Russia building nuclear submarines for India

*sigh* Here we go again


1. Yes. Lets compare the Type-98s to Arjun. I am awaiting your analysis. I'd further like to see a scenario from you detailing exactly where these two tanks would even come into contact? Massed tank battles on the Himalaya? Blitzkrieg through the Burmese jungles?

Again with your 'thoughts' about topics you haven't even read about. Furthermore, I want detailed explanation from you on why you think T-72 ( ) outclasses Arjun!

I hope for your sake you ain't a betting man.


2. Again, an inane statement from you. I'm sick of all this chest-thumping rhetorical BS bandied about as fact. I want detailed explanation/comparison between the two navies.

I'm sorry, but ask anyone, anywhere with the least bit of knowlege about the subject, and they'll tell you that IN outclasses PLAN significantly. I'm not going to waste time explaining the patently obvious when it can just as easily be figued out by 5 minutes of googling.


3. J-7s and -8s are modified to take on Mirages? Flankers will be taken care of by AAA guns? LOL.

Stop embarassing yourself.

4. India doesn't need ICBMs. What, we have plans to nuke Washington? This is exactly what "credible nuclear deterrant" means, enough nukes and delivery systems to deter possible nuclear power without overkill.

Regardless, it's well known that India's Polar Satelite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) can be modified to ICBM if the need ever arises. Interestingly enough, India's joined hands with Russia to be equal partner in GLONASS project, which would give India >meter accuracy for any misisle system. This, plus huge developments underway, and more planned, in the field of re-entry systems (ostensibly for a "reusable re-entry launch vehicle") are certainly raising some eyebrows. *wink wink* Google "Surya"

And yes. China can nuke all of Asia if it wishes. Would China really want to, especially at the loss of all its major urban and financial centers? Agni I and II are already mass produced and deployed. Agni III, which would put all of China under it has just been succesfully tested a month or so ago. DRDO chief says 'hundreds' of the missiles will be manufactured each year.

Yes. India does have credible nuclear deterrant. If this wasn't so, India and China would have already gone to war by now.


5. China's economy is 10 years ahead of India. No one doubts that. This is due to idiotic policies by former GoI that refused to liberalize the economy when they should have. India's economic growth is not FDI fueled, but is a more competative, organic growth of local industries. India's just now starting to recieve significant FDI, which is expected to grow exponentially, like the Indian economy, with each passing year. By all estimates, India will definately keep the gap at the very least the same that exists today, with China. A significant number of reports by the foremost financial groups/institutions/orgs in the world suggest India will close the gap. But regardless this whole comparison is economic, and off-topic to the post.

India is ahead in one area critical to defense -- that of the knowlege/research industries. This, plus equally impressive commerical competitiveness of its industries, and the growth in capability of and cooperation with of India's top-educational system, as well as the ability to cooperatively network with any foreign defense company/country will allow India to maintain the current technological/numerical parity with China.

Are you familiar with the term diminishing returns? As both our economies grow, even if a miracle happened and the Chinese economy were to outstrip Indias considerably, the ability for this money to translate to military superiority diminishes relatively.

There are other factors as well. As China aggressively militarizes, the whole range of hostile nations surrounding it does as well; in 10 years don't be surprised to see a remilitarized Japan, a South Korea with a potent missile force, a Tawian given arms from America to maintain its strategic parity with PRC, a militarized SE Asian region (already this is happening), potentially some sort of defense pact between these nations, and worst case scenario, one of them developing nuclear capability.

What you and your cronies singularly fail to realize is that time is on India's side!

As the months and years progress, the balance of power tilts more and more toward India, as India considerably enhances its combat capabilities by several magnitudes.

Why do you think the PRC drones running your country are falling over themselves trying to placate India, and frantically want to solve outstanding border and trade disputes?


But whatever. You guys stick to your Chinese-language circle-jer... er, I mean BBSs. Let your long-winded, low-substance rhetoric let you sleep better at night

Cheers,
Raj

I am not knowledgeable on India and Chinese military, as much as you guys, but I know enough about geopolitics to comment.

