American High School Band Marches with Hammer & Sickle

reply to post by wingsfan


Let me repeat:
I further don't see anything wrong with Communism/Socialism if the principals behind them are practiced soundly without abuse.

An additional disconnect many of you don't seem to have any realization regarding is that most of what you are attributing to the entirety of the former CCCP fell under the long shadow of Stalin.

Let's look at the Soviet leadership with dates showing time of leadership:

Vladimir Lenin 30 December 1922 - 21 January 1924 ( 2+ years)

Alexei Rykov 2 February 1924 - Disputed (~1 - 2 years)

Joseph Stalin Disputed - 5 March 1953 (~ 25 - 28 years)

Georgy Malenkov 5 March 1953 - 8 February 1955 (2 years)

Nikita Khrushchev 27 March 1955 - 14 October 1964 (~9 years)

Leonid Brezhnev 14 October 1964 - 10 November 1982 (18 years)

Yuri Andropov 12 November 1982 - 9 February 1984 (< 2 years)

Konstantin Chernenko 13 February 1984 - 10 March 1985 ( 1 year)

Mikhail Gorbachev 11 March 1985 - 25 December 1991 (> 5 years)

Further: On three occasions, between Lenin's death and Stalin's rise, Stalin's death and Nikita Khrushchev's rise to power, and between Khrushchev's fall and Leonid Brezhnev's consolidation of power in the government apparatus, a collective leadership known as the troika (meaning "threesome") governed the country, with no single individual holding leadership alone.

Stalin, of course, held the reins of power the longest and this nastiness that so many are attributing to the entirety of the CCCP is mostly attributed to him.
The majority of these horrible things many like to dance on the CCCP's grave about occurred under Stalin.

Give credit where credit is due.

Call Stalin a monster all you want.

CCCP and the Sickle and Hammer is another matter all together.

Additionally, another disconnect many of you seem quite fond of citing is Nazi Germany and Hitler.
Hmmm. Godwin's Law comes to mind

an argument made by Mike Godwin in 1990 that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler and the Nazis. Godwin's law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread Reductio ad Hitlerum
The Reductio ad Hitlerum attempts to refute a view because it has been held by Hitler. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses, irrespective of whether it is appropriate or not. Precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact

You may wish to practice some due diligence regarding the Nazi Regime as being (relatively) short lived and primarily the responsibility of ONE LEADER.

I'm pretty certain the CCCP as cited above have more than one leader, where most of what everyone seems so happy to attribute to the damnation of the entire CCCP falls under the responsibility and direct culpability of one certain fairly long-termed leader; Joseph Stalin.

Joseph Stalin represented the Sickle and Hammer of the CCCP, but, the Sickle and Hammer of the CCCP, as much as Stalin may have wanted it to, did not represent Joseph Stalin, not near as much as anyone's ignorant Nazi/Germany/Hitler arguments.

Give credit where credit is due.

Originally posted by NavyDoc
Actually, you are quite wrong. America does not celebrate its slave owning past. You talk about wiping out entire cultures. THe Marxists wiped out entire cultures and entire regions of people. Not over hundreds of years but in a few years. Killed millions of people in a single episode. How can you find any sort of moral equivalency? Let me ask again, do you not have a probelm with Nazism, or do you only not have a problem with genocide if it is done by Marxists?

See my previous post.
The CCCP didn't celebrate any of the horrible things done by Stalin either.

I can find moral equivalency quite easily.

The abuse and exploitation of people, in any numbers whether a single person, or millions is both equal and entirely intolerable.

The CCCP and the Sickle and Hammer are not representative of murder and exploitation of people, though such occurred under the banner.

Stalin, yes, but the Sickle and Hammer, no.

Gulags and psych prisons and murder and political prisoners and no basic freedoms existed and freedom movements were crushed with violence under all of those leaders. Stalin was just the biggest one, but they all abused their people. The Hammer and Sickle represented slavery and oppresion from the moment it was contrived to the moment it was tossed upon the ash-heap of history. A lot of my family lived and died under communism and those of us who survive find that symbol as offensive as a Jew would the Swastika. They mean the same thing.

"Goodwin" is a silly rule made up by someone who could not make an intelligent debate. You say that the Soviets get a pass at their concentration camps because the US did some bad things too. By that silly moral equivalancy, you should present that same opinion for other totalitarian regimes. You cannot do so because that would be too consistent.

All I see are the machinations of a fellow traveller who wants to defend communism at all costs, even if logic, history , and consistency need be abandoned.

Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by NavyDoc
Actually, you are quite wrong. America does not celebrate its slave owning past. You talk about wiping out entire cultures. THe Marxists wiped out entire cultures and entire regions of people. Not over hundreds of years but in a few years. Killed millions of people in a single episode. How can you find any sort of moral equivalency? Let me ask again, do you not have a probelm with Nazism, or do you only not have a problem with genocide if it is done by Marxists?

See my previous post.
The CCCP didn't celebrate any of the horrible things done by Stalin either.

I can find moral equivalency quite easily.

The abuse and exploitation of people, in any numbers whether a single person, or millions is both equal and entirely intolerable.

The CCCP and the Sickle and Hammer are not representative of murder and exploitation of people, though such occurred under the banner.

Stalin, yes, but the Sickle and Hammer, no.

The Hammer and Sickle was a symbol of oppression from Lenin until the fall of the iron curtain. Soviet communists terrorized and abuse the people of Russia and Eastern Europe for 75 years. Did Stalin put up the Berlin wall? Run tanks through Hungary to crush the freedom movement?

Staliln is still celebrated in the former soviet union. Usually by young people to young to remember how much the Soviets sucked and some old time hardcore Marxists. Everybody else there is quite glad the Soviet Union is no more.

reply to post by NavyDoc


You're welcome to your opinion, as am I.

All human abuse and exploitation is intolerable.

The Slavery enacted and enforced upon the people through the illusion of what's been sold as Capitalism is far more deceptive than you know.

No one gets a free pass for atrocities, abuse, and exploitation of its people. Across the board, all nations who have participated in the exploitation and abuse of their people need be held accountable.

You confuse my meanings as viewed through your bias-colored glasses.

Originally posted by HostileApostle
Why must we always demonize other cultures?

Why must we always have such idiotic sentiments on ATS? Staling killed over 20 MILLION people. You don't see marching bands go marching with SS or swaztikas do you? After all, Hitler only killed 6 million...

Communism isn't a culture. Most Russians will agree with you there. I have several Russian friends, many have a strong hatred towards Communist Russia for what they did to their loved ones.

So in the future, I'd suggest reading WHY some things (like the hammer and sickle) shouldn't be used.

reply to post by Auricom


I'm genuinely puzzled over these so called friends people keep citing in claim that they vilify their own former nation.

I'm decent close friends with at least a dozen or more Russians, most ex-soviet, over a wide range of Russian 'ethnicity', with Tatar, Jew, Muslim, Orthodox, Christian, Atheist, Muscovite, Georgian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, and more.

Some of these have multiple citizenship, and own homes back in Russia, and, typically more often than not, when the CCCP days are mentioned, they're mentioned out of respect of how factor X was so much better than in America, where factor X involves things like public transport, community, child public safety from predators, crime, parks and public recreation, education system, and the list goes on.

I don't know who you people are talking to or claiming to have talked to, but, the former Soviets I know don't say much in bad light regarding the CCCP days, When they do bring it up, it's as stated, a comparison to what's now, and how the CCCP system was better.

Perhaps it's the class of people I'm fiends with; all of them professional, highly educated, very capable and intelligent people?

reply to post by Druscilla


Yeah, I'm friends with a lot of Russians too (being Orthodox), some of whom were threatened with losing their jobs and spots in educational programs for just being seen near a church or synagogue. One man in my parish is ex-KGB. He's got some hair-raising stories. One lady in my parish (now passed on) was just a child when she witnessed her father (a priest) being murdered by the Communists in front of his own parish. Russians tend to love their culture and immigrants are quite nostalgic. That's not the same thing as loving the Soviet Union. Many came over because of religious persecution. Have any of your friends told you stories about being forced to go to Party meetings? How everything had to look perfect on paper even when reality was more bleak? How you'd be assigned a condo in a new building on the seventh floor, only to find out after moving in that you didn't have running water? How you'd have to go to the next building over to get water everyday? How it was never fixed because according to the records it had running water so there was no problem? How parents were not allowed to visit their own children in the hospital if they were there for an extended period of time? How entire families would never be given international passports just to go on vacation somewhere? Seriously, nostalgia aside, it wasn't all that.

Not one Russian I know wants to have the Soviet days back.

Anyway- lots of misinformation on this thread about the Soviet Union. Here's a great website that includes primary sources and goes through the history. It's chock full of information.

www.soviethistory.org...

Gospodi Pomiluj!

ETA: And the band director had to have known that this would cause an issue. There's no way she couldn't have known.

reply to post by Druscilla


Honestly, I think you're pulling your info out of the air. Sorry, but Russians that lived under the Soviets had a #ty life. My friend, he's sixty something and migrated to America in the late 50's with his family. Plenty of his loved ones were taken by the Soviet police and put into gulags. He and his family has NOTHING good to say about Soviet Russia.

