An Open Letter to FDNY Firefighter John Schroeder from a debunker

Originally posted by totallackey
It takes a lot of movie making to make the jet fuel explode out of elevator doors a thousand feet below the level where most of it was already exploding and burning in a fireball.

Or you can just read the accounts of people that were there on the day. If you'd read the letter that forms the subject for this thread then you'd see there are many many accounts of this happening.

The initial fireball was limited by the oxygen in the air. Fuel that didn't burn was free to flow downwards as all liquids will. If you drop a thousand gallons of liquid on a high floor of a skyscraper, where do you think it will go? Probably the biggest openings in the floors that are the least protected right? The elevator shafts were protected by 2" of drywall and that is it. Easily smashed by a plane they formed hollow tubes essentially like straws penetrating down huge sections of the building.

There's huge amounts of evidence of these fireballs being jet fuel related, and none for any other source at all.

reply to post by exponent

You can estimate liquid volume inside a fireball? Nonsense BoneZ. That is all I can say to that, you're claiming supernatural abilities where none exist. Only a small proportion of the fuel could possibly have burned and we know that because people calculated it rather than guessing as you are.

According to the NIST Report in the EXECUTIVE SUMMARY, TABLE E-4 on pg xxvi, shows that nearly ALL THE JET FUEL was dispersed in the INITIAL IMPACT, outside the tower, 6700 lbs, and on floors 92 (810 lbs), 93 (6100), 94 (16100), 95 (12200), 96 (11700), 97 (9500), 98 (2200), and 99 (770). GO PEDDLE YOUR PAPERS ELSEWHERE.

Originally posted by totallackey
According to the NIST Report in the EXECUTIVE SUMMARY, TABLE E-4 on pg xxvi, shows that nearly ALL THE JET FUEL was dispersed in the INITIAL IMPACT, outside the tower, 6700 lbs, and on floors 92 (810 lbs), 93 (6100), 94 (16100), 95 (12200), 96 (11700), 97 (9500), 98 (2200), and 99 (770). GO PEDDLE YOUR PAPERS ELSEWHERE.

You realise you've just copied and pasted something that supports my point right? 40,000 lbs of fuel dumped onto a few skyscraper floors will undoubtedly flow to the lowest possible point.

How do you think this is disproving the idea that fuel would flow downwards and wasn't all consumed in the initial fireball?

reply to post by exponent


Can you read where the fuel was dispersed? Is English your fifth or sixth language or what? Proved your point? Read again!

Originally posted by totallackey
reply to post by exponent

 

Can you read where the fuel was dispersed? Is English your fifth or sixth language or what? Proved your point? Read again!

Do you think that elevator shafts aren't holes in floors? How exactly do you think this fuel didn't flow down to the lowest point? You just don't seem to be interested in thinking about what you posted at all!

Please provide an actual reason why this fuel would stay put when all other liquids flow.

reply to post by exponent

The elevator shafts were protected by 2" of drywall and that is it. Easily smashed by a plane they formed hollow tubes essentially like straws penetrating down huge sections of the building.

You are hallucinating. You have no proof for this statement. Elevator shafts have much more protecting them than 2 inches of drywall. Even the NIST report, as silly as that was, does not dare make this kind of imbecilic statement. You really need to go read some more.

reply to post by exponent


You are not reading. The fuel was dispersed and was already in a place where there was FIRE PRESENT!!!! What do you think happens when put combustible fuel into an area where there is already fire present!!! All of the fuel was dispersed in the total impact area and was consumed in the INITIAL FIREBALL!!! You, on the other hand, think it just SETS THERE and then, after hiding from the present fire, DUMPS down an elevator shaft a thousand feet and THEN DECIDES TO EXPLODE where there is NO FIRE!!! You really must be joking!!! Seriously dude or dudette...there is no point in discussing this with you because you HAVE ZERO CLUE about what you talking about...I have seldom seen such ignorance or purposeful obtuseness in posts. You think the elevator shafts were only protected by a two inch thick piece of DRYWALL! Sheer ignorance.

reply to post by exponent

How many times do we need to point out that only a fool would expect an acre wide fire caused by an airliner crash to have no additional sources of burning.

First I would like to ask you to please be very careful. Because I take that as a personal insult and as you know these are now completely prohibited here.

Secondary explosions are of course expected, simply opening a door can cause a 'secondary explosion' for reasons I can get into.

And please do get into what could possibly cause secondary explosions in the lobby long after the planes hit the buildings?