I find it very unfortunate, that instead of calling for your countries to form a trilateral axis with Russia to thwart the further expanation of the western empire, you are fighting with each other. It is clear that both of you are very powerful and proud countries, and it also clear, that a Sindo-Indo conflict would be a stalemate if it was fought conventionally. Otherwise MAD.

However, I think you are being very complacent, especially India. While China has a credible deterent against the west, India doesn't. Yes, the GSLV and PSLV can be modified into an ICBM if need arises, but I am not entirely convinced it would be effective as an ICBM, and I honestly doubt India has enough to mount a credible intercontinental deterrent.

India will need to acquire or manufacture ICBMs. Otherwise, you could well be setting yourself up for another 1962, this time with America. Your common enemy is America. It is America that is weaponizing India's and China enemies, Pakistan and Taiwan respectively, and doubleplaying you both.

America is playing power-politics, divide and rule, it is entrapping you all, in a strategic status quo, so that you remain strategically immobilized and isolated in your regions while it expands it's influence gradually by moving into the Indian ocean. It's playing you as pawns in a grande chessmaster game of the western elites, friends, and I hope you realize it before it's too late. I would not want to see your great countries be enslaved again.

I hope, that you, along with Russia, form that trilateral axis it is proposing and secure your future and lead the world in the 21st century. You are the worlds only hope to stop the western empire.

Thank's for listening.

[edit on 14-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

rajkhalsa2004 I must say you really know nothing and I mean absolutely nothing of the Chinese military.

China DOES, DOES have AWACS. Unlike some one here who said they were empty shells with nothing in there.

May I ask what planes are you gonna you on your aircraft carrier right now to bomb our cities? What do you think S-300PMU2s are for? They can easily lock, track and destroy any aircraft India can field on the CVNs. and might I add you CVNs are nothing but floating junk used for the last thirty or fourty years. There maintenance fees costs more than the actual value they have.

Comparing the Arjun to the T-98 or the T-99G is like comparing a car with a soldier shooting an AK-47 inside with a real life tank. It just doesn't compare. Go. Compare your Arjun, www.sinodefence.com.

India superior in tank force than China? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Indian navy in 2017. Thats twenty seventeen. Thats a long time and please, don't ASSUME something to be in your inventory because your country have thought of developing them. Its just not the same, I would like to see some real live hardware actually being produced in large numbers before I acknoledge anything.

LCA is outdated, it does not provide an edge to any country that India might possibly have a military conflict on. Yes, there are tons of problems still needs to be worked on. Last I heard, there were problems with the engine and the radar.

I wouldn't call 40 year old CVNs as blue water capable ships because with anykind of modern ASM, you could take down your CVN. Sure they still float and they can propel them selves but actually fighting a war under modern circumstances? Dream on hunchos.

Mig-19 rips? WOW wrong. wrong. wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Does J-10 J-11 FC-1 look anything like MIG-19s? You probably needs glasses because its either your eyes are screwed up or your brain dumb.

1962, what do you think we had? We just had ten years of famine with millions died of hunger. Do you think we could actually afford missiles and bombers? We had nothing but basic infantry with rarely some grenades. Chinese army back then had no tanks NOTHING except for soldiers. So please don't even compare because if we had anything of real effectiveness then we'd have taken over the entire India and maybe "LIBERATE" India(as the same in Indian LIBERATING TIBET).

Yes Indeed we are in entirely different leagues in Space. Until you send a man into space, don't even talk alright? Doing missions on the moon, hah.

Nuclear Parity with China? You gotta be kidding me. I don't see India construct their own SSBNs with ICBMS. I don't see ANY ICBMS in India's inventory.

How fast do you actually think CVNs move? Thirty knots per hour? Thats 720 knots in a whole day, air crafts fly that much in an hour you dum dum. Evade aircrafts by moving your outdated cariers. haha. So your practically stating that Indian soldiers can do the matrix move and evade bullets?

China can swallow 100 nukes easily. Just BeiJing needs at least 40 nukes that India can send to be annilated. Yes, a nuke has a blast radius of 2-4 miles and thats a 500 Kiloton+ nuke but the heat could kill someone within 6 kilometers. Please don't be ignorant.

PS. rajkhalsa2004 you sure like things in your mouth, I'm sure thats what you like in real life as well.


