Jesus was a "Muslim"

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by nenothtu

 

i agree about the law.
Man is incapable of making law, if someone desires that, its like being a pharoh. And is islamically associating partners with God.
Man can only use the intelligence to derive a ruling based on principles given by God. But ya the scholars are needed as not everyone is learned enough just as a doctor is need

No, we cannot make law. We can only follow it to the best of our ability, as we understand it. I think that the very act of relying on scholars, rather than studying it for yourself, would be a blockage between the individual and God. it's still placing an intermediary there, rather than seeking out God ourselves. That's just me, of course. I also understand that there are people with other concerns in life, who would rather pursue their own goals, and leave the studying to the scholars, relying on their judgement. Those people will have to take that up with God as to the correctness of their actions in due course, and it's not for me to say whether that was the right thing for them or the wrong one. That's between them and God.

what source you use to get the law?

What source do you use to get the laws of physics, which you are bound to obey. The laws of physics are complete and the laws of morality is also complete. Cause and Effect is a law in both the natural and spiritual. The law of reciprocity works, whether we realize it or not, or accept it or not.

Mohammed tried to circumvent those laws, but in the end, he was killed in the same manner he said allah would kill him if he lied. Well. Mohammed lied, and allah cut his aorta....wouldn't you think the law of reciprocity was in full effect in his case?

laws of physics are derived from observation.
and you cannot break laws of physics, but break bones trying..
.
morality is subjective.
.
and ya cause effect is true,
but in case of spirituality. effect of wrong morals, would not be visible till judgement day.
.
and about prophet Muhammad(pbuh) that cutting of aorta thing, i can tell you, someone went to great lengths to bring out that sick point.
let me give an examlpe,
"sinners will burn"
now i say "oh i have acidity, feels as if i am burning"
your interpretation?? i am a sinner.(p.s-i am not claiming to be not)


the term "cutting of life artery/aorta"
was a saying to symbolise "end life/kill"
in Quran. Allah said, if the prophet said something unauthorised Allah would sieze him and kill him. period.
when he was dying,he said that he feels he is dying.
it would take a real pervert to connect these.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
So trinity is popular opinion and not a scholistic fact(its actually forgery

The early Christians ... the fathers of Christianity .. from a time before the bible was even around .. believed in the Holy Trinity. They wrote about it. You might want to read up ... Writings here

You deny that Jesus was Muslim by saying Islam wasn't even created then and then say the early Christians were around before the bible was even around, do you mean the pagans that had similar beliefs and practices as Christians? or are you saying Christianity was around centuries before Christ?

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by nenothtu

 

and about prophet Muhammad(pbuh) that cutting of aorta thing, i can tell you, someone went to great lengths to bring out that sick point.

the term "cutting of life artery/aorta"
was a saying to symbolise "end life/kill"
in Quran. Allah said, if the prophet said something unauthorised Allah would sieze him and kill him. period.
when he was dying,he said that he feels he is dying.
it would take a real pervert to connect these.

So for you, morality is subjectiv. So therefore, your assumption would be morality was subjective for Mohammed. Ah yes, the old "you're a kafir, mentally ill, so anything you say about Mohammed is because you are sick". I will agree, I am a kafir because I do not believe in allah or Mohammed was his prophet.

Sahih International Surah 69:44-48 And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings,We would have seized him by the right hand;Then We would have cut from him the aorta.And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him.And indeed, the Qur'an is a reminder for the righteous.

Hmm, so Mohammed is saying that allah would kill him if he made any falsehoods about allah. Those are the words of Mohammed, correct?

Bukhari Hadith 5.713: Narrated Ibn Abbas: 'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to let Ibn Abbas sit beside him, so 'AbdurRahman bin 'Auf said to 'Umar, "We have sons similar to him." 'Umar replied, "(I respect him) because of his status that you know." 'Umar then asked Ibn 'Abbas about the meaning of this Holy Verse:-- "When comes the help of Allah and the conquest of Mecca . . ." (110.1) Ibn 'Abbas replied, "That indicated the death of Allah's Apostle which Allah informed him of." 'Umar said, "I do not understand of it except what you understand." Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."

