Jesus was a "Muslim"

Okay ... lets try this again babloyi ....

Originally posted by babloyi

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The God of the bible is a Trinity God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. There is NO WAY that Muslims believe that Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore, the God of the bible is NOT the god of the Qu'ran.

Hahaha....if that were true, there seem to be a huuuuge number of christians who are doing it wrong. I suppose only you are correct?

Catholics, Episcopalians, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Lutherans, Methodists, and the Baptists (according to the Southern Baptist Convention) are make up the bulk of Christianity. That means most Christians believe in a Trinity God ... and that Jesus is God incarnate. The number of Jews is irrelevant. The number of Christian non-believers in a Trinity is very small compared with the vast majority who believe in a Trinity God.

Christians believe Jesus is God incarnate. And there is nothing in the Christian bible to suggest that Jesus, being God incarnate, was a Muslim. That religion wouldn't be invented by Muhammad until hundreds of years later. Jesus didn't say 'allah'. Jesus didn't preach the laws that Muhammad preached. Jesus started His own church and put Peter in charge. (Matthew 16:18) .. so why would He start his own church if Islam was already there? He wouldn't have.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Yes, lets try this again.

You originally claimed that The God of the Bible was the a "Trinity God", as your major point why "The god of the Quran" wasn't the same as the "God of the Bible".

I pointed out the large number of christian denominations that don't in any way at all agree with the trinity. They certainly aren't a small number. They may not be the majority, but again, I never claimed they were (and that is pretty irrelevant...since when did "There are more people who believe X, therefore X is correct", become canon?). They are christian, they follow the Bible and "The God of the Bible", but according to you, who somehow became Director of Religious Affairs for All Christians Everywhere (DRACE for short), they don't count.

Then you wanted me to admit I was wrong somehow....


So no, "Christians" DON'T believe that Jesus was God Incarnate, and the Bible is, at the very least, ambiguous enough on this point that there are many denominations of these "Christians" that don't believe it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
OT is an ancient historical account.

Not really. It's full of myth and legend. Much of it taken from other cultures and reworked.

would OT be blamed as been plagiarized?

MUCH of it was plagiarized. The Adam and Eve story was. Ditto Noahs Ark. And as for the Psalms supposedly writen by David .. many were from Egypt and were writen to worship their Sun God. The Summerian stories were taken and reworked. All plagiarized.

Not all that is mentioned in OT has been proved true by archeology or other sciences. But you still take everything as fact.

I do NOT take everything as fact. IMHO most of the Old Testament is totally unreliable.
You shouldn't assume things like that.

While you ignore the established facts mentioned in Quran

Because there are very few, if any, 'established facts'.
There are more errors and contradictions then 'established facts' in the Qu'ran.

let me tell you a prophecy in Quran

There were ZILLIONS of mummy scattered all over the place. I could make a 'prophecy' as well. I could say that there will be a sign from God ... that there will be an earthquake soon that will cause a tidal wave and this is a sign from God .. and God told me so.

EVENTUALLY there will be an earthquake and tidal wave somewhere. That doesn't mean that God told me about it.

If you admit OT is unreliable and full of myths and errors. How you take any part of it as true?? Especially if OT is the only source saying it?
.
And you are a little confused between a prophecy and what you said. Do u think archeologists were digging around in 7th century?? Or egyptiology was taught in arabia? And my statement was that if that finding is used to advertise the OT then would it be acknowledged that Quran said it more precisely.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Admit you were wrong when you said this -

Originally posted by babloyi
Hahaha....if that were true, there seem to be a huuuuge number of christians who are doing it wrong. I suppose only you are correct?

Hahahahahaha....admit I was wrong? You know, despite the awesomely large number of times I've caught out people who were either innocently mistaken, or straight out lying about Islam, I've never gotten an admission of wrongness. And I caught these people straight out, with no possibility of any other way. The most I get is a moving forward of the goalposts, or just ignoring my previous points.
How am I wrong in what I said? A huge number of christians do not believe in the trinity. This is not false.
Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, many Quaker groups, Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Universalist Christians, the United Church of God, Dawn Bible Students, Iglesia ni Cristo (the non-catholic "Church of Christ" in the Philippines), Members Church of God International (also in the Philippines), The Light of the World Church in Mexico, Living Church of God, Friends of Man Church, Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ etc. And these are just some of the official organisations, not a count of the individuals who do not believe in the trinity. And it isn't even a complete count of the organisations either..just as many as I could find in this short time.
Not all of these groups are unitarian, and some of them hold pretty out-there and weird beliefs, but all of them are non-trinitarian or even anti-trinitarian. In fact, a great many of the denominations that came out of the Restorationism movement are non-trinitarian.

