Russia building nuclear submarines for India

It doesn't matter cowlan.

This whole entire thread consists of you and your friend making gradiose, BS staements whilst completely ignoring all the arguments, logic and fact ripping them apart, anyhow.

Same old, same old. Execpt only now do you acknowlege what you're doing.


BTW I'm still awaiting your many analysis proving I am "BULLSH!T."

-IA/PLA
-deployability of forces
-technological comparison of forces
-Arjun is a failure
-LCA is a failure
-PLAN outclasses IN
-T-98 is better than Arjun
-India doesnt have nuclear deterrance vs. China
-China can 'absorb' nuclear attack with no probs
-ATV is a failure
-Type 55 is better than classes of IN ships
-etc
-etc
-etc


Did I forget anything?


-Raj

[edit on 15-12-2004 by rajkhalsa2004]

rajkhalsa2004 did you say something?

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yeah. I ignored you so oh well.

Raj,

Although I don't think America is blatantly fascist, if you take a step back and look at America in general, you'll notice that it has a lot of fascistic tendencies. It's economy relies heavily on fascist technocracy, such that our quality of life is broadcasted as superior. By convincing the rest of the world of this, we increase our exports and can afford to be very strict on immigration restrictions (allowing only the wealthiest, most educated, most powerful individuals to enter America).

I think this "neo-colonialism" is very much alive, it's just not explicit.

I would have to disagree.

While America may exhibit autocractic control over the free market (and then, really which country does not), to say it equates, nay surpasses China in authoritative fascism, is either authoritarianism or market control itself, a simple, crazy untruth.

Even bringing up that kind of argument is an intellectual dishonesty to the nth degree. But I don't think




Cowlan,

Wow

That's probably the most convincing argument you have ever made on this board.

Well done!, Comrade.

And now only if your anti-Indian propaganda could be as substantive as your pathetic cop-outs...

-Raj

[edit on 15-12-2004 by rajkhalsa2004]

I do not buy into the entire 'clash of civilizations' BS at all. Geopolitics is defined by national interest, and nothing else. The whole basis for your idea is an irrational fear over this shadowy spectre of 'neo-colonialism'.

You give America/'Western Empire' far too much power. A country cannot dictate onto another its own national interests, and certainly so for onto countries as large and significant as Russia, China or India.

Again, I reiterate you are misinformed, or perhaps a more accurate description would be, selectively reading. It appears all you take into consideration to support your fragile Indo-US relationship is what has happened in the last 2-3 years and your wishful thinking of it burgeoning further into something special. You're dreaming.

I am amused that you do not see the irony that I do when you whine about the 1962 Sino-Indo friendship and the betrayal, or perhaps even the Anglo-Indo friendship that later lead to the enslavement of your nation.

The Western Empire is real and controls more than 90% of the global economy and resources. The main geo-political and economic bodies UN, IMF, WTO are based in the west. The most technologically advanced army belongs to the west. The greatest knowledge/research infrastructure belongs to the west. The most powerful companies from Microsoft to Wallmart are owned by the west.

No one contests that. In fact, even in your own country, it is westernization that is the dominant culture. All you do, and it does not matter if you fess up or not, is cater to western companies with your call centres and technicians. This is only because you are cheaper. What you call "warming relations" is actually exploitation.

So, too right, I am giving the western empire too much power, because that is reality.

So lets get this straight. China who supplies the vast bulk of Pakistani weapons, has proliferated to them weapons, nuclear technologies, and nuclear weapons platforms, is more a friend/ally than a United States who 'overlooked' these sales??

You have mistaken my criticism of India as a support for China. This is nothing to do with China. This has everything to do with dispelling the delusions you harbor of US being your ally and cannot possibly entertain a hostile agenda for you. All I am doing is you waking up to the reality of the real world.

And I think you discount how far American-Indian relations have come. In Kargil in particular, America sanctioned Pakistan, and, along with even China, condemned Pakistan.

I am not discounting how far American-Indians relations have come. I am discounting your exaggeration of it.

You see this is where your naitivity seeps through. You think America's and China public stunts of condemning Pakistan is a reflection of their real stance. Actually, China and Pakistan have excellent relations, and if a conflict were to arise between you and either one of them, they will both be ganging up on you.

Not that it matters. India handily won the war itself. I must say I get the feeling from you the cold-war mentatlity of equating India and Pakistan. That this 'Indiapakistan' conflict is one of parity, and that only the favours and and whims of the 'big power's and 'western empires' play a significant role in tilting this balance.