Russia was a place (and in still many instances) where you're guilty until proven innocent. It was a place where you couldn't get gas to go to work. It was just a horrible, horrible place. And the "Russian friends" you claim to have must never have actually lived under Soviet rule. Honestly, I think you're a closet Communist trying to defend the use of the hammer and sickle.

But hey, who cares right? If they have the right to do something this offensive I'm going to make sure my Eurasian daughter gets to wear a t-shirt with a swaztika on it. How can that be offensive? It's part of our "culture" seeing our German lineage.

Now I'm hearing weepy sad stories about poverty conditions, similar to stories I'm hearing in America regarding problems associated with the economy, unemployment, and attempts to find work..

People can't even drive a Google map car once they do get a job without getting guns pointed at them.

Handicap amputees can't go through life without fear of being killed by cops.

I've lost track of how many "police kill home owner's dog" threads have popped up here on ATS.

What about "Woman calls 911 and gets shot by responding deputy?"

Does anyone remember the OWS movement, police brutality, and other fiascos associated with it?
Seems now the OWS movement is conspicuously no so all that important any more?

We can then get into conspiracy topics, like;
voting fraud, and political shenanigans concerning the ATS political favorite Ron Paul.
Chem-trails
Flouride in the water (ever see a Commie drink a glass of water? )
Secret underground military bases (like Dulce) in which the spooky American shadow government allows people to be abducted by evil Aliens to have horrific medical experiments done on them.
HAARP
Reptilians controlled by Masons controlled by Demons in American government where they all go have boy sex at Bohemian grove.
FEMA camps
Homeland Security
TSA nude x-ray machines
The government is using your own cell phones to spy on you, plus omg CCTVs.
False flag prediction, false flag prediction, false flag prediction so the NWO can happen.

I wonder if I look at members' post histories in this thread, how many can be found jibbering like Chicken Little, running around in circles, flapping their hands in an outraged righteously indignant fear mongering tizzy over one, if not several of the topics I've listed above?

Hmmm.
This should prove interesting.

Originally posted by Signals
Ignorance is alive and well on ATS, this thread proves it....

Yup,


Chuck Norris steps in to stop the creep of Socialism. Looks like someone is pushing an agenda.

Oh Noes!!!! They're spraying us!! Here's proof


I'm so disillusioned, disenfranchised, self marginalized and delusionally paranoid about the government I deleted my Facebook so please give me attention and a hug.


Let's fight American Tyranny! Rawr!


The first moments of WWIII - Fear mongering anyone? Really?


McVeigh was really a US Soldier which means ... da-da- duuuummmm, Amerika blowed itself up in Oklahoma!


Yup. America is just fine. Uh-huh.
It would seem demonizing and vilifying your own government is a-okay, just so long as someone else doesn't do it, and just so long as they aint not one of them thar bastid gawdless Commies cuz Commies is un'merikan.

reply to post by Druscilla


Nice deflection from the topic.
You should read the link I posted when you get the time.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by Auricom

 

I'm genuinely puzzled over these so called friends people keep citing in claim that they vilify their own former nation.

I'm decent close friends with at least a dozen or more Russians, most ex-soviet, over a wide range of Russian 'ethnicity', with Tatar, Jew, Muslim, Orthodox, Christian, Atheist, Muscovite, Georgian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, and more.

Some of these have multiple citizenship, and own homes back in Russia, and, typically more often than not, when the CCCP days are mentioned, they're mentioned out of respect of how factor X was so much better than in America, where factor X involves things like public transport, community, child public safety from predators, crime, parks and public recreation, education system, and the list goes on.

I don't know who you people are talking to or claiming to have talked to, but, the former Soviets I know don't say much in bad light regarding the CCCP days, When they do bring it up, it's as stated, a comparison to what's now, and how the CCCP system was better.

Perhaps it's the class of people I'm fiends with; all of them professional, highly educated, very capable and intelligent people?

Perhaps they are descended from apparachnicks who got more priviliges than your average soviet citizen, or they are not old enough to truely remember, or they are being less then honest, or they were not permitted to leave the Soviet Union and really do not have a frame of reference to make that determination. One must realize that is was very difficult for a ranking party member to get travel permission and impossible for a regular person.

If your friends were the elite, they did have a better time of it than your average person.

Those members of my family that survived still live there. I love the Russian culture, grew up with the folklore (Babba Yaga is much cooler than Hansel and Gretel), and the food. This is not a commentary on the RUssian culture, but a commentary on a horrible and opressive political system.