[edit on 14-12-2004 by COWlan]

LCA is outdated, it does not provide an edge to any country that India might possibly have a military conflict on. Yes, there are tons of problems still needs to be worked on. Last I heard, there were problems with the engine and the radar.

Actually the Indian LCA is a decent single seater multirole(air superiority, tactical strike, air defence) and is comparable to some of the worlds best. According to here , an Indian defence site. It's main purpose is to replace the obsolete aircraft. It is not intended to the best fighter in the world. I believe India and Russia are already jointly developing a 7th generation fighter anyhow.

I believe India already has a very potent air force and more airpower in terms of technology than China. China's airforce is mostly comprised of very obsolete aircraft.

Yes Indeed we are in entirely different leagues in Space. Until you send a man into space, don't even talk alright? Doing missions on the moon, hah.

Doesn't India already have plans for a moon mission in the not so distant future?

Nuclear Parity with China? You gotta be kidding me. I don't see India construct their own SSBNs with ICBMS. I don't see ANY ICBMS in India's inventory.

It does not really need ICBM's vis-a-vis China. I believe it already has IRBMs capable of hitting most of China, which includes nearly all of the economic centrers. Hence, they have nuclear parity.

China can swallow 100 nukes easily. Just BeiJing needs at least 40 nukes that India can send to be annilated. Yes, a nuke has a blast radius of 2-4 miles and thats a 500 Kiloton+ nuke but the heat could kill someone within 6 kilometers. Please don't be ignorant.

No offence to you, but that has to be the most stupid statement I've read today. No, China cannot swallow 100 nukes. I understand you are patriotic, but you can be patriotic without being stupid. One 25kt nuclear device is generally enough to destroy a city. If a nuclear war were to break out between India and China, then mututal destruction is assured. India and China simply cannot go to war with each other, because neither could win it.

[edit on 14-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Lordy lordy lordy.

Cowlan. You are desperately trying to be condesending, hoping that this assumed (perhaps presumed) farce of superiority and contempt will disguise the facts and save face.

However bitter and petty your rhetoric, however much you repeat the same ad nauseum, doesn't take away from the fact that you are entirely incorrect on all facts, and your "argument" is nothing more than hollow words and slogans.

This tactic of yours belies your ultra-sensitive nationalism and xenophobia. Dare I say inferiority complex? Rather humorous, really.


If you have some criticism of the LCA, take it to the LCA thread, here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

What I am NOT going to do is refute your senseless allegations in every thread you post in when I have already gone to considerable effort debunking every one of them in that thread.

Yet, you flee that thread and refuse to post in it! Why? Simply because you know your arguments are BS and they have been proven to be so.


The rest of your post is again empty rhetoric and the your mask of contempt. Your slogans have been addressed in this thread.


I am still awaiting your IN/PLAN analysis!!

Not that its ever going to be forthcoming, anyway....

-Raj

Oh, and Cowlan,

The rest of your post shows your ignorance of PRC/PLAN Orbats and weapons.

Why would India need ICBMs? IRBMs such as Agni do the job quite well.

I'm still waiting for you to bring up a single, accurate fact.



Indigo_Child,

Frankly, I do not buy into this empty rhetoric of Asian pan-nationalism, or for that matter Western Empire. It is as naive an idea of pan-Islamism or Ummah.

It is this wooly idea of Asian nostalga that got Nehru to befriend China in the first place, and the 1962 surprise attack from what we thought were our bestest friends the Chinese, in violation of numerous friendship treaties, shows truely that India cannot be friends with a militant Chinese government.


America/Europe and India have far more in common politically, socially, economically, and even I would say culturally than India and China. The PRC of today is not the China of yore, and ever since the 'great leap forward', the Chinese government has gone to great lengths replacing traditional Chinese culture and values, values that would find resonance with the average Indian, with a fascist, xenophobic, expantionist ultra-nationalism.

This thread is ample proof of the mentality of the common Chinese nationalist. He displays an arrogance of other nations and cultures, a militant posture towards others expressed in the want for other nations to be subordinate to Chinese power, and, something I have seen throughout all my dealings with nationalistic mainland Chinese, an extreme inferiority complex from ancient or assumed slights which necessitates them to try to win the respect and awe of others through acts of show and power.

In this thread, it's through that act/self-delusion of contempt and hollow sloganeering.

