Romney TORTURE Memo Leaked

Originally posted by RealSpoke


“Waterboarding is torture,” Mr. Obama said in November. “It’s contrary to America’s traditions. It’s contrary to our ideals. That’s not who we are. That’s not how we operate.

Torture does not work not to mention it is horrible immoral and a violation of human rights. So the bottom line is to "rescind Obama's executive order." Bringing back the old Bush / Cheney ways of dealing with situations. Those really worked out great.

Instead Obama just "DRONES" them so they never knew what hit them, while they, the enemy just lops off heads for the Mainstream Media. I'd wager the OP never served his country or saw combat.

Under true capitalism there would be no bailouts, no printing of monopoly money, no bernanke at the dinner table..

Of course you don't have true capitalism either when the government slaps you with taxes and regulations seven ways from sunday.

Originally posted by JackBauer
Under true capitalism there would be no bailouts, no printing of monopoly money, no bernanke at the dinner table..

Of course you don't have true capitalism either when the government slaps you with taxes and regulations seven ways from sunday.

There's no such thing as true capitalism, it's just made up to scare little kids, like the boogey man...

Discomfort, stress, fear and the manipulation and imposition of other emotional responses are not “torture” they are tools used to get hard and fanatical men to reveal facts about their operations that they ordinarily would not.

This is ridiculous; what we do in the US is not torture. Now; however, even under the “Immaculate and Uncorruptable one – Obama - the hard core detainees are in fact sincerely tortured in other locations.

All the do-gooders out there who cried for us to stop our "torture" can blame themselves for the now real and genuine suffering of those who were subsequently sent to far worse places to achieve the same thing we did under our own officers and control - albeit with less effective results.

Enhanced interrogation, which is more like intense physical and mental manipulation that may produce momentary panic or mental fatigue and stress is not "torture". Dislike the methods all you want. I do know that the methods without a doubt produce documented and good usable/ actionable intelligence.

Most of the techniques used on the detainees are the same ones used on our own Soldiers in SERE School. Yes - you will talk; that is a fact. However, it's hardly torture. No permanent effects. In addition to SERE school prior to being authorized to use any technique you must first have been subjected to it so you know how to safely do it and what the effects feel like. We have doctors checking them all the time to make sure there is no permanent dammage.

I wonder if a doctor is on hand when they cut one of our guys heads off with a knife on camera?

It is a classic case of the choosing the devil you know...it is so much better under Obama we get to outsource more jobs – even interrogation. The best part is that everyone believes we don’t because of the negrophillia effect that makes Obama seem incorruptible. 40+ Years of media indocrination is working.

This is so blatantly misrepresenting things.

First, the memo is not a "Romney" memo. It's a memo TO Romney. Second, they outright lie and state it's a done deal...that Romney would reinstate torture. No it's not. These are OTHER people saying things to Romney. This does not indicate in any way what Romney's position on this issue is.

PROPAGANDA!

I am firmly opposed to torture. I'm also firmly opposed to people twisting things and trying to make this look like Romney has given a thumbs up to reinstating it.

reply to post by votan

...even if Obama isn't lieing... its not like obama has direct control of everything our military and intelligence agencies do. HOw much is not kept from him like it is from our representatives under the guise of national security.

I have to agree with this - there's no way anyone can control anything to that extent

But even if it is still happening and people are right to cry hypocrisy - how much less control over the situation do we have if our national policy is actually pro-torture?

And to those people who argue that it's a useful tool I can only say - so what?

Look how well it's working out for Assad

We either stand for what's right or we don't - the ends don't justify the means

Torturing is inhuman

reply to post by Valhall

Originally posted by Valhall
PROPAGANDA!

Good luck selling that.

Some people got it REAL bad...

Frankly, I don't see us pulling out of this nosedive, and it looks like history will repeat itself, I'm afraid.

The off-the-grid nutters are looking like the smartest bunch in the group...

I'm gonna go buy me some seeds and a shovel.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by RealSpoke


Torture does not work

How do you know?

I bet even you can think of one instance where torture would be acceptable.

Say you have a time machine and go back to the day before the USA was nuked by 500 nukes at the same time in 500 major US cities. Lets say you found the guy who just delivered these launch codes to the main nuke controller but he's not talking. You just let him walk? See you in the next life.. or do you torture him to get the info and save your country?.