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by totallackey
reply to post by exponent

 

Can you read where the fuel was dispersed? Is English your fifth or sixth language or what? Proved your point? Read again!

Do you think that elevator shafts aren't holes in floors? How exactly do you think this fuel didn't flow down to the lowest point? You just don't seem to be interested in thinking about what you posted at all!

Please provide an actual reason why this fuel would stay put when all other liquids flow.

I don't really expect you to respond to this. But that was one hell of a fireball...

From the 9/11-Commission Report: "A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators. The fireball exploded onto numerous floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground." (ch.9, pg.285)

"Although dramatic, these fireballs did not explode or generate a shock wave. If an explosion or detonation had occurred, the expansion of the burning gasses would have taken place in microseconds, not the 2 seconds observed. Therefore, although there were some overpressures, it is unlikely that the fireballs, being external to the buildings, would have resulted in significant structural damage. It is not known whether the windows that were broken shortly after impact were broken by these external overpressures, overpressures internal to the building, the heat of the fire, or flying debris." (FEMA WTC report, chapter 2)

"Unfortunately, the individual was unaware of the condition of the 22nd floor, where critical communications hardware in the hidden security command center lay in ruins, likely preventing any building-wide public address announcements from reaching the occupants." (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, Chapter 6)

"When I got to the 22nd floor there was a lot of debris, everything was pushed to the center of the building. The windows were knocked out and I could feel the wind. I could not see. I got a radio transmission that everyone in Tower 1, get out." (NIST NCSTAR1-8, pg.106)

"8.47 a.m. WTC security radio report, PA Channel X - "...?...There is a fire on 22. 8.47 a.m. WTC security radio report, PA Channel X- "....?...on the 22nd floor a lot of debris." (NIST NCSTAR1-8, pg.194)

"9.54 a.m. WTC Vertical Transportation message indicates that an officer is located on floor 22, fire command center and that there is heavy traffic in the B stairway. The person indicates that they cannot release any emergency locked door due to fire and the loss of electrical power. (PA/WTC Vertical Transportation Radio CHannel Z)." (NIST-Progress Report June 04 -Appendix P, pg.35)

"8.47 a.m. WTC security reports that there is fire on floor 22 of WTC1 (PA/WTC Security Radio CHannel X). 8.49 a.m. WTC Security reports that there is damage and a lot of debris on floor 22 of WTC1 (PA/WTC Security Radio Channel X)." (NIST-Progress Report June 04 -Appendix P, pg.36)

"9.57 a.m. WTC Security: a report is received that an officer is responding to WTC 1 Fire Command and that he had been trying to contact the Command Center on floor 22, but they didn't know how to operate the other set of communication equipment. (PA/WTC Security Radio Channel X)." (NIST-Progress Report June 04 -Appendix P, pg.148)

"Firefighter Long on 22nd floor: We made it up to the 22nd floor. We stood there for a couple minutes. I believe Andy Desperito talked to the battalion through the fire warden phones. We did locate somebody at the end of the hall, but everything was blown out. The ceiling had fallen. The drop ceiling had blown to the floor. Some of the walls were blown out. So Andy and I had crawled down the hallway to get to the Port Authority command post."

Originally posted by totallackey
You are hallucinating. You have no proof for this statement. Elevator shafts have much more protecting them than 2 inches of drywall. Even the NIST report, as silly as that was, does not dare make this kind of imbecilic statement. You really need to go read some more.

The very report you are quoting describes it. If you don't believe that, here is someone who was trapped inside an elevator and literally cut through the drywall with a squeegee:

JAN DEMCZUR (Window Crew): Whatever you have, you have to try. And this particular time there was not brick or concrete or something, there was drywall.

Here is the squeegee used: americanhistory.si.edu...

You are not reading. The fuel was dispersed and was already in a place where there was FIRE PRESENT!!!! What do you think happens when put combustible fuel into an area where there is already fire present!!! All of the fuel was dispersed in the total impact area and was consumed in the INITIAL FIREBALL!!!

Again the report you quoted tells you that this did not happen. Fuel can only burn when there is oxygen available, and the oxygen available was consumed by the initial fireball. Only a small proportion of the fuel was consumed otherwise there would not be reports on almost every level of the towers of jet fuel smells and liquid dripping etc.