Yes, I would agree that cutting the aorta is simply a way of saying death. But the point is, you reap what you sow.

Subjective morality, right? If all morality is subjective, then I am not really a kafir, would you think? Then if morality is subjective, then I have no fear of Islamic hell for kafirs, would you not agree?

You can't say morality is subjective then say your morality is correct and mine not.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 4.445 Narrated by Abu Dhar The Prophet (saws) said, "Jibrael said to me, 'Whoever amongst your followers die without having worshipped others besides Allah, will enter Paradise (or will not enter the (Hell) Fire)." The Prophet (saws) asked. "Even if he has committed illegal sexual intercourse or theft?" Jibrael (a.s.) replied, "Even then!"

Subjective morality?
Islamic Help Line

Respected brother, in light of the above absolutely clear guidance of Allah and His Messenger (saws) it is evident that not every one who considered himself to be a 'muslim' in the life of this world will enter Paradise.....but rather only those whom The Lord Most Gracious Determines to be true 'muslims' on that Inevitable and Tumultuous Day of Judgment will be shown the Mercy of their Lord Most Merciful.

You don't even have any guarantee in this life that you even have the promise of paradise no matter how much a good Muslim you believe you are. Not even Mohammed had that guarantee.

Sahih Muslim Hadith 6251 Narrated by Abu Hurayrah Allah's Messenger (saws) said: 'Do you know who is a 'muflis' (abjectly poor or one who is totally bankrupt)?' They (the Companions (r.a.) of the Prophet (saws)) said: 'A 'muflis' amongst us is one who has neither dirham with him nor wealth.' He (the Prophet (saws)) said: 'The 'muflis' of my Ummah would be he who would come on the Day of Resurrection with prayers and fasts and Zakah but (he would find himself bankrupt on that day as he would have exhausted his funds of virtues) since he hurled abuses upon others, brought calumny against others, unlawfully consumed the wealth of others, shed the blood of others, and beat others. His virtues would be credited to the account of one (who suffered at his hand). And if his good deeds fall short to clear the account (of his mis-deeds), then their sins would be entered in (his account) and he would be thrown in the Hell-Fire!'

Mohammed did everyone of those things. Perhaps you need to connect the dots yourself. Mohammed went to the Hell fire.

reply to post by WarminIndy


everyone dies. And prophet Muhammad(pbuh) died. If you say that Allah said He will kill him if he said anything unauthorised and he died, and you used it to explain his morality then you have a big problem in your reasoning

reply to post by WarminIndy


Mohammed did everyone of those
things. Perhaps you need to connect
the dots yourself. Mohammed went to
the Hell fire.
.
.
You quote a hadith and then say an assumption and then you are out with conclusion which you desire. Good for you but it doesnt change anything.

Originally posted by logical7

what about God`s attributes. how do you know How He is? thats essential to not get mislead by self or others. right and wrong are very subjective, say for example,an extreme one, for cannibles, killing human is not the same, they may worship God but they need guidance to determine morality.

By reading the Book, observation, and experience - comparing what is written there as a touchstone against personal experience, to determine whether I'm fooling myself or not. If my experience does not add up with what God says, then God is not the one lying.

Originally posted by logical7

laws of physics are derived from observation.
and you cannot break laws of physics, but break bones trying..

We can KNOW what the laws of physics are via observation, but they exist nonetheless without any observation at all. they are, in that sense, entirely independent of observation. We only employ observation so that we know what they are, and what not to do in order to avoid the broken bones.
.

morality is subjective.

Morality is only subjective in the eyes of men - "situational ethics" and all that. Man invented that notion. God does not change, and so does not have "situational ethics". Absolute morals, as determined by God, are absolute, do not change.