In geopolitics, its China openly talking of Empire and subordination of periprial nations, and their manifest destiny of combatting the West. The only other nation in the world that can rival China is India, and China's proliferation of weapons, nuclear technology, missiles and aid to what is basically a failed nation-state Pakistan, is only to hold down India.


American aid to Pakistan, even the current potential sale of 2-generation outdated F-16 block15s really does not impact India in any way, militarily. India currently has such an overwhelming conventional superiority over Pakistan, especially in its air force. The noises you see eminating from India voicing concern over the sale is simple realpolitik: the act of taking full advantage of your advantges, while denying your enemies to the fullest.

Russia is traditionally India's friend and has been for decades. However, it is feeling the breath of the Chinese demographic dragon, and the ailing economy. It is only a matter of time before Russia becomes economically/demographically (but not strategically) subrodinate to China in Asia. Russia, as the years go by, will drift more and more toward Europe/EU, and leave Asia be, sacrificing de facto writ over Siberia to Chinese national companies who import Chinese labour.

All the similarities in culture/politics aside India and the West (and far-east Asia for that matter) need each other, want each other, and all sides know it. The growing Indo-American, Indo-European, Indo-ASEAN ties in economy and defense are the inevitable coming together of freedom loving peoples.


I would rather have an American-Indian friendship over an India-fascist friendship any day.


- Raj



[edit on 14-12-2004 by rajkhalsa2004]

Indian navy have yet to acquire Aegis equivilant airdefences therefore it is extremely vulnerable to modern anti-ship missiles and lack capabilites in terms of air defences. However on the other hand, China has acquired Aegis equivilant radar systems and has already installed them on two destroyers.

India has yet to acquire stealth destoyers while China already has four.

India has yet to acquire modern planes for its aircraft carriers.

India has yet to acquire SSBNs to secure its survival rate of its nuclear forces in case of nuclear exchange.

No, a nuclear bomb of 100 kiloton is not enough to destroy a city as they have limited explosive range and radiation fallout range. A medium size nuclearbomb has a damage radius of around 8 kilometers. Use the A=Pi r squared equation to calculate its damage area. it'll be 201.0619264 square kilometers(when pi is 3.1415926). Toronto is a large city with three million residents and its size is roughly about 3500 KM squared. A city the size of Toronto can swallow 17.40757220 nukes with a blast area of 201.0619264 square kilometers(when pi is 3.1415926).

And may I ask where was I ignorant of PRC/PLAN capabilities. I admit there are things we want to have and many things we'll need. We would like aircraft carriers but at our current situation, quiet nuclear attack submarine is much more effective on our current goals (eg. Securing Taiwan and preventing American CBG intervention and Japanese intervention).

We would like carriers but current Indian carriers are not the kind we are looking for. A much out dated carrier with little ability to defend itself is a drag on the abilities of surround vessels and reduce their effectiveness. When we build aircraft carriers we shall build one of 60000+ tonnage but that shall be in ten years at least if Taiwan gets resolved in 5.

Arjun is inferior to the Chinese T-98 and T-99G.

Further improvements were deemed necessary even after the Arjun design profile was accepted again in July 1996. On 27 August 1996, the Defense Production and Supplies Secretary ordered 15 pre-production tanks from the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi (at which point, estimates placed the project cost at $112 million). As of mid-1997 the list of faults after 20 years of development was not encouraging. In addition to numerous technical modifications to its fire and gun control systems, the fire control system in particular has been found unable to perform in temperatures above 42 degrees Celsius (108?F). The DRDO has been considering scrapping the current Arjun fire control system in favor of whatever is accepted for the T-72M1 upgrade program. Defects noticed during the user trials of the Arjun Mk.1 MBT, including over-heating of the engine in Rajasthan desert areas, had supposedly been ��y and large overcome?while other complaints were being addressed.
The first 120 tanks to be built would cost $4.2 million each, while other cost estimates places the figure at $5.6 million each per tank by 2001, given a purchase of 124 tanks to equip two regiments. Production of the first batch of tanks might take more than the planned five years, given the capacity at the Avadi factory.

Its cost is around 2 times that of the T-98, which offers good armor, excellent laser defence, good arsenal of missiles, good fire control system, communication system and excellent range.