You, on the other hand, think it just SETS THERE and then, after hiding from the present fire, DUMPS down an elevator shaft a thousand feet and THEN DECIDES TO EXPLODE where there is NO FIRE!!! You really must be joking!!! Seriously dude or dudette...there is no point in discussing this with you because you HAVE ZERO CLUE about what you talking about...I have seldom seen such ignorance or purposeful obtuseness in posts. You think the elevator shafts were only protected by a two inch thick piece of DRYWALL! Sheer ignorance

The irony of this post is that you have clearly not read the NIST report, but quote from it when you think it supports your point. Why don't you tell us what protected the elevator shafts and cite your source?

Originally posted by maxella1
First I would like to ask you to please be very careful. Because I take that as a personal insult and as you know these are now completely prohibited here.

I apologise, I should perhaps have used a less pointed term. Regardless in any large fire there will be numerous sources for secondary explosions. Anything that can form a moderate pressure difference can explode, hell even drinks cans are known to explode in fires.

And please do get into what could possibly cause secondary explosions in the lobby long after the planes hit the buildings?

Jet fuel is the primary candidate as it is mentioned by several eye (and nose) witnesses, we know it was present in massive quantity and there is good evidence of sooting on videos of the day.

I don't really expect you to respond to this. But that was one hell of a fireball...

Indeed, but as you can see from the quote above there were gigantic quantities of fuel available for the fireball. If it was oxygen controlled then you would expect a significant distribution too. What other plausible source do you know of for fireballs occurring on multiple floors, smelling of jet fuel, causing sooting and many non fatal contact burn injuries but with little or no structural damage?

reply to post by exponent

The irony of this post is that you have clearly not read the NIST report, but quote from it when you think it supports your point. Why don't you tell us what protected the elevator shafts and cite your source?

I did not make the outrageous claim the elevator shafts were only protected by drywall. YOU DID! Prove it! While you are it, why don't you tell us about the characteristics of JET FUEL! Tell us what is necessary for explosions, ignition, flammability, etc. What is its nature? You will soon see, once you do some reading on this, you are writing with thumbs.

Originally posted by totallackey
I did not make the outrageous claim the elevator shafts were only protected by drywall. YOU DID! Prove it! While you are it, why don't you tell us about the characteristics of JET FUEL! Tell us what is necessary for explosions, ignition, flammability, etc. What is its nature? You will soon see, once you do some reading on this, you are writing with thumbs.

I did prove it. I quoted a person who escaped through the drywall and saved his life. Not quite sure what more you want than literal hands on experience from a survivor. I could show you the schematics and the quotes in NISTs reports if you'd like.

For jet fuel to ignite, it must be present in between around 0.5 and 5% saturation in air. It requires the presence of oxygen in proportion. If either of these are not matched appropriately, the fuel will not ignite. This is why once the initial fireball had subsided, there existed significant quantities of jet fuel remaining, as it then began to burn under the limited oxygen conditions of the tower. It would take around 10 minutes before all of the jet fuel was exhausted, and by that time a full scale office fire was well underway.

reply to post by exponent

Indeed, but as you can see from the quote above there were gigantic quantities of fuel available for the fireball. If it was oxygen controlled then you would expect a significant distribution too. What other plausible source do you know of for fireballs occurring on multiple floors, smelling of jet fuel, causing sooting and many non fatal contact burn injuries but with little or no structural damage?

What do you suppose destroyed the command center on the 22nd floor?

reply to post by exponent


There is steel and concrete also present in all express elevators. As a matter of fact, all the elevators were in the inner tubes, consisting of steel, concrete, and drywall. See here.

As you can see, only one elevator shaft ran the total height of the building, while others were local elevators, with one dedicated to go to the sky deck.

Originally posted by maxella1
What do you suppose destroyed the command center on the 22nd floor?

It seems likely that it was fire, whether through an explosive deflagration with jet fuel or some other mechanism. I don't see any likely-hood for a local structural collapse that went unnoticed from the outside and as far as I am aware almost everything points towards fire.

Why am I the only one providing actual answers here? Can you think of any other plausible mechanism for the destruction at lobby level?

Originally posted by totallackey
reply to post by exponent

 

There is steel and concrete also present in all express elevators. As a matter of fact, all the elevators were in the inner tubes, consisting of steel, concrete, and drywall. See here.

As you can see, only one elevator shaft ran the total height of the building, while others were local elevators, with one dedicated to go to the sky deck.

