Gary Johnson included in Ohio poll (RCP approved), gets double digit support!

Originally posted by RealSpoke


anarcho~capitalists really think that liberty and free markets would cause perfect equality.

No, they think it would cause much better equality than what we currently have. It's quite obvious your thought process consists only of extremes, with no room for negotiation.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

You're trying to use a dictionary as an accurate definition of what a libertarian is?

That's generally what a dictionary is for, to find the definition of a word. Whether or not people use the word correctly is beside the point.

reply to post by Erongaricuaro

Don't get bent, Spoke, but I have seen you repeat that mantra several times in the past few days. Repeating it over and over does not make it true.

So I guess you ignore all of the facts that I've posted? All of the examples of anarchists using the term for centuries? It's not my fault you people don't know where the word came from....then try to tell me I'm wrong when I continually post sources to prove otherwise.

Anarchists have been using the term "libertarian" to describe themselves and their ideas since the 1850's. According to anarchist historian Max Nettlau, the revolutionary anarchist Joseph Dejacque published Le Libertaire, Journal du Mouvement Social in New York between 1858 and 1861 while the use of the term "libertarian communism" dates from November, 1880 when a French anarchist congress adopted it. [Max Nettlau, A Short History of Anarchism, p. 75 and p. 145] The use of the term "Libertarian" by anarchists became more popular from the 1890s onward after it was used in France in an attempt to get round anti-anarchist laws and to avoid the negative associations of the word "anarchy" in the popular mind (Sebastien Faure and Louise Michel published the paper Le Libertaire -- The Libertarian -- in France in 1895, for example). Since then, particularly outside America, it has always been associated with anarchist ideas and movements. Taking a more recent example, in the USA, anarchists organised "The Libertarian League" in July 1954, which had staunch anarcho-syndicalist principles and lasted until 1965. The US-based "Libertarian" Party, on the other hand has only existed since the early 1970's, well over 100 years after anarchists first used the term to describe their political ideas (and 90 years after the expression "libertarian communism" was first adopted). It is that party, not the anarchists, who have "stolen" the word. Later, in Section B, we will discuss why the idea of a "libertarian" capitalism (as desired by the Libertarian Party) is a contradiction in terms.

infoshop.org...

I know that it hurts all you right wingers to realize that you're using a term started by anarchist communists.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by Erongaricuaro

 

Don't get bent, Spoke, but I have seen you repeat that mantra several times in the past few days. Repeating it over and over does not make it true.

So I guess you ignore all of the facts that I've posted? All of the examples of anarchists using the term for centuries?

Read the post above you many times until it sinks in. Then look up the definition of the word "fact".

reply to post by bl4ke360


Can you tell me what isn't factual about my post? Because all it does is state historical facts.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by bl4ke360

 

Can you tell me what isn't factual about my post? Because all it does is state historical facts.

Historical facts of anarchists referring to themselves as libertarians doesn't change the meaning of the word libertarian, as much as you wish it did.
If I use your logic, Obama referring to himself as a liberal definitely changes the definition of the word liberal. But I don't see any dictionaries doing this, do you?
That's because incorrectly using the wrong word doesn't actually change the meaning of that word. I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but one day you may understand.

Wow to bad this thread devolved into a pissing match over the definition of Libertarianism when more importantly people need to watch the OP video and wake up their neighbors....

This polling hints that we have a chance here to do something great if we can get the word out and break the 2 party stranglehold. Johnson can win this thing, he wants to win it and we don't have to try and play the game with the corrupt republican or democrat machines!

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by Erongaricuaro

 

It's not my fault you people don't know where the word came from....then try to tell me I'm wrong when I continually post sources to prove otherwise.

If you feel you own the proper definitions then perhaps you can help us by re-examining Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, and other so-called libertarians and telling us how you would define them - and us, for that matter. Perhaps if we all learn to communicate with you by speaking in your terminology it would make all this a bit more productive. It is obvious someone has been mis-characterizing all of us, at least according to the terms and definitions you use.

How are successful politicians like Paul and Johnson considered by you to be "anarchists" if by your definitions they do not believe in government at all?

en.wiktionary.org...

anarchy (countable and uncountable; plural anarchies)

(uncountable) The state of a society being without authorities or a governing body.
(uncountable) Anarchism; the political theory that a community is best organized by the voluntary cooperation of individuals, rather than by a government, which is regarded as being coercive by nature.
(countable) A chaotic and confusing absence of any form of political authority or government.
Confusion in general; disorder.

Usage notes

(confusion or misunderstanding in general): Anarchists feel it is inappropriate to use anarchy to mean “a state of chaos or confusion”. However, this has historically been a common use of the word.

Realspoke, I am not sure what you think is real about libertarians and/or what a libertarian represents... Libertarians by todays standards represent what the two party system do not - limiting government and increasing freedoms. "Anarchy" is chaos - in which no rules and no government would be involved. Look up the word anarchy by itself and see what the true meaning of the word really means. If we had an anarchal system, there would be no government or rule of law whatsoever.

reply to post by bl4ke360

Historical facts of anarchists referring to themselves as libertarians doesn't change the meaning of the word libertarian, as much as you wish it did.

lol, an anarchist invented the word to define his beliefs, you hate facts, I can tell.