What's with using "CCCP" all the time. You do know the cyrillic alphabet do you not? How would you pronounce "CCCP?"

Read through all the posts in this thread.

Know what I saw?

Patriotic Americans, who cannot admit to their own country's not so rosy history. Always defending or justifying whatever their country did, and rather attacking and pointing out the other countries shortcomings.

Druscilla makes some valid points in this thread, and clearly many can't seem to look at it objectively, blinded by their patriotism.

vvv

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep
Read through all the posts in this thread.

Know what I saw?

Patriotic Americans, who cannot admit to their own country's not so rosy history. Always defending or justifying whatever their country did, and rather attacking and pointing out the other countries shortcomings.

Druscilla makes some valid points in this thread, and clearly many can't seem to look at it objectively, blinded by their patriotism.

vvv

No, she spoke out of ignorance when it came to the Soviet Union. I did not see anyone defending the past mistakes of the United States, but addressing the silly notion that the US, or UK, or Sweden, or whomever is the same as one of the most brutal regimes in history due to past mistakes is not untoward. Any reasonable person would speak out if an 88 decided to come in here and start telling us that the Nazis were not so bad and pretty much like the UK or US. Same sort of issue.

What's wrong with celbrating the Russian revolution?

Is history bad?
This is not a big deal at all. Those who actually use their brain will understand.
A few will see Hammer and Sickle and think "OMG COMMIE!", but that just comes with the territory.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by spinalremain
What's wrong with celbrating the Russian revolution?

Is history bad?
This is not a big deal at all. Those who actually use their brain will understand.
A few will see Hammer and Sickle and think "OMG COMMIE!", but that just comes with the territory.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

History is very important and those who actually use their brain will recognize that the Russian Revolution ushered in one of the most brutal regimes in the 20th Century. It should no more be celebrated than the Beer Hall Putsch in Germany.

It was a lesson in history and a chance for a school to learn about another culture/era. "The People's Revolution", circa 1917. Why use fear-mongering to demonize the school over this? Besides, the best way to understand what happened to the Russian Revolution is to see it through their eyes. Could they have foreseen the rise of Stalin, the Soviets, or the evils of the Soviet party? Especially in the era of Nazism, all of which would occur decades later?

1917 was in many ways inspired by 1776, the American Revolution, or as Russians may have seen it, the first "People's" revolution. The American Revolution inspired the French Revolution, which by the way, was also incredibly bloody, even more so than the Russian Revolution of 1917.

I wonder why some people are so insecure in their beliefs that they have to attack any attempt to learn about other beliefs or historical events. These kids and this school are not "communist sympathizers", they are just learning history.

No offense, Signals, but I'd recommend turning off Faux News ANYTHING and start seeing the world with your own two eyes. Common man, you're smarter than this. It's a harmless marching band show performing some very rich and historical music. Marching band shows rely equally on visuals and music to make a show work. Having visuals from that time period makes the show more authentic. Take it for what it is (a learning experience), and leave the "Red Scare" stuff out of the equation. Last time I checked it wasn't the 1950's.



-TS

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Perhaps they are descended from apparachnicks who got more priviliges than your average soviet citizen, or they are not old enough to truely remember, or they are being less then honest, or they were not permitted to leave the Soviet Union and really do not have a frame of reference to make that determination. One must realize that is was very difficult for a ranking party member to get travel permission and impossible for a regular person.

If your friends were the elite, they did have a better time of it than your average person.

Those members of my family that survived still live there. I love the Russian culture, grew up with the folklore (Babba Yaga is much cooler than Hansel and Gretel), and the food. This is not a commentary on the RUssian culture, but a commentary on a horrible and opressive political system.

What's with using "CCCP" all the time. You do know the cyrillic alphabet do you not? How would you pronounce "CCCP?"

To give you a hint of the the Russians I know, as well as the general class of people I associate with of any culture, without getting too detailed, one of my friends worked in Baikonur, and after Perestroika before 1991, came to U.S. where he got similar job working in a city called Clear Lake, south of Houston, but usually referred to as 'Houston'.

Some people I know came to U.S. during/after Perestroika, and others after '91.

A common mistake with many people is in underestimating who they're talking with, as well as confusing the issues. You make hints that you ARE Russian or at least have family, but, this underestimation is very un-Russian. I'm continually called ignorant, yet, questions are asked of me that only show the ignorance of the questioner.

Have you considered how and why I might have a dozen or more Russian friends?
Have you considered that I might also speak, at the very least, a little Russian, if not actually quite a bit more?

Вы понимаете русский язык?
Vwe Ponimayatse russkii yazik?

Have you ever actually been to Russia?