Confused - Is The Muslim Video Really Making People Angry - It is a stupid video

I don't watch television so I get my news from the internet. I read many news sources each day and read how a video called the "Innocence of the Muslims" caused rioting and the killing of a well liked American ambassador to Libya. I then read and saw pictures of Muslims holding signs saying that they liked the ambassador and that this was not the way that Muslims acted. The story only keeps getting weirder. The man behind the film claims to have the name Sam Bacile (sounds like "some imbecile"). Is this whole things some sort of bizarre practical joke?

I was reading ATS tonight and saw the following thread. "Youtube user ties the Anti-Muslim video to...? Wow!!!" and the guy in the video was basically attempting to prove that the people behind the video were from a company that has ties to the military. He had a link to the original video and I went and watched it. I had never seen it before because, while I am a Christian, I never wanted to see a video that mocked another religious beliefs. I will sit and debate a Muslim or Jew any day; but, I would not ridicule their religious beliefs, heck I don't even mock Satanists. I have plenty of threads and posts and people like or dislike me; but, I have enough posts that if I took such an approach I would have been banned.

So where am I going with this? I watched the 20 minute "Innocence of Muslims" video and it was clearly the dumbest, most confused, poorly put together piece of garbage I have ever seen, it makes "Plan 9 from Outerspace" look like "Gone with the Wind". This is where the confusion comes in. This video under different names has been around for months, nobody cared because it was so stupid and bad. I wouldn't have even watched the whole thing if it was not for the publicity and claimed impact. I would like to know if anyone watched the whole thing prior to the publicity, I doubt it. If I were a Muslim and saw it, I would have laughed because it is so bad and stupid. If Muslims made a video about Jesus that was this horrible, I would laugh at it and I have to believe that most Muslims that saw the video didn't even bother watching the whole thing.

Lets think about this for a second. Muslim does not mean stupid and there are plenty of smart ones, many become engineers in the United States. There are Muslims that are horrid morons and there are people that claim to be christian and horrid morons. The vast majority of both religions barely believe anything. Now we find that the riots in Libya were planned in advance of the video and had nothing to do with it, I buy that. I don't believe this video is inciting any riots, those are being incited in other ways and for more general reasons, the video is being hyped to hide those reasons, the real incitement.

I am the perfect person to raise this issue, I am a known Christian on this site and have debated many. I am a pacifist and have said so. You can call me an idiot for believing in God; but, you cannot say that I say anything that is pro violence. I rarely get into political discussions on this site. I do not regularly post in the Conspiracy threads, I don't do it. I am not buying what I am being told, I don't believe 99% of Muslims would waste their time watching the dumbest anti-Muslim video in history. I will debate the history of Mohammed and their religion (not in this thread); but, you know what, a Muslim cleric or knowledgeable believer would not be upset with dealing with my questions. It would not be the first time that they had heard them. There is nothing new in that video and there are many questions that are a lot harder for Muslims to answer (not looking to debate them here).

If I were Muslim, I would not have wasted my time watching the video and I certainly would not have gotten that upset, my reaction would have been "That is a stupid video and shows how little westerners understand our religion and our prophet". Now a personal statement and you can read all my old posts and check this. I have never been attacked on this site by someone proclaiming to a Muslim that I recall. Not one time and I have been attacked by many, primarily atheists and other people who call themselves christians. Think about this, there are Muslims on this site, how many problems do they cause, I have not seen it.

I have probably just made some Muslim friends and lost some christians; but, think about what I said and see if it isn't true. I do not know if the guy claiming this was all orchestrated by the government is correct; but, I don't believe the Muslim world would see this as anything other than just plain stupid. Yeah, one more thing to consider. The largest population of Muslims, they are not Arab, they are Asian.