You are absolutely correct that the Christian Trinity is not the God of Islam, but then again, the OP never made this claim. The claim made in the OP was that Jesus Christ (not any trinitarian belief set that arose after his departure from earth) was a muslim, in the sense that he submitted to the will of God, exactly like the Quran instructs.

edit on 8-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

And this is where you get caught. The shahada does not say "submit to allah"...it says "Say Allah is one and Mohammed is his prophet".

La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Allah

I want to know, if you can show us, where the Bible has Jesus saying the shahada. It is your tawheed, which the word shahada is not found in the quran, except in one place and it means a legal testimony a woman must have. Show us, if you can, where Jesus said the shahada in the Bible.

Originally posted by logical7
If you admit OT is unreliable and full of myths and errors. How you take any part of it as true??

I do not take any part of it as absolutely true. And the 'historical' parts, like with Moses, were written from the Jewish perspective so it's biased in their favor. Example - Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark = taken from Summerian legends. Example on the 'historical' aspect ... the Jews left Egypt to go to the 'promised land'. They were supposedly slaves and mistreated. But the OT has them building a pagan god out of gold. So where'd they get the gold? Either they weren't slaves and it was their gold OR they stole all that gold when they left egypt en masse. That would explain why Pharoahs chariots chased them for miles and miles .. if they had all that stolen gold then Pharoah would have wanted it back and the theives punished. Either way, that's now how the bible presents it. So .. to answer your question .. I don't take any part of it as true.

As for the prophecy thing ... start over. Now my head is all turned around.
Really. Try again ... I'll see if I can follow you.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7

.
And you are a little confused between a prophecy and what you said. Do u think archeologists were digging around in 7th century?? Or egyptiology was taught in arabia? And my statement was that if that finding is used to advertise the OT then would it be acknowledged that Quran said it more precisely.

Can you prove that statement that the Quran said it more precisely? You have not been able to do that all along. What you have only managed to do was show us the Quran says it more incorrectly. And on top of that, you can't even show us any Quran pre-Uthman.

Show me anything pre-Uthman. Uthman burned other Quranic verses. But show us, please? Otherwise, we have to believe that Uthman is solely responsible for your Quran. And if Uthman is solely responsible for the Quran, then how do you know it is correct? Because Uthman told you it was correct?

How was allah capable of preserving the Quran by allowing Uthman to burn verses? And if it is a great sin to desecrate the Quran, why was Uthman allowed to get by with it?

Isn't this the reason for the division of Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims? You can't even agree with each other who is Muslim and then tell us about our different churches. Uthman played a game and you are forced to accept it.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Where Jesus says 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."

Do you know what the word "Muslim" means? What has that got to do with the legalistic understanding of "SHOW WHERE HE SAID THE SHAHADA! SHOW SHOW SHOW!"?

And no, the sunni-shia divide has nothing at all to do with Uthman and the Quran.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Where Jesus says 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."

Do you know what the word "Muslim" means? What has that got to do with the legalistic understanding of "SHOW WHERE HE SAID THE SHAHADA! SHOW SHOW SHOW!"?

And no, the sunni-shia divide has nothing at all to do with Uthman and the Quran.

edit on 8-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

Where does Jesus say "And Mohammed is Rasool". Can you show that? The Shema is not a testimony of allah, it is Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad, Baruch haba shem k'vod malchuto laolam vaed".

Those words Adonai Eloheinu are plurals. Perhaps you should learn Hebrew. Plural plural plural echad (one). Show us where Jesus said "Rasool Mohammed". You did not show the shahada, you showed the Shema.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Why would Muhammad be mentioned? He wasn't alive at that time. Although if you like, I can bring your attention to the "Paraclete" verse. You'd probably come up with an excuse for that, though.

Did Jesus ever say anywhere in the Bible "Paul is one of my apostles, listen to him!"?
You still seem to follow Paul's instructions despite that....

And there really isn't any need to run your "it's plural! It's plural!" excuses by me. It seems more something to comfort and convince yourself rather than me. Although if you like, you could try 1 Corinthians 8:6, where Paul says there is one God, the Father, and one Jesus Christ. I'm sure you'll come up with a suitable excuse for that too...

