Joining up??

Hi Theron

As a matter of interest, what degree to you hold in your local lodge? And how do you know that what the auther quoted is fake? She did do a university degree and I asume that to be on that level, she would know all about research and quoting the relevant information.

By the way is this quote a fake too?????

"Whenever you see any of our signs made by a brother Mason, and especially the Grand Hailing sign of distress, you must always be sure to obey them, even at the risk of your life. If you're on a jury, and the defendant is a Mason, and makes the Grand Hailing sign, you must obey it; you must disagree with your brother jurors, if necessary, but you must be very sure not to bring the Mason guilty, for that would bring disgrace upon your order. It may be perjury, to be sure, to do this, but then you're fulfilling your obligation, and you know if you "live up to your obligations you'll be free from sin."......... Ronyane, The Master's carpet pp 105-106

I assume from the colours that you use, that you belong to the blue lodge
Keep smiling

Originally posted by kanga
Hi Theron

As a matter of interest, what degree to you hold in your local lodge?

I am a master mason, as my signature states. I am also, though I am not sure this is what you meant, the Senior Warden of my lodge. Next year I will be installed as master.

And how do you know that what the auther quoted is fake? She did do a university degree and I asume that to be on that level, she would know all about research and quoting the relevant information.

And that makes her bland assertion correct? Without citation? Ok, here, I will cite the source of the quote, and show that it is taken from the fraud perpetrated by Leo Taxil (who, by the way, admitted he did it to make the RCC and the pope look like a fool... which he did admirably:

2. 'Illustrious' Albert Pike 33�
Instructions to World Supreme Councils
Aug. 14, 1889

The following quotation is taken from Edith Starr Miller's ('Lady Queensborough') Occult Theocracy (Published originally in 1933 e.v., later published by the Christian Book Club of America.), pp. 220 - 221.

The theological dogma of Albert Pike is explained in the 'Instructions' issued by him, on July 14, 1889, to the 23 Supreme Councils of the world and have been recorded by A. C. De La Rive in La Femme et l'Enfant dans la Franc-Maconnerie Universelle (page 588).

In de la Rive's work cited above, the following appears: "It was the Sister Diana Vaughan that Albert Pike, -- in order to give her the greatest mark of confidence, -- charged to carry his luciferian encyclical, to Paris, during the Universal Exposition." Who was this Diana Vaughan? Read on....)

Background: First, Leo Taxil had been expelled from Freemasonry within months of his having become a Mason; second, Diana Vaughan never existed but was, rather, the fanciful creation of Taxil and third, that upon the confession of Taxil, de la Rive publicly apologized for his many anti-Masonic writings, having been duped by Taxil. So if de la Rive had nothing whatsoever to do with Taxil, then where did his material come from and why on earth would he be publishing apologies for having been duped by the man?

'That which we must say to the crowd is -- We worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition.

'To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees -- The Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the of purity of the Luciferian doctrine.

'If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy, and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, calumniate him?

'Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also God. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two Gods: darkness being necessary to light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive.

'In analogical and universal dynamics one can only lean on that which will resist. Thus the universe is balanced by two forces which maintain its equilibrium: the force of attraction and that of repulsion. These two forces exist in physics, philosophy and religion. And the scientific reality of the divine dualism is demonstrated by the phenomena of polarity and by the universal law of sympathies and antipathies. That is why the intelligent disciples of Zoroaster, as well as, after them, the Gnostics, the Manicheans and the Templars have admitted, as the only logical metaphysical conception, the system of the two divine principles fighting eternally, and one cannot believe the one inferior in power to the other.

'Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophic religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil.'

So, you see, it is taken and used and reused by folks who should know better. The "letter" is a fraud, and people that claim to have high degrees should have the sense to fact check before posting material, because, as you are demonstrating, the claim of a high degree makes some folks seem to think that material offered therefore has some imprimateur of truth... when it clearly does not. Even PhDs are fools sometimes. (By the way... a common saying among the PhDs is PHD= Piled Higher and Deeper)

"Whenever you see any of our signs... obligations you'll be free from sin."......... Ronyane, The Master's carpet pp 105-106

I find manifold references that SAY it is from pp 183 of the Masons Handbook, but NOWHERE does it say what masonic handbook, nor have that name associated with it. And since it is not in any masonic handbook I have been able to find, nor is it on pp 183 as most antimasonic websites seem to claim, while you claim it is on pp 105-106, I must assume that it is a fraud.