To all my brothers and sisters that are believers and non-believers, let us not have stupidity and lies cause division. Let us divide over something meaningful. The attack that we are witnessing is on free speech; but, more importantly this is being used to show anyone that believes in God in a bad light. Pull up my threads where I attacked Islam, you cannot as there are none. I have known Coptics that hated Muslims because of the persecution they faced. One of my friends that was Egyptian hated his country, he was a Coptic. They through his brother off a balcony to his death for loving a Muslim girl or so he told me. There is Sharia law and it is tough and brutal; but, that doesn't mean that they are stupid. Nowhere in Muslim law does it say to kill someone because someone else made fun of their religion. Think about it. They did not believe that the ambassador to Libya made that movie, they believed he loved them and their country.

My take on this video, for what it is worth, is that it is a pretext, it is a lie and garbage and the publicized response is equally a lie.

reply to post by AQuestion


Agree that video is a joke it had nothing to do with the attacks and if the white house wouldnt have brought it up it would have never got watched THANKS GOVERMENT for making this 911 attack worse then it need to be.

reply to post by AQuestion
You'll get nowhere in life being moderate, thoughtful and reasonable! I say we go and the kick the face off moderates and fence-sitters right now. Cowardly SoBs!

You're either with us...or against us!

To have extremists and drama-queens we have to have a larger middle-ground of reasonable, intelligent people. These are the people who keep the general peace in their countries whilst the crazies go OTT over whatever their media or political system is throwing at them.

'OMG! I must destroy my neighbour's car because somebody in America has disrespected my God!' The moderate person realises a video cannot harm their faith or society. The extremist, however, can do both.

What's important is that moderates try and ease these situations and temper the extremists' views. Preferably even swing some back over to the real world. After all, we have perpetual examples of nations being lead by extremists and they corrode society.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Nowhere in Muslim law does it say to kill someone because someone else made fun of their religion. Think about it. They did not believe that the ambassador to Libya made that movie, they believed he loved them and their country.

My take on this video, for what it is worth, is that it is a pretext, it is a lie and garbage and the publicized response is equally a lie.

I agree. Someone has an agenda and someone, more than one person or group of people are pulling the strings of everyone else.

But their Muslim Law does say,

13. Blasphemy laws, including imprisonment or execution, may be imposed on critics of Islam or Muhammad.

These verses should be read in historical sequence, for they show that as Islam’s military power increased, the harsh treatment of mockers and critics also intensified, as follows: Quran 3:186, 33:57-61, 9:61-66, 9:73 and 9:123. Sacred traditions, classical laws, and historical Islam are unambiguous about the punishments, recording the people, often their names, who were assassinated for mocking Muhammad and the Quran.

www.jihadwatch.org... - Thirty Shariah Laws That Are Bad For All Societies

So your statement " Nowhere in Muslim law does it say to kill someone because someone else made fun of their religion." is clearly false.

This is The problem. Americans don't have much of a clue what Muslim Law says. This one is mild in comparison to many in that list. Do all Muslims adhere to these things? No, this is true fundamentalist Muslim beliefs just as many Christians, say the Baptists don't believe the same as the more extreme Pentecostals.

You might be interested in the thread in my sig file that tells of new American laws adopted by some cities that make it illegal for Muslim law to be used in American courts.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Dear Kandinsky,

You are a moderator, you can talk to other moderators and people can read my posts, you know, I say what I mean and I mean what I say. People like me and don't, so what. I do not believe I have interacted with you before and like your sarcasm.

What's important is that moderates try and ease these situations and temper the extremists' views. Preferably even swing some back over to the real world. After all, we have perpetual examples of nations being lead by extremists and they corrode society.

I do not seek to ease anything, I seek to spotlight stupidity and lies. I would love to get into a discussion of the history of Islam; but, it would be a real discussion and they would be more than welcome to question my beliefs. The extremists can never win when the majority say they will not participate in stupidity. If I get in a disagreement with a Muslim, we are going to get down on history and consistency, a joke will not disprove a belief. Cute comments and propaganda will not disprove Islam and anyone that understood their religion would laugh at this stupid video. Read one of my recent posts on how stupid people were to claim that Jesus had a wife basing their bias on some stupid 2nd to 4th century gnostic claim. If someone wanted to convert a Muslim, this is the last video they would use, it is stupid and deserves no concern.