Well, then you are wrong. I know that India is economically, militarily and technologically leaps and bounds ahead of Pakistan, and is more or less at parity with China. However, I don't see how this has anything to do with the subject we are suppose to be discussing.

Friend, that was over 30 years ago. You have to remember, less than 10 years before that, China signed friendship agreements with India, encouraged India to demilitarize the Tibetan border, and then promptly invaded and attacked a weakened India.

Yes, it was 30 years ago, but you're missing the point; the point is, that US showed aggression against you because you liberated Bangladesh. In the future, if you do something against US interests, the possibility exists for aggression. Now, please don't give me the BS that US cannot do that. The truth is you cannot do anything against the US if it did.

And in 1997, China transferred nuclear technologies and missiles to Pakistan. This is the act of our better friend against the big bad Yanks?

Yet, the US condemned you and slapped sanctions on you.

And for the four and some decades following the 1962 war, China launched incusions into Indian territory, supplied weapons and monies to terrorist groups in Indias northeast, given an incredible ammount of military and economic aid/write offs to Pakistan, which allowed then to continue their cross-border terror.

That has nothing to do with the US.

And in 2003, following the incredible resurgence of American-Indian ties, America allowed the Phalcon sale, which is a strategic force-multiplier unparalleled in that part of the world. Even today, numerous American/Israeli weapons systems are installed on nearly every Indian war material, and even with this sale of 30 year old rust bucket jets to Pakistan, America is offering India the most advanced weapons systems, including F-16blk50 + deep license for IAF, Aegis equipped ships and tricked up Orions for the IN, patriot missile systems and further development of Green Pine radars for IA, considerable defense and research investment and cooperation, etc., etc.

Hello, America sells weapons to loads of countries. There is no need to be excited that America is selling you x, y and z. America is also selling to Pakistan. All it is doing is fueling an arms race between you.

Pakistan wants many things. As I mentioned before, these are F-16blk 15s. Even India's MiG-21BIS fleet is a far more potent aircraft in all respects. These planes do nothing to erode the overwhelming strategic and conventional superiority over Pakistan.

The Indian Government was not as dismissive as you. America is still weaponizing Pakistan, even knowing, that they are going to be used against you. So much for your Indo-US friendship.

Look. I don't doubt India and America have a ways to go, but they are slowly and surely getting there. And frankly, I would consider China a far worse enemy than Pakistan.

You are barking up the wrong tree mate. Heed to the wisdom of Russia and form the trilateral axis with China and Russia. If you want a multipolar world. However, if you align with the Western Empire, you are just adding to it's already vast power and find yourself in an economic trap, and become subserviant to the New World Order. Before you know it, your leaders have sold your sovereignity to the west and you lose your independence for the nth time.

Then again I have no idea if your leaders have already sold you out. There is a Italian born leader ruling your country right now, correct?

Its MNNA status is a joke. A badge of being a US puppet.

That is hilarious. What do you think you are wanting to be?

India's trade with China: $1 billion.
India's strategic relationship with America relative to China: Priceless.

You have not addressed the actual fact that US invests $100 billion more in China. Yet you claim some sort of special relationship with US. Heck, you are not even in the top 15 trading nations of the US. I hope sense is prevaling and your illusions of "great expectations" are withering away.

I've not heard of that. Regardless, the world changed post 9/11, and cold war mentalties were for the most part dropped, and America woke the ***k up about where the rest of the world really stands. I can assure you however no such status or even assertion of any of the kind by any major policy maker exists today.

This was post 9/11 actually. I will try and find a source. Also, America was never sleeping, but it's seems you most certainly were. "The war on terrorism" was already planned before the 9/11 attacks.

You think we India's are sitting in our little villages spinning our little spinning wheels, basking in awe for the baksheesh the Yankee sahibs have granted us?

Well it certainly sounds that way from the way you are talking. You have not even considered the American threat and the expanding western empire. It certainly does not seem like you are looking after your interests.

Apart from the India-American relationship, the Indian-Russian, Indian-EU and dare I say (ack) Indian-Chinese relationship are growing. The geostrategic balance and friendships that exist assure that India is not going to get played.

You are too concerned about your relations with others. In the same way an Indian cares too much about what society thinks about them. No one in the world is going to take you seriousy until you do not become more assertive. It is the weak who conform; the powerful lead.

You must be certifiably insane to make that comment.

America and Israel are more fascist than PRC??

