The Accusations Are True ATS - I Do Have An Agenda And I Have Been Manipulating You! My Confession.

reply to post by sonnny1


Anymore it's not about being right or wrong, but convincing others that one is right or always right. I believe this too is tied to survival. People are often denied, called dumb or stupid when they make a mistake so they do whatever they can to avoid this form of denial. They will lie and manipulate their way to acceptance as much as they'll conform, they don't want others to think they're not worth keeping around.

reply to post by Hefficide


Quiet now........

Hes manipulated you, into a response.






How the reversals of the "hidden" agenda, has changed.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17


The intention makes all the difference in my mind. We are always effecting one another, but when this effect is natural there is no possibility of ill intention, when this effect is controlled by people there is a great chance that ill will may be involved. When you give someone your honest and true opinion this is natural, you are not trying to direct their actions as they are free to accept or deny your opinion, they are in control of themselves and you of yourself. When you attempt to punish someone for not accepting your opinion you are now trying to forcefully take control of their actions and beliefs. People are not terribly smart, we are not always right, when we control the actions of others we will, in many instances, lead them to folly even if we did not mean to.

reply to post by sonnny1




In my fantasy world there is an entire room of NSA folks who wait for me to post threads so they can break open a bottle of Jack and let off steam.

"HEY GUYS, HEFF POSTED! LET OPERATION TROLL HEFF COMMENCE!!!"



And, if so, good for them - they deserve fun just like the rest of us!

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by sonnny1

 

Anymore it's not about being right or wrong, but convincing others that one is right or always right. I believe this too is tied to survival. People are often denied, called dumb or stupid when they make a mistake so they do whatever they can to avoid this form of denial. They will lie and manipulate their way to acceptance as much as they'll conform, they don't want others to think they're not worth keeping around.

I think many people are Narcissists. I think actually, that plays into how manipulative some people actually are.

Yeah, Im kinda of treading into an area, I know nothing about, but I do feel the need to manipulate, has to come from maybe, how we evolved.

reply to post by Symbiot


Good points, for sure. I wonder if globalization and interconnectedness by nature reduces freedom? Let's face it, no one living the typical American childhood is coming out of it completely free of the promoted mind state. Mental tendancies and opinions are more and more based on mass media. Not sure if that violates the proposition of natural action being okay or not.

Many people now are promoting the agenda by extension, unknowingly.

reply to post by sonnny1


We learned from our parents and they learned from their parents. We've always had a fear of the unknown, in the early days I think when a person saw someone that was different they had a fear of unknown lifestyle and/or appearance. The immediate reaction was to keep this unknown person or lifestyle away, forcibly if necessary. Today this still applies, but I also think that much of this activity has become widespread not only out of fear, but out of the belief that "this is what my parents did so this is what I'll do."

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17


Personally I'm against all forms of control, mental or physical. I really wouldn't care if there were a government if I weren't physically and emotionally forced into obeying such government. Government should be optional, like I said people are not terribly smart and I think it's just plain unhealthy to follow any leader.

Edit: If I like your advice I'll probably take it, if I don't then I won't take it. That's not allowed today though, it doesn't matter if you like a police officer's advice or not, doesn't matter if you like a presidents advice or not, you will forcibly follow. At this point it's no longer considered advice, but 'law.' Law cooked up by human beings is, just an incredibly poor idea in my opinion. We're an infant race, have no idea where or what we are, we have no business making laws, we're not smart enough to know what should and should not be.

reply to post by Symbiot


The ironic thing there is that often times those who don't want to follow leaders end up being the leaders themselves, I think.

I disagree, though, that following is unnatural when looking at greater humanity. Evidence shows that many are starving for someone to follow.

The narcissist issue in this thread has actually fascinated me. In reality I have a LOT of self-esteem issues due to my PTSD. Over the years that has evolved to include severe social anxiety - along with a ton of self-doubt and ego issues. I cope with them well enough but tend to be extremely humble.

So reading, quite a number of times in this thread, what an egomaniac or narcissist I am has been something of a shock and entertainment for me.

Then again, I am actually fairly bright and most people in my real life tend to turn to me for help with problems and sometimes will say things like "You're the most insightful guy" or "the smartest guy"... so maybe I am a subconscious and closeted narcissist.

Whatever the case, it is interesting to me.