There are extremist Muslims and extremist christians, 99% of the people ignore them. You always have a few morons that are extremist; but, they never get anywhere, they have to be supported by the majority or a strong and committed minority. Hard to do that with extreme stupidity as was shown in the video. We are not fighting Muslims, we are fighting Arabs they want us to leave them alone. I come from a military family, two of them have Bronze stars, one should have got the Congressional medal of honor and I am a pacifist. My family has double digit tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Why are we at war with Arabs rather than Muslims, the Arab Muslims have the oil and that is the only reason. We couch it in terms of religion to hide the real reason, it is about oil. We do not care about African, Russian or Asian Muslims, they don't have the same thing to offer. War is about money, not religion, that is the lie that the suckers buy into. Follow the money. Peace.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by AQuestion
Nowhere in Muslim law does it say to kill someone because someone else made fun of their religion. Think about it. They did not believe that the ambassador to Libya made that movie, they believed he loved them and their country.

My take on this video, for what it is worth, is that it is a pretext, it is a lie and garbage and the publicized response is equally a lie.

I agree. Someone has an agenda and someone, more than one person or group of people are pulling the strings of everyone else.

But their Muslim Law does say,

13. Blasphemy laws, including imprisonment or execution, may be imposed on critics of Islam or Muhammad.

These verses should be read in historical sequence, for they show that as Islam’s military power increased, the harsh treatment of mockers and critics also intensified, as follows: Quran 3:186, 33:57-61, 9:61-66, 9:73 and 9:123. Sacred traditions, classical laws, and historical Islam are unambiguous about the punishments, recording the people, often their names, who were assassinated for mocking Muhammad and the Quran.

www.jihadwatch.org... - Thirty Shariah Laws That Are Bad For All Societies

So your statement " Nowhere in Muslim law does it say to kill someone because someone else made fun of their religion." is clearly false.

This is The problem. Americans don't have much of a clue what Muslim Law says. This one is mild in comparison to many in that list. Do all Muslims adhere to these things? No, this is true fundamentalist Muslim beliefs just as many Christians, say the Baptists don't believe the same as the more extreme Pentecostals.

You might be interested in the thread in my sig file that tells of new American laws adopted by some cities that make it illegal for Muslim law to be used in American courts.

edit on 22-9-2012 by JohnPhoenix because: sp

I do not usually take complete quotes anymore; but, I took yours. Where did it say that they could kill anyone for the thoughts of others. You did not prove that. I did not say that did not believe it was okay to kill people that ridiculed them, I asked if it said that they could kill someone who did not ridicule them because someone else had.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I did not say that did not believe it was okay to kill people that ridiculed them, I asked if it said that they could kill someone who did not ridicule them because someone else had.

As you read through that list and it's references you will realize that once a group of Muslims go on a Jihad - A holy crusade to make things "right" based on their laws, they will often use this as an excuse to attack all members of that offenders race around them. Many of those laws show examples of this action.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by AQuestion
I did not say that did not believe it was okay to kill people that ridiculed them, I asked if it said that they could kill someone who did not ridicule them because someone else had.

As you read through that list and it's references you will realize that once a group of Muslims go on a Jihad - A holy crusade to make things "right" based on their laws, they will often use this as an excuse to attack all members of that offenders race around them. Many of those laws show examples of this action.

Dear JohnPhoenix,

Where do they in their holy book claim the right to kill innocents, under their rules? I will tell Muslims the problems I have with their religion; but, none have ever asked me. Muslims ignore me. No Muslim has ever attacked me on this site, or they have, show me where they have. Prove to me that they argued and riot with non-believers. I know that Islam means peace by having ending all opposition, yet, they have never attacked me and I am pretty much out there in believing in Jesus. I completely disagree with their religion and yet they do not attack me, why not?

reply to post by AQuestion

Why are we at war with Arabs rather than Muslims, the Arab Muslims have the oil and that is the only reason. We couch it in terms of religion to hide the real reason, it is about oil. We do not care about African, Russian or Asian Muslims, they don't have the same thing to offer. War is about money, not religion, that is the lie that the suckers buy into. Follow the money. Peace.