I believe you are right, though, in saying that wrong morals may not be recognized as such by the individual employing them, in which case he will not know his error until Judgement Day. This is something I believe is determined by God - he does not love all men, and will allow some to find their own way to the fire.

If God loved all as most Christians believe, then none would go to the fire, and there would be no need for hell, because God cannot be thwarted in his will. If he willed all to live eternally, then all would. Since it is plainly state that some will not escape the fire, God cannot love all men.
.

Originally posted by InhaleExhale

You deny that Jesus was Muslim by saying Islam wasn't even created then and then say the early Christians were around before the bible was even around, do you mean the pagans that had similar beliefs and practices as Christians? or are you saying Christianity was around centuries before Christ?

Christianity existed before the New Testament was collected together, just as Islam existed before the verses of the Qur'an were collected together.

Jesus lived some 6 centuries before the modern organization of Islam, as it stands now as an organized religion. On the other hand, some are not aware, perhaps, of the broader use of the term "islam", which is not organized in the same way as Islam.

Originally posted by InhaleExhale
You deny that Jesus was Muslim by saying Islam wasn't even created then

I'm stating a FACT. Islam wasn't around when Christ was around. Christ wasn't muslim

and then say the early Christians were around before the bible was even around,

That is completely correct. Christians and christianity were in practice for 300+ years before the bible was solidified by the Christian councils.

do you mean the pagans that had similar beliefs and practices as Christians? or are you saying Christianity was around centuries before Christ?

Neither of those. I don't even know how you got to those thoughts.
Christianity started with Christ. But the bible didn't arrive until 300 years later.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

everyone dies. And prophet Muhammad(pbuh) died. If you say that Allah said He will kill him if he said anything unauthorised and he died, and you used it to explain his morality then you have a big problem in your reasoning

Does everyone die in this manner "If I say falsehoods, then God will kill me"? Mohammed made the statement and it was required of him.

And yes, Mohammed did everyone of those things he told others not to do. Even Allah committed shirk. So how can you have faith in Allah and Mohammed, when Allah himself commits the greatest sins?

Other things the Quran mentions:

Jibreel ("Gabriel"): in charge of delivering revelation. Mika'il: in charge of bringing the rain. Israfil: the blower of the horn on Qiyama (Judgement Day). Malik-ul-Maut: the Angel of Death who takes people's souls at death. The Noble Recorders: those who record people's actions. The Protectors (Al-Mu'aqqibat): who keep people from death until its decreed time. Ridhwan: in charge of Paradise. Malik: in charge of Hell. Munkar and Nakir: the questioners in the grave. The Carriers of the Throne. Those who record the future of the fetus. Those who enter the Haram: 70,000 every day. Those who move about, descending upon gatherings at which Allah and His Book are mentioned and studied. Belief in the angels is an integral part of iman (faith). [See 2/285 Al-Baqarah] Kufr (disbelief) with respect to the angels is kufr (a state of disbelief).

Mohammed was a Ba'al worshiper, and I can prove it right here. Malik, in charge of hell. Malik is a Semitic word cognate with Molech. That was the idol in which the Ba'al worshipers sacrificed their children to in the fire. Malik is Molech, the god of fire. The levels of Molech are seven, corresponding to the seven levels of Islamic paradise. Molech worship was about sex, sex and more sex. In fact, the Pheonician name for Molech is Malik.

And one of the names of Allah is Ar-Rahim, what is interesting is that it is THE SAME NAME as Anath. Whoa, you mean the name of a woman goddess in Canaanite religion is exactly the same as Allah?

The Quran is a compendium of Ba'al worship in literature and practice. Even exemplified by the symbolism.

Hmm, so the Quran is directly stating that Malik is in charge of hell? The same Malik that was the god of fire? I might have thought that there was no Ba'al worship until I saw that Michael was associated with bringing rain. That sealed it for me.

