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When I read Manny Badillo's article about you, and saw Dylan Avery's video interview, I immediately knew that I could help you make sense of your 9/11 experience, because some of your misconceptions are very big and very basic.
I appeal to your intelligence and your honor and ask you to to distance yourself from these apologists for the terrorists who murdered your brothers and my neighbors.
Of things to note, he says that well after the first plane hit the north tower, elevators were exploding.
John Schroeder has expressed surprise (naturally) and perhaps some bewilderment, at what caused the man in the street and others in the north tower lobby to catch fire. From the Badillo article: "We first assembled on West Street, where we saw someone burnt beyond recognition. We were like ‘What is going on here?' "
Terrence Rivera, who had just gotten off duty and was outside Ten House talking to Schroeder when the north tower was hit, rode to the scene on the back step of Engine 10. He has this to say.:
"As I got off the back -- the back step, there were a few individuals that were civilians that were outside that were burnt. There was a -- he wasn't a regular security guard. He had a weapon on him. I don't know if he was FBI or Secret Service and he was trying to put the pants out on one individual that was conscious. His pants were still smoldering. I took the can, fire extinguisher off the truck and then sprayed down the pants on the person that was still conscious.
At that time, I had asked him where did this individual come from. He told me when the plane had hit, a fire ball had shot down the elevator shaft and had blown people out of the lobby."
Of things to note, he says that well after the first plane hit the north tower, elevators were exploding. He also states that while in a stairwell in the north tower, they got "bounced around like pin balls" from an explosion on the lower levels of the north tower while the second plane struck the south tower
Firefighter John Morabito of ladder 10, which is just 200 yards from the north tower.
“Just inside the front entrance, Morabito found two victims of the fireball. A man, already dead, was pushed against a wall, his clothes gone, his eyeglasses blackened, his tongue lying on the floor next to him. The other was a woman, with no clothes, her hair burned off, her eyes sealed.
“The woman, she sat up. I’m yelling to her, ‘Don’t worry, we’re going to help you,’” Morabito said. “She sat up and was trying to talk, but her throat had closed up. She died right there.” www.fdnytenhouse.com...
Mercedes Rivera: I saw a burned woman in a sitting position in the lobby, as if she was still typing behind a desk.... She was already dead.” .
Firefighter Peter Blaich
As we got to the third floor of the B stairway, we forced open an elevator door which was burnt on all three sides. The only thing that was remaining was the hoistway door. And inside the elevator were about I didn’t recognize them initially, but a guy from 1 Truck said oh my God, those are people. They were pretty incinerated. And I remember the overpowering smell of kerosene. That’s when Lieutenant Foti said oh, that’s the jet fuel. I remember it smelled like if you’re camping and you drop a kerosene lamp.
The same thing happened to the elevators in the main lobby. They were basically blown out. I do’nt recall if I actually saw people in there. What got me initially in the lobby was that as soon as we went in, all the windows were blown out, and there were one or two burning cars outside. And there were burn victims on the street there, walking around. We walked through this giant blown-out window into the lobby.
There was a lady there screaming that she didn’t know how she got burnt. She was just in the lobby and then next thing she knew she was on fire. She was burnt bad. And somebody came over with a fire extinguisher and was putting water on her.
That’s the first thing that got me. That and in front of one of the big elevator banks in the lobby was a desk and I definitely made out one of the corpses to be a security guard because he had a security label on his jacket. I’m assuming that maybe he was at a table still in a chair and almost completely incinerated, charred all over his body, definitely dead. And you could make out like a security tag on his jacket. And I remember seeing the table was melted, but he was still fused in the chair and that elevator bank was melted, so I imagine the jet fuel must have blown right down the elevator shaft and I guess caught the security guard at a table, I guess at some type of checkpoint
Originally posted by thedman
As for shaking he experienced when aircraft hit South Tower
Lets see - the aircraft impact reqistered on a seismograph 20 miles, so what do think someone only 100 ft away is going to feel
Mike Pecoraro... The 36 year-old father of two stopped and bought breakfast on the way into One World Trade Center and changed into his work clothes.
Deep below the tower,Mike Pecoraro was suddenly interrupted...
His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion... By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke.
The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.
"There was nothing there but rubble, "Mike said. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press, gone!"
The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. "There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything" he said.
They decided to ascend two more levels to the building's lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil" and lying on the floor. "They got us again," Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993... He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building... Mike ascended to the Lobby Level where he met Arti DelBianco, a member of his work crew.
He walked out into the main lobby of the building, seeing it for the first time.