It's interesting how christians so readily handwave and brush aside or excuse or try to "explain" something contrary in their own scripture, yet are so eager to take other scriptures at a totally misunderstood face value...

Originally posted by babloyi
You originally claimed that The God of the Bible was the a "Trinity God", as your major point why "The god of the Quran" wasn't the same as the "God of the Bible".

Yes.

I pointed out the large number of christian denominations that don't in any way at all agree with the trinity. They certainly aren't a small number.

But the POPULATION of them is very very small.

but according to you, who somehow became Director of Religious Affairs for All Christians Everywhere (DRACE for short), they don't count.

I said that the VAST MAJORITY of Christians believe in a Trinity God. And that's true. Those others are a small number who are in disagreement with the vast majority of Christians. Therefore ... in general Christianity has a Trinity God.

So no, "Christians" DON'T believe that Jesus was God Incarnate,

So yes, Christians do. Almost all of them.

and the Bible is, at the very least, ambiguous enough ...

hey .. the bible has lots of contradictions and myths and errors ... LOTS.
But the fact is that at least 3/4 of Christians believe in a Trinity God.

2 Billion Christians on Planet Earth

Catholic - 1 Billion ... believe in the Trinity.
Orthodox - 300 million ... believe in the Trinity (Greek, Eastern, Russian)
Anglicans - 85 million ... believe in the Trinity
Lutherans - 79 million ... believe in the Trinity
Baptists - 46 million ... believe in the Trinity
Methodists - 38 million .. believe in the Trinity
Episcopal - 2.3 million ... believe in the Trinity.
Probably others, but these are the big ones.

Compare to your list who do not.
Mormons ... not recognized by Main Christian groups as Christian .. 14 million
Jehovah's Witnesses ... not recognized by Main Christian groups as Christian ... don't have number
Christian Scientists ... are NOT Christian .. 7 million
Quaker groups ... 359,000
Christadelphians ... 60,000
Oneness Pentecostals - claim 1 million (unverified)
Unitarian Universalist Christians .. 271,000
the United Church of God, ... couldn't find a number
Dawn Bible Students, ... new group with lots of breakoff groups (can't agree) .. couldn't get a number
Iglesia ni Cristo (the non-catholic "Church of Christ" in the Philippines) .. number unavailable
Members Church of God International (also in the Philippines),.. number unavailable
The Light of the World Church in Mexico - 5 million
Living Church of God, - claim 150,000 but this is a cult and not sure if it's 'christian'
Friends of Man Church, ... 9,700 at peak, but much less now
Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ - number unavailable, but they may not be 'christian'. They are tied to Nation of Islam and are run like a black KKK group. (from what I've read).

Do you see the difference in population numbers.
AT LEAST 3/4 of Christians believe in a Trinity god.
Probably more than that. It's a main stream belief in Christianity.
It's safe to say that most Christians believe in the Trinity.
That's what I said before .. MOST.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Where Jesus says 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."

Do you know what the word "Muslim" means? What has that got to do with the legalistic understanding of "SHOW WHERE HE SAID THE SHAHADA! SHOW SHOW SHOW!"?

And no, the sunni-shia divide has nothing at all to do with Uthman and the Quran.

edit on 8-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

And then, can you explain this...?
فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ
So blessed is Allaah, the best of creators.
[Soorah Al-Muminoon, 23:14]

The best of creators? If he was the only creator then there would not be any need to recognize others. So there were other creators besides allah?

Surah 23:14 Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.

The Bible says this "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"...notice here that it does not say "In the beginning the best of creators created the heaven and the earth". That would imply other creators, in basic English.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Originally posted by FlyersFan
But the POPULATION of them is very very small.

No, the population of them is quite significant, as shown by my comparison to the total number of jews in the world. Is the belief system of the jews irrelevant because the POPULATION of them is very very small (compared to other people)?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I said that the VAST MAJORITY of Christians believe in a Trinity God. And that's true.

So according to you, ¾ is a VAST MAJORITY (necessitating capitalisation, in fact), while ¼ is so minute, it doesn't even need to be counted. Interesting.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Those others are a small number who are in disagreement with the vast majority of Christians. Therefore ... in general Christianity has a Trinity God.

So no, "Christians" DON'T believe that Jesus was God Incarnate,

So yes, Christians do. Almost all of them.
...
But the fact is that at least 3/4 of Christians believe in a Trinity God.
...
That's what I said before .. MOST.