~Heff

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17


They don't need someone to follow, they need someone to love them, they need someone to accept them. If someone wants someone older to give them advice, good, but do not force someone upon them.

reply to post by Hefficide


There is a guy who, aware of the manipulation media engages in, tried to do the exact opposite. That is, he spent hundreds of hours standing out alone on a college campus next to signs bearing ambiguous messages with the purpose of allowing others to form their own opinions about them. He recorded people’s opinions (and gives a verbatim transcript of conversations about them) here: signsonthequad.blogspot.com

Signs he stood out with included:
"IN HITLER'S GERMANY UNIVERSITIES WERE SILENT"
"IS THIS SIGN ANTI-SEMITIC?"
"THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU"
"THE DECEIVED ARE COMPLICIT IN THEIR DECEPTION"
"MONEY IS NOT REALLY REAL"
"I AM NOT GAY"
"YOU ARE NOT FREE"
"BEAT WOMEN"

reply to post by Hefficide


I have a similar personality as what you described there, which I think is a reason I'm often drawn to your threads. Self-criticism can lead to intellectual growth, I think, which draws others. A chip on the shoulder drive to get better. Also, people might see ungraceful behavior in social situations and empathize because everyone has self-doubt to an extent. Some are better at concealing than others. I find that when I'm alone and pursuing some knowledge, I seem to have endless confidence and self esteem. But in a social circle where people have a different set of interests and priorities, I question myself and doubt/anxiety creeps in.

This also contributes to my use of alcohol when going out, to feel more comfortable. A few weeks back I was with some friends from high school and started rambling about ATS topics when I was drunk. Got a pretty positive response, though I cringe a little looking back. When sober with the same people, I sometimes sit there quietly thinking about ATS topics and sort of analyzing them in terms of manipulation. Looking back on those is an even worse cringe.

reply to post by Hefficide


I think you're putting too much thought into it all Heff. We all know, in our own way, that we are trying to be manipulated or influenced every day by a wide range of people for a wide range of reasons. It's kind of a basic instinct that we're all born with. But there aren't that many who really want to get to the bottom of it and try to figure out why.

Whether you're keenly aware of it every day or don't put much thought into at all, everyone is the same in regards to that you either fall for the "manipulation tricks", or you don't. If you don't stand for something you're going to fall for anything, and no amount of manipulation on anyone's part is going to change that.

And yes, I understand that entities like marketing and government agencies realize this as well and that's why they can make the exact same ad for a product 3 different ways to appeal to 3 different demographics. Other people may not see this but, really, what does it matter? Again, if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything.

I don't think there's anyone or anything on this planet who has the skill set required to change someone's core values. Assuming of course that a given person has them. Kind of like that old joke "Yeah, he's such a good salesman he could sell ice cubes to an Eskimo." Or P.T. "There's a sucker born every minute" Barnum. He didn't make them suckers, they were born that way, he recognized that and used their naivete' against them.

And that's kind of my whole point here Heff: The people who know they're trying to be manipulated don't necessarily need or want to be reminded, and the people who don't......never will. Either way, the reasons why don't matter.

This is what, to me at least, makes this whole thing out to be a dog and pony show. It's all one big game and eventually people grow out of it or they don't. Some people I've met have actually never really participated in this game at all. Something about them has been able to see through it all from an early age and they were able to focus on the more important parts of life. Like self-growth. Or focusing solely on family because, somehow....someway they were born with a maturity to see though it all for what it is.

Some people call them enlightened, or fortunate, or even lucky. Me, I'll call them for a date because people like that appeal to me. I just don't have the patience anymore for people who can't appreciate, or care about, the finer points in life. And people like me do so because they're tired of the game. They're tired of other people always trying to manipulate them. They pick up their ball and go home and try to find someone who see's things the way they do.

I'll give you a S & F simply because we don't see topics like this on this forum much anymore Heff. Mature and thoughtful.

youtu.be...

reply to post by Hefficide




I think Politicians are pure Narcissists!

We should test all future Politicians, for this.



Seriously, I wonder how many, would actually be diagnosed with it.

reply to post by sonnny1


Oddly enough, when I was in my early twenties, due to my congenital heart defect, I qualified for a program called Vocational Rehabilitation. I had just become a father and was eager to better myself. After some initial, basic testing, showed I was bright, the folks at the VocaRehab place decided to send me to UGA ( The University of Georgia ) for some in depth aptitude assessment and testing. An entire two days of psych and intelligence evals.

At the end a printout generated, listing what I'd be good at. The first three were:

1) Politician
2) Lawyer
3) Forestry Service Ranger

To this day I cannot figure out how those three things connect!

One of the things down the list was journalist. So I signed up for school with a double major in journalism and broadcast communications. Unfortunately, this was a slow process and my first wife filed for divorce before I began school. Part of my grant was based upon the fact that I was the provider for a minor child - divorce, thus, disqualified me and I never went.

But, apparently, I am equipped to be the President and lead Judge for an Ewok village type society.

~Heff

Can I please have that 2 min. of my life back?

Originally posted by Hefficide

But, apparently, I am equipped to be the President and lead Judge for an Ewok village type society.

~Heff

That was funny!


Well, I am off to bed.

Thanks for the great posts, and illuminating responses, Heff, and actually the rest of the guys and gals on ATS also.

Love the thread, and as usually, has made me think.

reply to post by Hefficide


You asked a set of honest questions pertaining to your susceptibility to manipulation. I can honestly and truthfully say that I have never experienced any of the things on your list.

Mission Fail

reply to post by Taupin Desciple


"A sucker born every minute." If the Eskimo buying the ice cube is a sucker then I would wager that the salesman is too a sucker, he's still a servant himself.