You see, while I am to fly to the aid of a brother giving the sign or the words accompanying it, I am NOT to do so if there is a greater probability of losing my life than of saving his. Also, there is a strict prohibition in the lodges, in what we teach and what we stand for AGAINST lying. So now, lets see, we have the unsubstantiated claims of non masons that we will lie for a brother as opposed to 5 MILLION masons claiming with one voice that no such thing would happen....

Why should anyone (especially in light of the fake quote you just used) believe what you and Public Gadfly are asking/stating?

I assume from the colours that you use, that you belong to the blue lodge

Yes. I am VERY active in the lodges. I am on the Grand Lodge Child ID committee, I am the Senior Warden of my lodge, I am the Child ID Committee Chairman in my district, and I am a Shriner. Next year I will be master of my lodge, and the year after that, I will join Scottish Rite.

The problem appearing here is that since you do not know, you assume that masons will do evil for each other, and the opposite is true. If a brother asked me to lie for him (a HIGHLY UNLIKELY eventuality) I whisper good counsel in his ear and refuse, as would ALL my brothers. If I saw the grand hailing sign in court (again, HIGHLY unlikely, for several reasons, but mostly because you have never seen it and do not know whereof you speak... its kind of conspicuous for obvious reasons) it would not change ANYTHING.

But again, the circumstance you raise is so unlikely as to be absurd... again, its like asking what blue smells like or what eau d' skunk sounds like...

NOTHING in my obligation requires me to lie or to do anything unethical, and in fact, does just the opposite. My obligation REQUIRES upright, moral, ethical, honorable behavior, as does EVERY masons obligation. Claims to the contrary only display a lack of knowledge.

thanks for asking.

Hi Theron

I don't know what happened to our conversation on this thread but I want to thank you for keeping me on track, to dig up the answers:0)

In answer to your challenge that my quote on Albert Pike was a hoax and fraudulent. Please visit www.freedom-ministries.com, when you are on that website click on Leo Taxil Fraud and you will have my answer. It explains it all in a very clear concise manner.

I met the person who wrote this article recently and was refered to their website for further information.

I know you are of the blue lodge, I was wondering if you know about the red lodge or not?

Keep smiling

Originally posted by kanga
In answer to your challenge that my quote on Albert Pike was a hoax and fraudulent. Please visit www.freedom-ministries.com, when you are on that website click on Leo Taxil Fraud and you will have my answer. It explains it all in a very clear concise manner.

Kanga,

No offense, but coming from a Non-Mason (me), that was quite possibly the least clear and least concise article I have read from the Anti-masonic side of the topic.

And as a tip, (this should be taken as advice, not criticism) I would recommend that you begin your next oration or attempt at persuasion with something other than belittlement and bigotry. No one ever made a friend of a stranger by punching said stranger in the face.

Originally posted by kanga
In answer to your challenge that my quote on Albert Pike was a hoax and fraudulent. Please visit www.freedom-ministries.com, when you are on that website click on Leo Taxil Fraud and you will have my answer. It explains it all in a very clear concise manner.

The Leo Taxil hoax concerning Pike first appeared in print in the book "Woman and Child In Universal Freemasonry" by Abel Clarin de la Rive. From there, it was adapted into English in Edith Starr Miller's book "Occult Theocracy".

What the anti-Masons don't tell you is De La Rive issued a retraction in the anti-Masonic magazine that he wrote for, "Freemasonry Dissected", in its April 1897 issue. De La Rive first admitted to having been duped by Taxil, then issued a public apology to Lilian Pike-Roome, Albert Pike's daughter, for having slandered the respected name of her late father.

Furthermore, even the Roman Catholic Church has documented the hoax, and the whole story is included "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" by Lamothe.

And furthermore, in 2002, US News ran a special issues about the world's most famous hoaxes, which included the Taxil hoax. The article about the Taxil hoax, "Devil In A Red Fez", can be read here:

web.mit.edu...