Yeah, when the War on Terror was framed in religious terms, it raised the temperature and directed most people's attention away from the politics of power. Quite probably, it pissed in the pool of intelligent debate and has left the stability of the world teetering. That isn't to imply that the US is solely responsible, not at all, but it allowed for the Middle Eastern extremists to foment religious passions in more of their own people too. Your distinction between Arab and Muslim is well-taken and overlooked by most people.

The motivations of Middle Eastern groups isn't always clear to us. One that shows this lack of information is from way back before 9/11. We were told the Taliban had blown up the Buddhist statues for malice and pro-Islamic reasons. Thus we infer Muslims are destructively anti-cultural, anti-Buddhist and have no regard for history. Not quite the whole story as you'll see here.

Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by AQuestion
I did not say that did not believe it was okay to kill people that ridiculed them, I asked if it said that they could kill someone who did not ridicule them because someone else had.

As you read through that list and it's references you will realize that once a group of Muslims go on a Jihad - A holy crusade to make things "right" based on their laws, they will often use this as an excuse to attack all members of that offenders race around them. Many of those laws show examples of this action.

Dear JohnPhoenix,

Where do they in their holy book claim the right to kill innocents, under their rules?

I completely disagree with their religion and yet they do not attack me, why not?

I can tell you didn't read through that whole link yet. You answers are in there. They can kill innocents for many reasons. As for why they didn't attack you.. You have to understand and make the distinction there are two factions of Muslims, the good Muslims, and the extreme Muslims. The good Muslims wont fight with you because they know that's silly, the Extremists will if you give them reason enough. By your own admission, you are a pacifist someone who doesn't rock the boat, that's why they haven't bothered with you yet.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix

You have to understand and make the distinction there are two factions of Muslims, the good Muslims, and the extreme Muslims.

Are you sure about this? It seems rather black and white.

Middle Eastern societies are way more than good/bad Muslims. They are built from families that are part of clans and rival other clans or ally other clans. Semi-tribal customs are wound up within these clans and families. These can be limited to regions or connect to other clans across regions or in neighbouring countries. The clans can be further defined by which sect of Islam they believe in. You may or may not know that regional and religious differences are rife across Middle Eastern society.

Interesting article about clans.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Dear JohnPhoenix,

LOL.

I can tell you didn't read through that whole link yet. You answers are in there. They can kill innocents for many reasons. As for why they didn't attack you.. You have to understand and make the distinction there are two factions of Muslims, the good Muslims, and the extreme Muslims. The good Muslims wont fight with you because they know that's silly, the Extremists will if you give them reason enough. By your own admission, you are a pacifist someone who doesn't rock the boat, that's why they haven't bothered with you yet.

Which are you lazy or not too bright? Read my prior threads, do you really believe I am afraid to rock the boat, too many atheists are laughing at you. I am not new to this site. You did not respond to what I asked, I have given extremists many reasons to argue with me. My gosh, yes, I believe that extremist Muslims will kill me, lol. Am I to assume they are afraid of me because I am a pacifist? Is there any sense in you? I shall help you and you will still lose.

Dear Arab Muslims, I do not believe that Mohammed was God's prophet, I believe Jesus Christ was God's spirit on this earth, living a human existence so he could show that he understood our weaknesses and forgave us for being imperfect. Will you kill me for such a belief, it is against the Koran and I know this.I was born into a Christian family. Let us see how many of the Muslims on this site say I should die for asking them and raising issues, my guess is none and they have never threatened me in the past and I am pretty clear on what I believe. Let us see if they threaten me now, I bet nobody of Muslim beliefs that has anytime on ATS will. The video is garbage and the Muslims know it is.