No, not insane, just informed. Which you are not. I don't think you realize that the western empire has become a global fascist organization. China is indeed a fascist nation, but compared to the empire and it's draconian regime, it's nothing. As for Israel, you have either not read anything about the decades of oppression of the Palistanian people, or you've been selectively reading again.

More agression than in China's relationship with India??

You are being childish. This is not about China. It is about you. And you would have to be highly ignorant, to not note the US aggression against India which has formed most of it's relations with India.

I don't care about playground fights and I don't care about egos. I care about the safety and security of over a billion of my co-nationals.

You obviously do not. Otherwise, you would not let yourself be doubleplayed by a neo-imperialist America. You need a credible nuclear deterant against America and Europe to secure the future of your billion people and you need to form an alliance to counter-balance the west. Otherwise, I'm sorry to say, you would be an overconfident and naive idiot.

America has thousands of nuclear missiles. Do you think that not even one is pointed at you?

You've completely ignored the question I asked you: How are you going to cope if US went to war with you?

[edit on 15-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
I would have to disagree.

While America may exhibit autocractic control over the free market (and then, really which country does not), to say it equates, nay surpasses China in authoritative fascism, is either authoritarianism or market control itself, a simple, crazy untruth.

Even bringing up that kind of argument is an intellectual dishonesty to the nth degree. But I don't think

It's like comparing 1984 with Brave New World, one form of control is harder to notice than the other. I'd CERTAINLY PREFER the fascist technocracy of Brave New World over 1984, but I still recognize both as forms of control.

I never said that America restricts freedom to the same degree or even in the same fashion as China. They aren't comparable.

However, we need to keep an open mind. Wars are not as common as they used to be. A country dominates not by military conquest anymore, it's through media and forceful introduction of values/beliefs. I have no doubt in my mind that if Iraq becomes a Democratic Republic like the US, they'll become great allies. Iraq will be to the Middle East as Japan was to Asia.

I think China is wary of this, which is why they are so paranoid about free media.

A credible deterant against Europe and America will ruin everything for India...Just try and play out the future as of tomorrow if India declares it has ICBMs of 10000km + range...The Americans and the Europeans will be in disarray...The Russians will be confused... the Australians and Japanese will throw temper tantrums...Sanctions, foreign investment plummets...the list is endless..Indias position now is as strong as ever...It does not need a deterant against the west...the russians provide that deterrant if ever required....
You talk about the Carrier in the 1971 war..what you failed to mention was the carrier fleet was molested (:lol by a bunch of Russian Akulas...The russians went even as far as saying that if the US infringed Indian Airspace they would declare war on the USA...Thats credible enough detterant for India...

Plus you forget that India enjoys a great relationship wiht the French and the British...Even the Australians foresee a joint military patrolling south East Asia and the Indian Ocean....
Anyways the fact is India doesn't need to go public about its ICBM capability if it has one, it would just ruin matters...now keeping ICBMs on the quiet..thats an entirely different matter...


And btw India gives MFN status to Pakistan..
So that stands for nothing really...

US support for Pakistan..the US as of now post 9/11 will never support Pakistan over India..Remember the war in 1999?
The US did some major Paki arm twisting to get them to close down those terror camps...
The US are not our allies, agreed..we don't need them as allies..but they're they're just a step below that..and IMHO its should stay thatway..


And COWlan please don't make general accusations..point out disparities in Rajkhalsa's post if you want to...I've had enough of "thats all bull#"..especially when it is a weapon oriented post...we have few of thsoe in the weps forum these days..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
A credible deterant against Europe and America will ruin everything for India...Just try and play out the future as of tomorrow if India declares it has ICBMs of 10000km + range...The Americans and the Europeans will be in disarray...The Russians will be confused... the Australians and Japanese will throw temper tantrums...Sanctions, foreign investment plummets...the list is endless..

They all throw tantrums and whine in the beginning. They have done that for every Indian nuclear and missile test. They did it with China too. In the end they bow down to those who have power.

Indias position now is as strong as ever...It does not need a deterant against the west...the russians provide that deterrant if ever required....
You talk about the Carrier in the 1971 war..what you failed to mention was the carrier fleet was molested (

:lol

by a bunch of Russian Akulas...The russians went even as far as saying that if the US infringed Indian Airspace they would declare war on the USA...Thats credible enough detterant for India...

No, that is called being dependent on others to watch your back. As I said, no one is going to take you seriously until you grow up and look after yourself. In 1971 Russia was engaged in a cold-war with US. Today, US-Russians relationships are marginally better. Can you guarantee Russia will risk a nuclear war with US, to save India?