This is exactly the kind of make-believe tripe pro-torture people use to sell the idea - the worst case scenario

Suggest things that will never happen - but put people in that special place where you get them to think it's OK

So - you're defending the use of torture?

Originally posted by Golf66

There is only one shield that even in time will prevent Obama from going down in history as the worst POTUS ever.

No...Reality will make sure that is not the case

George Bush received America with nearly 4% unemployment and left it with 10%
unemployment when his policies sunset in Sept 2009.

Obama took office with that 10% and has brought it down to 8.1% thus far.

When the economy fully rebounds in the next few years, Obama is gonna look real good
to historians.

Originally posted by JackBauer
Under true capitalism there would be no bailouts, no printing of monopoly money, no bernanke at the dinner table..

Of course you don't have true capitalism either when the government slaps you with taxes and regulations seven ways from sunday.

Under true capitalism there is slavery and unmitigated warfare, Africa still has some parts with true capitalism.

reply to post by sonnny1


So, you're claiming your thread and posting history is more balanced?

This particular thread pointing a finger at Romney is out of line and hypocritical?

How is this thread in any way shape or form hypocritical?

From the link included by the OP in the OP:

WASHINGTON — Neither Barack Obama nor Mitt Romney has said much about torture as part of terrorism investigations during the 2012 general campaign. But the future of American government practices when interrogating high-level terrorism suspects appears likely to turn on the outcome of the election.

www.nytimes.com...

Straight away - first thing in the article. This is relevant

Not good for news Romney - even if he never saw the memo - even if he doesn't agree with or support it

This is politics Sonny - not pretty

Please explain how this thread and this subject is not relevant

Then, more importantly - how is it hypocritical?

You've turned this into a personal attack by including the OPs posting history, so go ahead and use examples from your own posting history if you believe that will help demonstrate how balanced and superior your own views are - as if that even matters

You don't like what he's saying? Fine - argue with what he's saying

You think Obama is pro-torture - making all of this a ridiculous accusation from the get go? Fine - give us that dirt on Obama then

What you're doing here is not cool

And I say that with some restraint

P.S. Here's a hint about why this is relevant: This is a group within the GOP taking it upon themselves to recommend policy to what they hope will be their future president

Go ahead - talk amongst yourselves

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Actually it wasn't a personal attack. It was more or less I would like to see non biased, BOTH Candidates, being called out for the same thing. That was it. If a person on ATS claims that both Candidates are horrible, ALL the time, but ONLY plays on one side of the coin ALL the time, Im going to say something about it. Sorry if you feel the need to hold someones hand, because I said what I feel, is Hypocritical.Outright. Now you want to get "personal" with me? Im fine with that. BOTH CANDIDATES are the same. Please show me where I am wrong. Please show me why our current President shouldn't be held to a higher standard, then say a Presidential "hopeful"? Kill lists, NDAA, Gitmo, Drone Wars, etc.....and Romney is the bad guy, that needs to be pointed out? Preposterous.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

We either stand for what's right or we don't - the ends don't justify the means

Torturing is inhuman

Torture doesn't work - however, enhanced interrogation does not equal torture.

To the untrained and unqualified (this includes our illustrious leader BTW) muscle fatigue, fear, hunger, and sleep deprivation are "torture". You have to understand to that people have different breaking points - take for instance our Operators.

While I might indeed get a person off the street to tell me everything they know with some intimidating looks some fake legalese and threats - to break a well trained and/or highly trained operative you need more tools.

Muscle fatigue, hunger, and sleep deprivation help to lower a person's ability to think clearly and coherently enough to maintain a complex set of lies - i.e. a cover story. To people who are in the business these things are part of their training so they are used to them. What to a person on the street might be unbearable these type men think of as a challenge or training....

So you need some more advanced tools on hand to get them into a complaint or less resistive manner. One of those main tools is fear of the unknown.

While everyone has a different point of breaking (and a different emotional trigger) the only thing our POTUS did when he announced to the world we would no longer use enhanced interrogation is take away that main element. Fear of the unknown is the best tool an interrogator has. The subject has to believe that you will credibly act on any threat for the threat to have any effect. He has to believe you have no boundaries at all...

The point I am getting at is that most men never have to be taken beyond the threat to be broken for it is the fear of being completely at your mercy that will make them talk. I don't think people realize how infrequently these methods were actually used and the level of approval required to use them. I am no longer privy to such things but in my time in the business I'd estimate it was used on less than 1:100 of the prisoners.