Remember when I talked about people "moving back the goalposts"? This is what I was referring to. So yeah, no, you didn't say that before. What you said before was "YOU ARE WRONG, YOU SHOULD ADMIT YOUR WRONGNESS, WRONG PERSON!"
And no, you said definitively "Christians" and "God of the Bible" and so on, with no qualifiers whatsoever, and were constantly giving opinions like you were the sole deliverer of what counts for Christianity, when in fact, even within this thread, a lot of your opinions deviate significantly from "mainstream christianity", as you call it.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Do you know what a creator is? Dan Harmon created a tv show that I enjoy, called Community (although he's not in charge of it anymore). Bell Labs created the C programming language (I'm not too fond of that, but thankfully there are many better alternatives out there).
Guess who the Quran says the best creator is? The ULTIMATE Creator?

Alrighty .... I went and read up some more ...

Seems Islam sites online try to claim all the prophets from all the centuries before Muhammed invented Islam. They say that people practiced Islam back before Muhammed invented it. That it's a way of life.

This is like the Catholic Church trying to claim Melchizedek from the old testament. The Catholic Church says their priests are 'in the line (order) of Melchizedek.

Both claims are just back engineering. They are trying to build their own religion up by claiming the 'biggies' from religious history when in fact the prophets from before Muhammed had nothing to do with Islam and Melchizedek isn't even close to being Catholic.

The fact is that Islam originated with Muhammed and started in Mecca and Medina back in the 600s. The fact is that Melchizedek wasn't a Catholic priest and the Catholic Church didn't start until hundreds (thousands) of years later. All this back engineering and claiming figures through history just doesn't work. And if Jesus was Muslim he wouldn't have started His own church. That's the long and short of it.

Originally posted by babloyi
the population of them is quite significant, as shown by my comparison to the total number of jews in the world.

What has the population of the jews got to do with Christian statistics?? You are trying to compare apples and oranges. Why do you keep bringing Jews into a conversation about which Christians believe in the Trinity?

So according to you, ¾ is a VAST MAJORITY (necessitating capitalisation, in fact), while ¼ is so minute, it doesn't even need to be counted.

I said AT LEAST 3/4. And yes, with AT LEAST 3/4 of Christians believing in a Trinity God, it is safe to say that MOST believe in a Trinity.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
and were constantly giving opinions like you were the sole deliverer of what counts for Christianity,

oh blah blah blah I'm not giving 'my opinions'. I'm stating facts. I'm giving statistical numbers. But I find it comical that each posting here you seem to have to try to nail me with some kind of off hand remark. You really should try to dump the attitude and just read the facts as presented. You won't get so flustered.

when in fact, even within this thread, a lot of your opinions deviate significantly from "mainstream christianity", as you call it.

The statistics I gave are not 'opinions' .. they are just factual statistics.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Why would Muhammad be mentioned? He wasn't alive at that time. Although if you like, I can bring your attention to the "Paraclete" verse. You'd probably come up with an excuse for that, though.

Did Jesus ever say anywhere in the Bible "Paul is one of my apostles, listen to him!"?
You still seem to follow Paul's instructions despite that....

And there really isn't any need to run your "it's plural! It's plural!" excuses by me. It seems more something to comfort and convince yourself rather than me. Although if you like, you could try 1 Corinthians 8:6, where Paul says there is one God, the Father, and one Jesus Christ. I'm sure you'll come up with a suitable excuse for that too...

It's interesting how christians so readily handwave and brush aside or excuse or try to "explain" something contrary in their own scripture, yet are so eager to take other scriptures at a totally misunderstood face value...

edit on 8-10-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

Ah yes, the cherry picking of Paul. Do you forget where Paul also says "this one is three and this three is one"?
Good for you for saying Mohammed was not alive so no need to mention his name. But does not EVERY Muslim have to say the shahada and that IS the confession of your faith as a Muslim?

I seem to be getting to you because you are scrambling now to post Bible verses, so while you are at it, tell us now that Mohammed is in the Bible. And the paraclete, I suggest you think a moment before you go there. Do you really believe Mohammed is the Holy Ghost?