Arjun has extremely inferior range.

Pakistan抯 announcment in 1995 of a deal with Ukraine to purchase T-84s caused a flurry of activity in the Indian tank development community. And on 9 January 1996, the Arjun was formally unveiled and cleared for mass production. Considered comparable to the M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2, and Leclerc, the 59-ton "15th Variant" can achieve a maximum speed of 70 kph (55 mph) and cross-country speed of 40 kph with its 1400-hp powerplant. The 1,610-liter fuel tank allows for a cruising range of 200 km (120 miles).

[edit on 14-12-2004 by COWlan]

[edit on 14-12-2004 by COWlan]

You just like digging yourself deeper and deeper into the ground, don't ya.

Originally posted by COWlan
Indian navy have yet to acquire Aegis equivilant airdefences therefore it is extremely vulnerable to modern anti-ship missiles and lack capabilites in terms of air defences.

However on the other hand, China has acquired Aegis equivilant radar systems and has already installed them on two destroyers.

Excuse me? Are you implying China's Type-52Cs or purchise of knocked down Sovremennys gives the PLAN Aegis-like capabilities? The Aegis system is more than just a phased array radar buddy. The meat of the system lies in its fire control and tracking computer systems. Suffice it to say, no one outside Aegis-equipped nations has Aegis-like capabilities.

The Chinese Sovry has an older model Fregat (Nato: top plate) phased array radar system. Its a nice system, but no where in the range or capabilities of an Aegis weapons system. Your Sinodefense claims 52C has a phased-array system similar to the Aegis, not a Aegis-comparable weapons system.


And, as a matter of fact, ("fact" being something new to you), India has more advanced phased array radars in service than the PLAN; a more modern version Top Plate radar on its 3 Talwar class missile frigate (+1 currently being built), will have upgraded version of the same on its Project 17 class missile frigates [tricked up Talwar] (3 being built + 7 more projected by 2010), its 3 Godaviri class missile frigates carry the Elta phased array, the 3 Delhi class destroyers have the latest model MR-775 Fregats, and the 3-8 Project 15A Bangalore class carry an upgraded version of the same with Indian and Israeli control systems, and the last should enter service by 2010.

So that's 4 (with the potential for purchase of 2 more) PLAN destroyers, versus 12 + 4 being built with the potential by 2010 of +15 more Indian ships with superior radar systems?

Should I mention the fact that all of these ships, with the exception of the Godaviris, but even that's debateable, carry superior firepower and superior weapons systems than the PLAN Sovrys, currently, and the Bangalore, Delhi, Talwar, Brahmaputra and P-17 outclasses the 052s in weapons and weapon load?

India will not have an Aegis-comparable combat system until the induction of the P-15a, and even then, it would not be comparable. The next generation (P-30) destroyers will have comparable systems. Even now, America has offered knocked-down Arleigh Burke class (aegis) destroyers to India, so if India wants to go down that road, it can.

India has yet to acquire stealth destoyers while China already has four.

LOL, the 52s are now "stealth" destroyers? Not quite, buddy. They have reduced RCS and employ radar-absorbent materials, but, guess what!, so does the Delhi, Bangalore, P-17, Godaviri, Talwar, and Brahmaputra!

Again, if we were to accept your BS definition of what constitutes a "stealth" warship, than again, India has considerably more that are considerably more powerful.

India has yet to acquire modern planes for its aircraft carriers.

ROFL! What do you call SHARs? MiG-29Ks? And by 2012, when SHARs are retired, NLCAs?

Lookit this. The guy chides us for supposedly not having "modern" aircraft on our carriers, and uses this as a negative comparison to his navy! Completely 'forgetting' the fact that we do have carriers, as well as an escort fleet that outclasses 90% of the PLAN by generations, and the other 10% by power-projection ability, range, weapons, systems and firepower!

India has yet to acquire SSBNs to secure its survival rate of its nuclear forces in case of nuclear exchange.

With China (and for that matter, Pakistan) not even having the capability to neutralize India's current strategic forces, I hardly think that's an issue. Regardless, as I said, wait about 5 years until the ATV starts sneaking around the IOR.