"When I walked out into the lobby, it was incredible," he recalled. "The whole lobby was soot and black, elevator doors were missing. The marble was missing off some of the walls. 20-foot section of marble, 20 by 10 foot sections of marble, gone from the walls. The west windows were all gone. They were missing. These are tremendous windows. They were just gone. Broken glass everywhere, the revolving doors were all broken and their glass was gone."
Originally posted by CaptChaos
Also, if enough jet fuel poured down the thousand foot elevator shaft to cause a fireball that blew out the three inch thick windows in the lobby, well, that would have been about ALL the fuel in the plane. So then where did the fuel that caused the magical fires that caused a steel framed building to collapse for the first and only time in history come from? You know, the not all that flammable jet fuel that can make millions of tons of concrete turn instantly to dust?
Originally posted by maxella1
Another way of putting it would be " John I know you were there, but you're too stupid so let me explain what you lived through. Even though I wasn't there I know better so trust me and if you don't trust me you are with the terrorists who killed your brothers."
Originally posted by MrWendal
I love the OP's video at the 11:53 mark as they speak about debunkers and 9/11 "experts". Really no matter what side of the fence you sit on, it is a message for all of us. How can you watch it on TV and then tell this man what was happening right next to him?
The letter however does have some merit to it in the things that are pointed out. However it is always more about what people think happened. As I have said a million times over, the biggest mistake "truthers" make is trying to explain what exactly happened. The fact is, we don't know. It is a huge disservice to even attempt to come up with a theory. The only thing "truthers" really have to do is show that there are questions which have not been answered. That's it. If the goal is to get a real investigation, that's all you have to do. If there are any questions at all- the investigation is not complete. If there are any questions that have not been answered- the investigation is not complete.
On that point, it amazes me how even the "debunkers" or OS camp even admit there are questions remaining, but yet there is no need for an investigation and the "truthers" are insane because the investigation is complete. It just makes no sense to me.
Originally posted by r2d246
How did the buildings turn to dust and blow away in the wind?? That's the unanswered question. They were dustified! LOOK DUST EVERYWHERE! That doesn't happen in a normal collapse or controlled demolition!!! In those events the concrete breaks down in to boulder and rock sized pieces, NOT DUST.
but in this case where seeing like 80% of it turned to dust and was blown away by the wind. How can you explain that??? All the laws of physics in a collapsing structure cannot account for all that dust. It had to be some kind of energy weapon.
Originally posted by exponent
It's not a case of simply watching it on TV. There's been a decade of investigation and research, accounting and accounts. We know for example that people mentioned elevator explosions and jet fuel in extensive detail. Someone just arriving on site does not have that information and the letter is pointing out how immoral it was to not provide this information.
This is really not true though. This is the same logic that says because all transitional fossils haven't been found, then Evolution isn't the only possible answer. This is false for exactly the same reasons.
Just as Evolution is proven through incomplete evidence, it's clear that the principal facts of 911 are proven without complete evidence. We will never know the precise internal events in the towers, nor precisely the collapse mechanisms of every element. These unanswered questions however don't change the aggregate physics of the event. We know now that the speed of collapse is perfectly reasonable, we know that the initiation of collapse has a viable mechanism and evidence not explained by any other theory. There are many facts
I don't agree that "truthers" should avoid making claims, this is after all the basis of any theory. The problem is that people are near religiously obsessed with their individual claims. To such an extent that they will deny the existence of evidence in order to continue believing in them.
Originally posted by exponent
Originally posted by maxella1
Another way of putting it would be " John I know you were there, but you're too stupid so let me explain what you lived through. Even though I wasn't there I know better so trust me and if you don't trust me you are with the terrorists who killed your brothers."
Maxella,
I believe you were not at the site. Could you tell me in which order the towers collapsed? If an eyewitness contradicts you, who is wrong?
Originally posted by MrWendal
And how do you tell a man after a decade of research and investigation what was happening right next to him if you were not there? Fact is, you do not know, you were not there, you are not a witness.
Anything you offer is speculation and theory. If I tell you today that as I walked down the street a bird flew into my head knocking my glasses off into the street breaking them- how can you argue with me on the speed of the speed of the bird or the angle taken? You weren't there. You didn't see it. You do not know.
If the goal of the movement is to prove that a new investigation is needed, then all one must show is that the questions have not been answered. Fact is there are still many questions.
You have an Official report telling us what happened and then the highest Public Official in the country contradicting that same report on national TV. How does that happen? Were explosives used or weren't they?
your contradicting the President's own words.
Thank you for making my point. "Truthers" should not offer any theory at all, all they should be showing is that questions have not been answered, let the investigation provide the theory. Let the evidence tell the story.