Michael is mentioned nowhere in the Torah or Bible as being associated with bringing rain. Where did Mohammed come up with that? Ba'al worship.

Ba‘al was the storm god, the bringer of rain, and thus fertility, to the land. The Quran states over and over "the Lord" which was what Ba'al was called. However, it should be noted that whenever the Jews were referring to "The Lord God" the Hebrew usage is Adonai, Ba'al was a different god altogether. Because the Quran never makes the distinction between the two and the refers to Ba'al by the usage of Malik, it appears that the Quran is Ba'al oriented.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Malik, in charge of hell. Malik is a Semitic word cognate with Molech.

Malik sounds like Molech.... which also sounds like "Malachi".... the one who wrote the last book of the OT.
Do you suspect they are all the same....since they sound the same?

And one of the names of Allah is Ar-Rahim, what is interesting is that it is THE SAME NAME as Anath. Whoa, you mean the name of a woman goddess in Canaanite religion is exactly the same as Allah?

Ar-Rahim is the same name as Anath?? What????

reply to post by WarminIndy


wasn't it the Canaanites in the bible who "served other Gods"?

reply to post by WarminIndy

Whaaat? Where are you getting this stuff? Michael is in charge of rain according to the Quran? Says who? The only reference to the Angel Michael in the Quran is "Whoever is an enemy to God, and His angels and His messengers, and Jibreel and Mikhail! Then, lo! God (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers."
Nothing about rain there.

Seriously...where do you get this stuff? Anti-islam websites seem a great resource to learn about Islam from, ey?

And...wow...do you know nothing at all about the hebrew scriptures? You know what "Malik" means? "Master", or "King". מלך m-l-k is used throughout the OT. It has the same root as the word used for Molokh, sure, but it isn't the same word. The word was the word used for the king's of Israel. It is used for loads of kings. Heck, the word is used to refer to God reign in the OT. Jews use the word as a title for God. "Melech Malchei Ha-M'lachim". And you know one of the titles of Jesus in the NT? Guess how it would be rendered in hebrew? Hint- it is very similar to the hebrew I just wrote. Does that turn Jesus in Baal?

But you know what the Quran says about Ba'al?

Surah 37, verse 123-
Elijah too was one of the messengers. He said to his people, ‘Have you no fear of God? How can you invoke Baal and forsake the Most Gracious Creator, God, your Lord and the Lord of your forefathers?’ but they rejected him.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Whaaat? Where are you getting this stuff? Michael is in charge of rain according to the Quran? Says who? The only reference to the Angel Michael in the Quran is "Whoever is an enemy to God, and His angels and His messengers, and Jibreel and Mikhail! Then, lo! God (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers."
Nothing about rain there.

Seriously...where do you get this stuff? Anti-islam websites seem a great resource to learn about Islam from, ey?

Nope, got it from a pro-Muslim website. I gave the link, so go look at it. I could not even make that up if I tried. But here is the link again...
Muttaqun Online

When you want to know the most about the Quran, you either read it for yourself (which I have) or you read it from someone who has. If you have problems with these Muslims saying this, then go contact the site and inform them of their error. Otherwise, don't complain to us that these people said it.

So you found it amusing, I did too. But if they say it is in the Quran, then I suppose I would have to accept it is there, they are the Quran experts.

reply to post by WarminIndy


it makes sense, why you would go to all lengths and disregard something as stupid as reasoning to prove your already formed views. I also understand your difficulty, you dont have the luxury to even entertain the thought that Muhammad(pbuh) could be a messenger and Quran could be from the same God, God of Jesus(pbuh), you and me, because that would shatter your spoon fed belief. The church tried for centuries to keep their people away from the information of islam, character assasination of Muhammad(pbuh), spreading disinformation etc. So nothing new.
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.and about your brilliant observations.. They dont stand at all if we see a single historical event, when Muhammad(pbuh) got control of Makkah, all the idols,were destroyed.
Want more? If what you say was true, the pagan makkans and the prophet would be best buddies.
.
Now lets see who does idol worship.
Who has a statue of Jesus(pbuh) on a cross? our beloved prophet depicted in a suffering way all the time.
Who has statues of Mary and other saints and pray to them?
Who are breaking the commandment of not making graven images of anything that walks, swim or fly? and yet your would see human, fish and dove statues all over, wow not left a single mode.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by logical7