Originally posted by Donttreadonus
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Agree that video is a joke it had nothing to do with the attacks and if the white house wouldnt have brought it up it would have never got watched THANKS GOVERMENT for making this 911 attack worse then it need to be.

Please please grow up. The video being publisized has NOTHING to do with the fact that the islamic religion and its hardcore followers are nothing but cretins. Low-life scum. They have killed, looted and rioted because of an extremely FUNNY video, YET the fact mohammed was pedophile sits nicely with them.

You can not blame anyone but those primitive losers for their reaction. Civilized people do NOT react like that over any kind of video about some BS religion.

SO in this instance the Government is NOT to blame. ONLY blame the Islamic animals.

There are SO MANY threads discussing exactly this- why didn't you just pop in to one of those??

Of course there is much more going on than is being openly acknowledged.
There are all kinds of power plays between nations, between peoples..... all kinds of tensions building up in populations, leaders of groups manipulating that energy....

Sometimes when someone is grouchy, or filled with pent up anger or frustration, it takes very little to set them off.
This is why leaders of peoples have it in their best interest to create a sense of discontent or emotional upset (fear, anger). This gives an underlying momentum that is easier to canalize and stear whatever way you point it.

This is why, for example, horseback riders learn that a horse who is a bit emotional and reactional is better. There is nothing harder to control than an apathetic low energy horse. You have to kick and pound to get them to do anything.
People are the same- keep them scared and/or angry (at anything) and all you have to do is a subtle point in any direction and they are like putty in your hands with an amazing amount of flexibility.

reply to post by AQuestion


The problem is that the content and quality of the video is actually irrelevant, except for the fact that Mohammed is portrayed. He doesn't even have to be portrayed negatively in order to be offensive to muslims... Islamic religion bans the portrayal of Mohammed in any form.

In fact, Muslims have rioted before over far, far less.

I think it's also probable that many of the rioting muslims haven't even seen the video themselves.
What you're neglecting to take into account is that Muslims have a textual mandate and divine imperative to hate the West, and come from a religion built upon a bedrock of violence.

...this was just waiting to happen... and will happen again.
...and when it does... people will post incredulously in forums just like this one, just like they did when Theo Van Gogh was killed, or when the cartoons were published in Denmark in 2005. And once again, people will push the "it's just an extreme minority" PC line, despite the fact that numerous polls have established widespread support for violence in support of Islam among muslim communities across the world.

So in essence?
Yes. The video is really making people angry... because they are slaves to a system that demands violence, is built on violence, and is itself perpetuated and advanced through violence.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

You have to understand and make the distinction there are two factions of Muslims, the good Muslims, and the extreme Muslims.

Are you sure about this? It seems rather black and white.

Middle Eastern societies are way more than good/bad Muslims. They are built from families that are part of clans and rival other clans or ally other clans. Semi-tribal customs are wound up within these clans and families. These can be limited to regions or connect to other clans across regions or in neighbouring countries. The clans can be further defined by which sect of Islam they believe in. You may or may not know that regional and religious differences are rife across Middle Eastern society.

Interesting article about clans.

What you are saying then is that the Muslim mind set and how they view their religious practices can be complex based on their regional tribal or clan histories. I would never argue such a point. It matters not even though this may be true. The only criteria I am concerned with is if that Muslim is going to use his beliefs to justify harming others. Therefore, yes, it is black and white.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix
You're making it black and white because that's how you want it to be.

The West has had a physical presence in the ME every day of the past century. We've toppled regimes and supported others. We've made war after war with various nations and destabilised those that weren't favourable to Western politics or trading opportunities. Thousands have died.

That's played a bigger part in the current Muslim animosity than these few words in the Koran.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Dear JohnPhoenix,

LOL.