Paraclete comes from the Koine Greek word παράκλητος (paráklētos, that can signify "one who consoles or comforts, one who encourages or uplifts; hence refreshes, and/or one who intercedes on our behalf as an advocate in court"

Can Mohammed intercede for you? Is Mohammed an advocate for you before allah? Is Mohammed going to testify on your behalf? No, wait, the black rock of the kaaba does that.

There are various, slightly different, versions of the following story regarding the significance and origin of the Kaaba Black Stone. All are similar. When Adam was banished from Paradise or The Garden of Eden, he was filled with sin. The Black Stone was given to Adam to erase him of this sin and give him entrance into heaven. It is said to be from Heaven. At the time it belonged to Adam, it was white. Now, it is black because it has absorbed so much sin.

Is the black stone able to take your sins away? The Quran denies the blood of Jesus that takes away the sins of the world, but has a black stone that does.

In recent years, however, literalist views of the Black Stone have emerged. A small minority accepts as literally true an allegorical hadith which asserts that "the Stone will appear on the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah) with eyes to see and a tongue to speak, and give evidence in favor of all who kissed it in true devotion, but speak out against whoever indulged in gossip or profane conversations during his circumambulation of the Kaaba"

Is that true? Will the black rock be able to speak about who kissed it? If the rock is just a rock, then it holds no special power, therefore you should not have to circumambulate it and it means nothing. Does the black rock mean nothing?

Originally posted by babloyi
Remember when I talked about people "moving back the goalposts"?

that is what some islamics are trying to do by claiming Jesus was muslim. Back engineering their religion. Claiming the 'biggies' through history to try to give their own religion credibility and substance. It simply doesn't work.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Originally posted by FlyersFan
What has the population of the jews got to do with Christian statistics?? You are trying to compare apples and oranges. Why do you keep bringing Jews into a conversation about which Christians believe in the Trinity?

It is a comparison to show the absurdity of your line of thought. "X believes in Y, even though a percentage of X doesn't believe in Y, because that percentage of X is insignificant". There are about 14 million jews around today. By your logic, they don't exist, or they don't matter, because their percentage is a miniscule miniscule percentage of (Abrahamic Religions)(Religions in general)(People of the world). If you say "Christians believe in X" (with no qualifiers, with no "most" or "majority"), and I point that a large number of christians do not, the fact that they only make up 25% of christians in total at most still doesn't make your statement true.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
oh blah blah blah I'm not giving 'my opinions'. I'm stating facts. I'm giving statistical numbers.

"Christians believe Jesus Christ is God Incarnate" is a statistical number? Because it certainly isn't a fact (as I've shown). "The God of the Bible is a "Trinity God" is a statistical number? Because it certainly isn't a fact (as many of the christian denominations I mentioned have shown).

These are opinions. Not facts, and not statistics...
And I'm not sure you realise what "Moving the Goalposts" means. Since "Muslim" means "One who adheres to Islam" and "Islam" (in the religious context) means "Submission to the will of God", there was no goalpost moved on this end of the field. It is YOU who where you originally said definitively and without any qualifiers "Christians believe", now add "most" to that.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Originally posted by WarminIndy
But does not EVERY Muslim have to say the shahada

No, they don't. They have to believe it, and saying it out loud (with a witness) is nice as it makes it official.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
I seem to be getting to you because you are scrambling now to post Bible verses, so while you are at it, tell us now that Mohammed is in the Bible. And the paraclete, I suggest you think a moment before you go there. Do you really believe Mohammed is the Holy Ghost?

Look, I don't quite see why you're trying to post this at ME. I don't need the Bible to validate my faith- pointing out how the Quran is wrong because it doesn't match exactly the stories in the Bible is irrelevant to me, because the Bible you have today is irrelevant and corrupted to me, except in where it agrees with what I already believe.
Now if YOU need the Bible to validate your faith, and I can point out instances where your ideology and theology are at odds with (or ambiguously picked up from) the Bible, explaining it to me isn't relevant. I mean, if someone tried hard enough, they could convince themselves that up is down and the Queen is the President of the USA. Doesn't matter to me. If I point out that Paul says something in one verse, and you point out where he says something contrary in another verse, it isn't a point in your favour. It just shows the ambiguity of the Bible.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Can Mohammed intercede for you? Is Mohammed an advocate for you before allah? Is Mohammed going to testify on your behalf? No, wait, the black rock of the kaaba does that.

The Holy Ghost is going to intercede for you? This is some new stuff. You should tell your Church of this interesting new discovery you made! And the Black rock is going to intercede on my behalf! Wow, you're coming up with new stuff in several religions at once. Bravo!