what about God`s attributes. how do you know How He is? thats essential to not get mislead by self or others. right and wrong are very subjective, say for example,an extreme one, for cannibles, killing human is not the same, they may worship God but they need guidance to determine morality.

By reading the Book, observation, and experience - comparing what is written there as a touchstone against personal experience, to determine whether I'm fooling myself or not. If my experience does not add up with what God says, then God is not the one lying.

which Book? and why just one? There are at least three, OT,NT,QURAN.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

it makes sense, why you would go to all lengths and disregard something as stupid as reasoning to prove your already formed views. I also understand your difficulty, you dont have the luxury to even entertain the thought that Muhammad(pbuh) could be a messenger and Quran could be from the same God, God of Jesus(pbuh), you and me, because that would shatter your spoon fed belief. The church tried for centuries to keep their people away from the information of islam, character assasination of Muhammad(pbuh), spreading disinformation etc. So nothing new.
.
.and about your brilliant observations.. They dont stand at all if we see a single historical event, when Muhammad(pbuh) got control of Makkah, all the idols,were destroyed.
Want more? If what you say was true, the pagan makkans and the prophet would be best buddies.

Mohammed worshiped right along with the pagans until his last year of life. Imagine that. And no, they are not the same God, I think that is very clearly proven historically and archeologically and by Scripture.

I think you are the one who is spoon fed by Islamic scholars and imams. You have not disproven anything I have said, you only fell back on the deflection. That does not work with me. But not everything was destroyed, the black stone is still there.

"The Black Stone is the right hand of Allah Most High." Ibn Qutayba in Ta' wil Mukhtalif al-Hadith

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia: 'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

The practice of kissing the black stone was pagan. Why did Mohammed do what the pagans did? Does the black stone really expiate your sins?

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 2.697 Narrated byIbn Abbas Allah's Apostle performed Tawaf (of the Kaba) riding a camel (at that time the Prophet had foot injury). Whenever he came to the Corner (having the Black Stone) he would point out towards it with a thing in his hand and say, "Allahu-Akbar."

He said Allahu-Akbar when pointing to the black stone? and this god is your God.

Apparently you love to jump to conclusions and assume things.

Who has a statue of Jesus(pbuh) on a cross? our beloved prophet depicted in a suffering way all the time.

Not me

Who has statues of Mary and other saints and pray to them?

Not me

Who are breaking the commandment of not making graven images of anything that walks, swim or fly? and yet your would see human, fish and dove statues all over, wow not left a single mode.

Not me.

Now see what you did, you could not deny the criticism of the Quran so you attempted to deflect by saying "what about this, what about that?" Typical, typical.

You are going to have to recognize what your allah is. He is nothing more than a rock. Mohammed proves it, Ibn Abbas proves it and Uthman proves it and ever since then every caliph, imam and scholar has proven it. The symbols are on your mosques, the symbols are in your holy city Mecca and the symbols are in your hadiths. There was no Christian or Jew who put those symbols there.