I can tell you didn't read through that whole link yet. You answers are in there. They can kill innocents for many reasons. As for why they didn't attack you.. You have to understand and make the distinction there are two factions of Muslims, the good Muslims, and the extreme Muslims. The good Muslims wont fight with you because they know that's silly, the Extremists will if you give them reason enough. By your own admission, you are a pacifist someone who doesn't rock the boat, that's why they haven't bothered with you yet.

Which are you lazy or not too bright? Read my prior threads, do you really believe I am afraid to rock the boat, too many atheists are laughing at you. I am not new to this site. You did not respond to what I asked, I have given extremists many reasons to argue with me. My gosh, yes, I believe that extremist Muslims will kill me, lol. Am I to assume they are afraid of me because I am a pacifist? Is there any sense in you? I shall help you and you will still lose.

Dear Arab Muslims, I do not believe that Mohammed was God's prophet, I believe Jesus Christ was God's spirit on this earth, living a human existence so he could show that he understood our weaknesses and forgave us for being imperfect. Will you kill me for such a belief, it is against the Koran and I know this.I was born into a Christian family. Let us see how many of the Muslims on this site say I should die for asking them and raising issues, my guess is none and they have never threatened me in the past and I am pretty clear on what I believe. Let us see if they threaten me now, I bet nobody of Muslim beliefs that has anytime on ATS will. The video is garbage and the Muslims know it is.

Lovely. We go from astute Christian to insulting me simply because I attempted to answer your question based on the information given in this thread. No wonder so many people are against Christians. You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension to. I implied to you that the Extremist Are Not afraid of you because you are a pacifist. You may rock the boat in your own way as shown by your previous posts which I have no knowledge of, but by your admission, you only debate religious theology. You do not create cartoons of Muhammad for example that show him in a bad light. You don't in their minds, go out of your way to insult them.

As you now wish to be argumentative ( by your own admission you are trying to win an argument) instead of participating in a reasonable discussion, I do not think as a Christian I can continue to fuel your angst. I am turning the other cheek, wiping the dust off my sandals and leaving the city.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

You're making it black and white because that's how you want it to be.

The West has had a physical presence in the ME every day of the past century. We've toppled regimes and supported others. We've made war after war with various nations and destabilised those that weren't favourable to Western politics or trading opportunities. Thousands have died.

That's played a bigger part in the current Muslim animosity than these few words in the Koran.

In the face of someone trying to kill you do you really believe people should stop and consider the complexities of the terrorists background before you decide your course of actions? My goodness man, you'd be long dead.
This is why I have said in many threads, it's not all Muslims, just an extreme faction of them who are the terrorists. Don't be a terrorist apologist. We need to be able to better identify a clear threat and not lump all Muslims together, then combat that threat before they do more harm in the name of extremism. So you want to it seems blame the US for the actions of the extremist? Tell me, has the US caused you to act in hate and relieved you of the responsibility of your actions at any time in your life? No.

O.k. Now I'm done. Keep your eyes open and watch your backs. Pray about it if you wish but don't let your guard down.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix
The creation of these extremists and terrorists has less to do with Sharia Laws than our own activities over in the ME.

'Terrorist apologist?'

What a joke. You want to ignore every other reason for Muslim or Arab terrorism and blame it all on the Sharia laws or Koran. Just because you can't understand something doesn't mean it isn't accurate. Koranic verse and Sharia Law have been around for 1400 years and yet the anti-Western terrorists have come along in the 20th Century.

The British occupied Basra, Qatar, Palestine, Libya and Bahrain in the 20th Century. The US got involved to strengthen NATO and keep the Soviets at bay. This is before oil became the focus and we began to install puppet governments and use the region as a security zone. Although it was a UN plan to partition Palestine, the US has had the brunt of the blame. Millions of Arabs were displaced in this process and given the fact it's within living memory....some are still a bit miffed. Now if we also remember how we backed dictatorships like Saddam Hussein and various Ayatollahs, you might just begin to accept that terrorists aren't created by a few words in the Koran.

I'm against any flavour of terrorism and I'm against your argument that history and politics have no influence on the activities of societies or terrorists.