Plus you forget that India enjoys a great relationship wiht the French and the British...Even the Australians foresee a joint military patrolling south East Asia and the Indian Ocean....

Almost as great as the relationship with the US?

Anyways the fact is India doesn't need to go public about its ICBM capability if it has one, it would just ruin matters...now keeping ICBMs on the quiet..thats an entirely different matter...

It would be difficult to hide ICBM capability. As they would require test flights. India does not have ICBM's. Period. It cannot project enough power in the world to be taken seriously. There are only two countries to date, Russia and China that have enough power to oppose the western empire. That is why the world takes them seriously.

US support for Pakistan..the US as of now post 9/11 will never support Pakistan over India..Remember the war in 1999?
The US did some major Paki arm twisting to get them to close down those terror camps...

Nothing but public stunts to pacify your country. Meanwhile, Pakistan is an important US ally.

The US are not our allies, agreed..we don't need them as allies..but they're they're just a step below that..and IMHO its should stay thatway..

Yes, it should remain that way. Unfortunately that is not so, as your economy and policies are becoming increasingly dependent on the west. You may find yourself in an economic and cultural snare. Your indigenous culture is already dominated by the west. Further, I read recently, that India is now open to US mediation in Kashmir? Is that true?

You either form your own alliance with Russia and China to form your own pole, or be assimilated by the Western Borg.

[edit on 16-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Aye, I say this is extremely similar to the situation before world war one with the Ottoman Empire and the Austrian-Hungarian empire trying to keep its empires together while Germany and GB and Italy and France growing fast. Its either join the old empires and lose at the next war or join the new and upcoming countries to win.

Being assimilated is never a good thing for any country. You wish to keep your political influence upon other nations and not lose the influence and a country wish to operate for the good of themself than just a supplier or being exploited by other nations. So I believe in the next ten to twenty years, Russia, China and India (maybe pakistan) should form a strategic alliance as because we are the upcoming superpowers and in the next 50 years it seems only us could serious oppose America in terms of military, economics and political influence.

I definitely see China and India as up-and-coming superpowers...

but I thought Russia was on its way out?

Russia is on a critical stage where if president Valadmir Putin messes up the whole country will probably go to ruins.

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
-IA/PLA
-deployability of forces
-technological comparison of forces
-Arjun is a failure
-LCA is a failure
-PLAN outclasses IN
-T-98 is better than Arjun
-India doesnt have nuclear deterrance vs. China
-China can 'absorb' nuclear attack with no probs
-ATV is a failure
-Type 55 is better than classes of IN ships
-etc
-etc
-etc


Did I forget anything?

-Raj

[edit on 15-12-2004 by rajkhalsa2004]

IA/PLA

This is a downright stupid argument. The IA and PLA have similar infantry equipment and APCs/IFVs (Type 81,INSAS,both copies of Ak-47s.There,don't say only China copys stuff) (BMP1/2 and OT62/64 against Type 90s and Type 92s).The Chinese have a huge advantage over the IA.

Technological Comparison

Both countries have similar weapons supplied mostly by Russia,while China has larger numbers.Comparing your best to our best,equipment is roughly equal in technology.

PLAN

China's Navy's main threat is from its fast attack craft,they can be deployed in a moment's notice,are cheap and effective.Besides that,we have lots of modernized DDGs.Our submarine fleets are close to being equal,but that might change if Russia builds nuclear subs for India.

Arjun/LCA

Both are good projects,but take a look at their Chinese equivalents (Type 98 & J-10).The Arjun and LCA are produced too late to be any good when they come out in full service.The Chinese equivalents are also cheaper.

India's Nuclear Deterrent

India doesn't have a nuclear deterrent.Get it into your head,because India will be hoping that China doesn't nuke their asses.If India nukes China,can anyone guess what will happen? No prizes for guessing,kids

India's Allies

Russia is already in a crisis stage.If President Putin makes a wrong move they will crumble.China plays a part in Russia's economy.China is Russia's biggest military client.Russia will not risk it by helping China.Instead,It will play the middle man,selling equipment to both China and India.And the USA,don't even mention them as India's allies.The USA will not risk a Nuclear war with China even for North Korea,what makes you think they will risk one for India?

etc,etc,etc,etc

I'm too tired to look through all that.Go find that info yourself.

PS:Just back from a 3 day camping trip,I'm all tired.