reply to post by WarminIndy


The objection i have is you telling me what God i worship or even going and assuming that all the muslims are pagans? So i had to bring to notice that nobody can reach up to catholic church in the acceptance of paganism, they went to the lengths of erasing a commandment to accomodate statues to please their roman masters and crowds.
.
.and if we continue about pagans, only they have stories about gods and godesses behaving as humans and sometimes worst.
Stories of god having a son, stories of gods coming down and mating with humans to give birth to demi-gods.
So i just wonder, and a lot, how much the pagan romans influenced the church and to what extent to make up a faith that they could easily identify and accept. A faith the was a hybrid of the pure motheistic faith that Jesus(pbuh) preached and the pagan concepts that were impossible to remove from pagan population. The change of sabbath day to Sunday, birth of christ, goddess esther/easter eggs.
Could it be possible they went as far as giving God a son? Hmm.. I just wonder..
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and about your accusations regarding Islam and Muhammad(pbuh) i can tell you, i agree 100% with Umar(ra)
and the prophet dint worship alongside pagans after having control of makkah and to this day no pagans are allowed near Kabah.
.
And pointing at something and saying "Allah hu Akbar"(Allah is greater/greatest) doesnt make that thing god, pointing at it was a symbolic act of touching from a distance. And a muslim can say "Allah hu Akbar" and even bow down in front of a tree while praying. And only a pagan would assume that he is worshipping the tree or calling it god.

Jesus could not have been a muslim..

Unlike Mohammed, I have never heard of jesus beating women or raping little boys bottoms..

2nd

reply to post by WarminIndy

Mohammed was a Ba'al worshiper, and I can prove it right here. Malik, in charge of hell. Malik is a Semitic word cognate with Molech. That was the idol in which the Ba'al worshipers sacrificed their children to in the fire. Malik is Molech, the god of fire. The levels of Molech are seven, corresponding to the seven levels of Islamic paradise. Molech worship was about sex, sex and more sex. In fact, the Pheonician name for Molech is Malik.

And one of the names of Allah is Ar-Rahim, what is interesting is that it is THE SAME NAME as Anath. Whoa, you mean the name of a woman goddess in Canaanite religion is exactly the same as Allah?

The Quran is a compendium of Ba'al worship in literature and practice. Even exemplified by the symbolism.

Hmm, so the Quran is directly stating that Malik is in charge of hell? The same Malik that was the god of fire? I might have thought that there was no Ba'al worship until I saw that Michael was associated with bringing rain. That sealed it for me.

Michael is mentioned nowhere in the Torah or Bible as being associated with bringing rain. Where did Mohammed come up with that? Ba'al worship.

Ba‘al was the storm god, the bringer of rain, and thus fertility, to the land. The Quran states over and over "the Lord" which was what Ba'al was called. However, it should be noted that whenever the Jews were referring to "The Lord God" the Hebrew usage is Adonai, Ba'al was a different god altogether. Because the Quran never makes the distinction between the two and the refers to Ba'al by the usage of Malik, it appears that the Quran is Ba'al oriented.

Polytheism dressed up in hebrew clothing. Rome did the same thing with the Saints. The Statue of St. Peter in Rome is actually Jupiter or Saturnus and the one of Mary and baby "Jesus" is actually Aphrodite and her son Eros the god of love. What better way to decieve people into idolatry then to make them think they're "praying" to saints and angels?



Isis and Horus, Devaki and Krishna, "Mary" and baby "Jesus", Semiramis and Nimrod (NImrod later became Tammuz), Ishtar and Tammuz (or Dumuzi). Oh the list goes on.

Babylonian scriptures called her the "Light of the World, Leader of Hosts, Opener of the Womb, Righteous Judge, Lawgiver, Goddess of Goddesses, Bestower of Strength, Framer of All decress, Lady of Victory,
Forgiver of Sins, Torch of Heaven and Earth.


Many are her sacred titles - "Exalted Light of Heaven",
"She Who Begets All", "Guardian of the Law" and "Shepherdess of the Lands"


This is the skank God railed at the jews for worshipping in Jeremiah 7, also known as Astarte, Ashera or Ashtoreth the "queen of heaven".

As for Molech, his symbol is mentioned in Amos 5:26, or depicted below if you really want to see it:



See *Magen David*.

Also known as the Seal of Saturn, or Seal of Solomon, but this thing never had anything to do with David, he had a Menorah painted on his shield, not the footprint of Molech, which this thing has also been called.