PS: The Quran makes no mention of the Black Stone, and nobody (except you) said anything about it taking anyones' sins away.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by babloyi
Remember when I talked about people "moving back the goalposts"?

that is what some islamics are trying to do by claiming Jesus was muslim. Back engineering their religion. Claiming the 'biggies' through history to try to give their own religion credibility and substance. It simply doesn't work.

Exactly.
Then every Muslim should be Catholic since the Quran obviously confirms it. Every Muslim should be Jewish if the Quran confirms it. NOOOO, what they do is this..since they won't be Jewish or Catholic, they attempt to say Jews and Christians are Muslim.

What is funny is that somewhere along the middle of the Quran, Mohammed seems to flip-flop on his position about the Christians and Jews. First the Quran says they are not even supposed to disagree with us, they are suppose to ask us anything about the Book and that we are right. But then.....Mohammed changes his mind, decides we are wrong and then says to kill us. Why? Apparently someone broke a treaty with Mohammed.

We were OK before Mohammed was kicked out of Mecca then he had to raise an army, raid and plunder caravans until he was rich enough to go back to Mecca and then kill Christians and Jews. And in order to feed his wives, he had to pawn his armor and sword for money....to a Jewish pawnbroker.

I wonder if he ever got them back? Do you suppose the original pawn ticket is still out there somewhere?

Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 34 :: Hadith 283

Narrated Qatada:

Anas went to the Prophet with barley bread having some dissolved fat on it. The Prophet had mortgaged his armor to a Jew in Medina and took from him some barley for his family. Anas heard him saying, "The household of Muhammad did not possess even a single Sa of wheat or food grains for the evening meal, although he has nine wives to look after." (See Hadith No. 685)

Can you imagine this, someone has the pawn ticket of Mohamed and goes to Pawn Stars...I wonder what that would be worth. Apparently for Mohammed, it was only worth a few pounds of barley. No wonder he was cranky, he was hungry all the time.

reply to post by babloyi


See Bablyoi, this is where you seem to be committing taqqiyah. Everyone in the world knows about Hajj being a part of the Five Pillars of Faith in Islam, with shahada being the first. Everyone knows about the black stone and what it means.

This rope-a-dope isn't working. Do I need to give you a refresher course in your Five Pillars of Faith?

The Five Pillars of Faith Once a Muslim, each member must carry out five essential duties, called The Five Pillars of Faith. They are listed below:1: A Muslim must acknowledge that "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet" 2: A Muslim must pray five times daily facing Mecca: at dawn, at noon, in the midafternoon, at dusk, and after dark. 3: Each Muslim must pay a zagat to the government. 4:A Muslim must fast for the month of Ramadan. During the fasting month, one must refrain from eating, drinking, smoking, and sexual intercourse from dawn until sunset. 5:A Muslim must make a pilgrimage to Mecca. Every adult Muslim who is physically and financially able to do so must make this pilgrimage at least once in his or her lifetime.

Come on, rope-a-dope some more, when you confess that to be a Muslim you must confess Allah and Mohammed. I asked you to show me where Jesus acknowledged that, you said "paraclete" then I gave you the definition and then showed you what happens during hajj.

Either the Five Pillars of faith resting on the sole statement of Allah and Mohammed is what you believe, or it is something no Muslim would ever do. Since the OP said Jesus was a Muslim, then Jesus must believe in the Five Pillars of Islam and perform them. I asked you to show the shahada, which is number one, and you said the Shema. They are not even comparable.

The adnan, or call to prayer.

God is Great. God is Great. God is Great. God is Great. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except God. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except God. I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God. I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God. Come to prayer! Come to prayer! Come to success! Come to success! God is Great! God is Great! There is none worthy of worship except God.

Who called Jesus to prayer with this?

reply to post by shuar911


This is the most rediculous statement I have ever heard!

The person who wrote the paper and the people who "found nothing wrong with it" are probably the same people who are all for a one world religion.

Furthermore, Jesus did not submit or surrender to anything or anyone. Jesus did the will of His Heavenly Father and since He and the Father are One, He was doing His own will. To imply otherwise denies the diety of Jesus and denying the diety of Jesus would render faith in Him void. I choose to believe the testamony of His disciples who bore witness to his death, burial,resurrection and ascent into heaven.

To declare Jesus a muslim is a slap in the face to all believing Christians.