an accepted fact that he never wrote. Anyhow, whatever the case may be, you're still wrong (surprise surprise). "Ummi", the word used here, means "unlettered" or "illiterate", or it could (if you are of the group that doesn't want the Prophet to have been illiterate) mean "maternal" (because supposedly Mecca, where he was from, was the "mother town").

Originally posted by WarminIndy
What was he unlearned about? The Bible and Torah, that is what he did not know. And if you recall, the use of the pen came later. Scribes originally wrote with a stylus. So did allah teach the ancient Japanese Shinto the use of the pen?

Good gracious....you're almost giving me a headache with how absurd and inaccurate your arguments are. The reed pen has been in use in the middle east (Egypt, Judea, etc.) recordably since the 4th century BC. Reed pens are probably what the New Testament was originally written with. And the quill pen has been used since at least 100BC (some of the Dead Sea Scrolls) were written with a quill pen.
Anyhow, the word used to refer to "pen" in the Quran is "qalam". It is a type of reed pen that is still in use today, mostly now just for calligraphy. So nobody had to go to Japan or "steal from the Shinto" to use a pen.
Now, despite having explained all that to you, and how your statement was absurdly wrong, 10 out of 10 you'll totally ignore it, and move on to another absurd point.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
And the 99 attributes of allah, those very names can be found on every god in the ancient world.

Yes? So? That is what you asked for.
There is only one true God. the fact that all these cultures in ancient times had a One True God (or at least a top God in a pantheon which they probably inserted when they corrupted the original message) who shared all these attributes only proves the point.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Which, by the way, was still the moon god no matter how you try to get around it.

Snorrrrreeeeeeeeeee.............

Originally posted by WarminIndy
So let me ask this....if allah taught man the use of the pen, then why wait all that time until Muhammed was born? You mean Arabic writing was not known until after Muhammed? That is what we have said all along.

Do you have any reading comprehension at all? Do you know how to read? "God taught man how to read" suddenly warps in your brain to "I am at this very moment giving you the knowledge of how to read and write, which I had not given before, that is the meaning of this statement"? Go back and check the verse I quoted again.

You really seem to be reaching now. Are you just randomly throwing out arguments for the sake of arguments?


reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
The red heifer that was actually yellow,

Yes? How do you know? Does your answer begin with "According to Christianity..."?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Allah not having a companion but somehow Muhammad was his companion

How was Muhammad his companion? What are you on about?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Hu'bal... er i mean Allah.

This in the Quran somewhere? Or even in some scholarly source outside the Quran?
What are you on about? Are you also now just throwing out random words and verses in hopes that something will stick? You should take the advice in my signature.