You're not refuting a single thing I said. You said it was ludicrous to believe that elevator shafts were walled with drywall and I provided you with the account of a person who dug through it with his hands. Would you like to apologise or retract your statements?

reply to post by exponent

Why am I the only one providing actual answers here? Can you think of any other plausible mechanism for the destruction at lobby level?

You know that I can... It could have been the most obvious thing that usually comes to mind When something is blown out in a building during a terrorist attack... A bomb for example. Especially when you have eyewitnesses civilian and professional firemen telling you that.
Here are a few of them that you have seen many times before.

It seems likely that it was fire, whether through an explosive deflagration with jet fuel or some other mechanism. I don't see any likely-hood for a local structural collapse that went unnoticed from the outside and as far as I am aware almost everything points towards fire.

It seems likely to you that fire caused

"Firefighter Long on 22nd floor: We made it up to the 22nd floor. We stood there for a couple minutes. I believe Andy Desperito talked to the battalion through the fire warden phones. We did locate somebody at the end of the hall, but everything was blown out. The ceiling had fallen. The drop ceiling had blown to the floor. Some of the walls were blown out. So Andy and I had crawled down the hallway to get to the Port Authority command post."

"When I got to the 22nd floor there was a lot of debris, everything was pushed to the center of the building. The windows were knocked out and I could feel the wind. I could not see. I got a radio transmission that everyone in Tower 1, get out." (NIST NCSTAR1-8, pg.106)

"Unfortunately, the individual was unaware of the condition of the 22nd floor, where critical communications hardware in the hidden security command center lay in ruins, likely preventing any building-wide public address announcements from reaching the occupants." (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, Chapter 6)

But you just claimed that

fireballs occurring on multiple floors, smelling of jet fuel, causing sooting and many non fatal contact burn injuries but with little or no structural damage?

I'm confused now... Can jet fuel fireball completely destroy a command center with bulletproof windows and fireproof doors?

Quote taken from nynewsday via Wayback Machine.. Paste this -//www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/wtc/ny-nyaler122362178sep12,0,6794009.story

"Security guard Hermina Jones said officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center."

"When the fire started, the room was sealed," said Jones, who was in the command center when explosions rocked the building. "Flames were shooting off the walls....We started putting wet towels under the doors. The Fire Department unsealed the door and grabbed us by the hand and said, 'Run!' "

Originally posted by maxella1
You know that I can... It could have been the most obvious thing that usually comes to mind When something is blown out in a building during a terrorist attack... A bomb for example. Especially when you have eyewitnesses civilian and professional firemen telling you that.

What sort of bomb would create large sooty fireballs that leave people with contact burns but no blast injuries? It seems only a hollywood gasoline bomb or jet fuel matches. If this is the case, why would anyone set off such a bomb on several different floors of the towers?

It seems likely to you that fire caused
...
But you just claimed that
...
I'm confused now... Can jet fuel fireball completely destroy a command center with bulletproof windows and fireproof doors?

Fireproof doors certainly, as they are little more than heavy doors that automatically close. Bulletproof windows I'm not so sure about. That's a quote I haven't heard before but I've never seen any documentation for renovations to install them.

Regardless of that specific claim, how would this even be carried out? The WTC was incredibly closely monitored by eyewitnesses in and around the area. Setting off a high explosive around the perimeter of floor 22 should be pretty obvious to everyone outside? I'm just trying to get a handle here on what you think happened and why.

reply to post by exponent


No. I will not retract it. There may only be drywall present at each front entrance/exit point where the doors open to allow entry/exit. But it is not a full accounting of all the materials present, including the steel doors which slide open and closed. You posted drywall like it is the only material there. This is absurd. Get back to us with the NIST statements which back this foolish claim. I will be here. I won't be holding my breath though. I would die of lack of oxygen.

For jet fuel to ignite, it must be present in between around 0.5 and 5% saturation in air. It requires the presence of oxygen in proportion. If either of these are not matched appropriately, the fuel will not ignite. This is why once the initial fireball had subsided, there existed significant quantities of jet fuel remaining, as it then began to burn under the limited oxygen conditions of the tower. It would take around 10 minutes before all of the jet fuel was exhausted, and by that time a full scale office fire was well underway.

What temperature does it ignite? What temperature source and spark triggered your fantasy-land depiction of events of fuel leaking 1000 feet down to lobby level? Why would the fires already taking place at impact point not make use of all available jet fuel as a source of fuel? Is it because the jet fuel was able to miraculously HIDE from the fire?

What hat did you pull the 10 minute figure from? Is the hat a deluxe model? Does it include a rabbit?