I can assure you most detainees are already quite compliant when captured - it’s called the "shock of capture". However, letting them get some sleep and a good meal is not going to do anything but make them comfortable and more resistant. We aren’t going to let them starve or go crazy from lack of sleep but until we get what we need, we most certainly are not going to let them get comfortable.

For those who are going with the thinking hunger, muscle fatigue and sleep deprivation are forms of torture have never obviously been Soldiers. We experience them all the time. Lopping off body parts and crap is torture, a water boarding is stressful and scary – no more.

If you are going to limit interrogations to asking nicely I am afraid you won't get much information...

I am afraid that all taking away the fear of the unknown does is ensure that every detainee has to be taken to his actual physical and mental breaking point because now they have no need to fear anything less.

The threats that were good enough to break 99:100 men are gone which means more will have to be “outsourced” and ultimately actually tortured by horrible men (who in most instances enjoy it) in places most would never dreamed to exist.

So the opposite of the intend goal was achieved – the end result is more pain and suffering not less. Again, the fear of these things used to be enough - now that fear is gone.

Uncle Barry is not as innocent as he (or his media worshipers) would have your believe.

Originally posted by Valhall
This is so blatantly misrepresenting things.

First, the memo is not a "Romney" memo. It's a memo TO Romney. Second, they outright lie and state it's a done deal...that Romney would reinstate torture. No it's not. These are OTHER people saying things to Romney. This does not indicate in any way what Romney's position on this issue is.

PROPAGANDA!

I am firmly opposed to torture. I'm also firmly opposed to people twisting things and trying to make this look like Romney has given a thumbs up to reinstating it.

Romney has intentionally hired the Neocon operatives who initiated the security states as we now know
it, these men and their ideas were the archetypes for torture and security state.

Originally posted by Golf66

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

We either stand for what's right or we don't - the ends don't justify the means

Torturing is inhuman

Torture doesn't work - however, enhanced interrogation does not equal torture.

Originally posted by campanionator


Romney has intentionally hired the Neocon operatives who initiated the security states as we now know
it, these men and their ideas were the archetypes for torture and security state.

Thats great, but Obama has those same "Neocon" operatives running his entire show, right?

Who gives the call, for the "kill list"?


I rest my case.

reply to post by sonnny1

It was more or less I would like to see non biased, BOTH Candidates, being called out for the same thing

I don't see that as being genuine

I stand by what I said

not cool - you can do better

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by campanionator


Romney has intentionally hired the Neocon operatives who initiated the security states as we now know
it, these men and their ideas were the archetypes for torture and security state.

Thats great, but Obama has those same "Neocon" operatives running his entire show, right?

Who gives the call, for the "kill list"?


I rest my case.

Did you Read, Fire, Aim???

First, the memo is not a "Romney" memo. It's a memo TO Romney. Second, they outright lie and state it's a done deal...that Romney would reinstate torture. No it's not. These are OTHER people saying things to Romney. This does not indicate in any way what Romney's position on this issue is.

Yes you did, hot shot!

Originally posted by subject x
I'm anti-torture. I think said Executive Order was a great idea.

That being said...

Does anybody really think that we're not still torturing people?

That's a hard one.. One fírst has to decide what ís, and what ísn't torture.

The are tóns of rather insiduous ways to torment people without áctual bodily harm. Harsh light in the cell 24/7, creating a super-noisy surrounding. Verbal bullying etc. Yet, these are nót considered "torture" par sé

Still. It's a clear sign about whát sort of people Romney represents. The "declined Comment" of the lawyer from the Romney entourage, is also a dead-giveaway there's something foul going on, and they knów it.

Whenever ányone around an authority-figure (yes, éven Obie) mumbles a "no comment", all sorts of warning flags and sirens should start blaring in one's mind. Of Smoke and Fire..

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Again....I gave you the "why". What I said originally within a whole post, was cherry-picked, WITHOUT even getting an answer to it.


The whole post:

Let me know when the OP creates a thread "criticizing" Obama, and his tactics.

I wont be looking for it though,cause that would mean honest, open discussion, not one-sided finger-pointing, in an effort to Pander Agenda, or garner S&F's.......Just MHO.



Again, I stand by what I said, especially since I am 100% right.

The current President has NO CARES of killing in the name of, and is NOT being held accountable for it, by his supporters. Not only that, Those that "claim" impartiality" are not being true, to me, or to ATS. Memo or "Kill List"? Which one is more important, currently?


Peace.