Etymology

The word stems from the French word libertaire. The use of the word "libertarian" to describe a set of political positions can be tracked to the French cognate, libertaire, which was coined in 1857 by French anarchist Joseph Déjacque who used the term to distinguish his libertarian communist approach from the mutualism advocated by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.[35] Hence libertarian has been used by some as a synonym for left anarchism since the 1890s.[36] The term libertarianism is commonly considered to be a synonym of anarchism in countries other than the US.[9]

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by RealSpoke

Etymology

The term libertarianism is commonly considered to be a synonym of anarchism in countries other than the US.[9]

en.wikipedia.org...

What country are you in?

Originally posted by RealSpoke

The word stems from the French word libertaire. The use of the word "libertarian" to describe a set of political positions can be tracked to the French cognate, libertaire, which was coined in 1857 by French anarchist Joseph Déjacque who used the term to distinguish his libertarian communist approach from the mutualism advocated by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.[35] Hence libertarian has been used by some as a synonym for left anarchism since the 1890s.[36] The term libertarianism is commonly considered to be a synonym of anarchism in countries other than the US.[9]

Let's see here, I don't live in the 1800's, I don't live outside the USA, so how does any of that apply to me? Libertarian as America knows it today, is far from being anarchist. This just seems like something you will never understand for some reason. Do you think it's just a coincidence that you're the only one here who is spewing this nonsense?

reply to post by RealSpoke


You are mixing a persons subjective terminology toward his own view of how he wanted his perfect world to be with politics. I can tell someone I am a libertarian and mean something completely different than "anarchist".

I know you guys are upset you've been informed that you're using a word in the wrong way, a total anti-thesis of what the word really means....

If you're not an anarchist, you're not a libertarian. You can't have total liberty and a government at the same time.

But I'll just stop arguing this point since it offends you guys so much. I don't really feel like going back and forth mainly because it's getting boring.

Originally posted by hawkiye
Wow to bad this thread devolved into a pissing match over the definition of Libertarianism when more importantly people need to watch the OP video and wake up their neighbors....

This polling hints that we have a chance here to do something great if we can get the word out and break the 2 party stranglehold. Johnson can win this thing, he wants to win it and we don't have to try and play the game with the corrupt republican or democrat machines!

Agreed. Any opposition to the corrupt two party system is sorely needed and it's good to see that a 3rd party candidate actually is drawing support. I only wish it were Ron Paul.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
I know you guys are upset you've been informed that you're using a word in the wrong way, a total anti-thesis of what the word really means....

If you're not an anarchist, you're not a libertarian. You can't have total liberty and a government at the same time.

But I'll just stop arguing this point since it offends you guys so much. I don't really feel like going back and forth mainly because it's getting boring.

I will call myself a small-government social liberal, fiscal conservative or anything else you can relate to appropriately if it will help bring about constructive dialog.

Originally posted by RealSpoke

You can't have total liberty and a government at the same time.

Total liberty in the most absolute sense is not what libertarians believe in, that's what anarchists believe in. For example not having to pay taxes of any kind. How many ways do I have to word this for you to understand?

reply to post by RealSpoke


^^^^ lmao, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Ok, back to Gary Johnson, an accomplished governor breaking the two party paradigm.

It seems Americans have had enough with the lies, deceit, and manipulation, they are standing up. Maybe we (Americans) won't win during the 2012 elections (because Obama or Romney winning = a big fat lose for Americans) but maybe we will win in the long run.

Whats amazing is that all they had to do was include him in the polling process. Before the height of the 2012 Republican Primaries, Ron Paul was polling 18-21% in national head to head with Romney and Obama in the mix. I imagine Ron Paul would squash the two if polls were done now.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by eLPresidente

 

The last poll he was at 6% .. either way he's going to take a good portion of votes away from Romney.

BUT...... I'm sure the Diebold Machines will fix that.

If not, surely they can adjust your votes when they are counted by that Spanish company. We have called for them elsewhere, how about getting some UN election monitors here?

reply to post by RealSpoke


Realspoke, I generally don't have issue with your position on things. As a Libertarian, I am happy to let people do, think and act as they feel...that is what true Liberty and Freedom is...it's the individuals right to pursue their own way...not the voice of the collective.

I am going to suggest you learn more about Libertarians. There are a lot of people out there that "think" they know what Libertarianism stands for and actually have a mish-mash of truth and fiction.

Here is the 2012 Libertarian platform. THIS IS what the party stands for. Anything more or less is someone's applied opinion and is not fact...just because someone "thinks" that is what a party stands for does not make it so. The truth is in their platform.

The Libertarian Party Platform for 2012

And just for fun, here's a quick clip of the man that is representing that party.