No, a nuclear bomb of 100 kiloton is not enough to destroy a city as they have limited explosive range and radiation fallout range. A medium size nuclearbomb has a damage radius of around 8 kilometers. Use the A=Pi r squared equation to calculate its damage area.

You literally had me open mouthed at this statement. I don't know whether to laugh or cry when the future of the PRC is sitting here with a strait face arguing that the only strategic damage from a nuclear weapon is only within the resulting blast radius.

Can you even begin to grasp the concept of economic, strategic, electromagnetic, agricultural, medical, etc., etc., etc. damage that a single nuclear weapons blast over in podunk village in rural China would have??

So far I've refrained, whatever my gut instinct, from calling you an sniviling moron, but, Jesus, this kind of (il)logic takes the cake!

And may I ask where was I ignorant of PRC/PLAN capabilities.

Lets see: their capabilities, radar, weapons systems, design... is there anything left that you haven't got wrong?

A much out dated carrier with little ability to defend itself is a drag on the abilities of surround vessels and reduce their effectiveness.

Now India has outdated carriers?

When we build aircraft carriers we shall build one of 60000+ tonnage but that shall be in ten years at least if Taiwan gets resolved in 5.

The day China puts to see a carrier with 60kton displacement would be the day Zimbabwe launches a moon mission.

Arjun is inferior to the Chinese T-98 and T-99G.

Oh yes yes. I've already heard that. What I want to know is how

[your cut and paste from a 4 y/o article about the Arjun]

[...]

Its cost is around 2 times that of the T-98, which offers good armor, excellent laser defence, good arsenal of missiles, good fire control system, communication system and excellent range.

I honestly am not familiar with the cost of the T-98.

I'm glad you say it has "good" armor, "excellent" laser defense(??? ), good FCS, etc...

I have yet to see any credible figures from you.

I want a direct comparison from you or your pals of the Type-98 vs. the Arjun in the following areas:
1. cost
2. armor
3. rifle
4. FCS
5. weight
6. weapons
7. ammunition

Awaiting your esteemed analysis.

Arjun specs are well known. I posted a great resource with specs straight from the developers mouth earlier in this thread.

I would like credible sources for all your claims. And no, the Sinodefense.com fansite doesn't count! (Manufacturer/official specs would be quite nice.)

-Raj

[edit on 14-12-2004 by rajkhalsa2004]

You see Indigo_Child the future of Indo-China relations is secure...confidence building measures are making great groundway for afriendly peaceful future. Except for the Maoists in Nepal and the TIbetians in India demanding independance, and of course Pakistan!!..Indo-China relations are on the up..This is just to test the bravado of the chicoms on this forum..

It takes at least 40 nukes to destroy Beijing

..

Please don't insult your intelligence COWlan..IMHO you're one of the most level-headed chicoms on this forum..

What he said was a fact. The hiroshima nuke hardly destroyed heroshima,what it did destroy was a lot of lives.To win a war you need to completely destroy a city.

No way...a nuke targeted a at city has only one objective...destroy maximum infrastructure, claim maximum lives and make it impossible for the city to function normally for the next decade atleast..
But C'mon 40 NUKES?!! You've got to be kidding me!!

Also replaying to Indigo_child...India doesn't perceive any threat at ICBM ranges and hence hasn't pursued that military course of action...India building ICBMs would just make the whole international community go...

"What the F***?......At whom are those ICBMs going to be pointed?!!!"

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
What he said was a fact. The hiroshima nuke hardly destroyed heroshima,what it did destroy was a lot of lives.To win a war you need to completely destroy a city.

You're insane.

Well ok...maybe not....but a single nuke on russia isn't gonna do crap,same goes for china.

Frankly, I do not buy into this empty rhetoric of Asian pan-nationalism, or for that matter Western Empire. It is as naive an idea of pan-Islamism or Ummah.

Well then you are ill-informed, and too caught up in this "mine is better than yours" rhetoric, to actually see what the big boys are doing.

America/Europe and India have far more in common politically, socially, economically, and even I would say culturally than India and China. The PRC of today is not the China of yore, and ever since the 'great leap forward', the Chinese government has gone to great lengths replacing traditional Chinese culture and values, values that would find resonance with the average Indian, with a fascist, xenophobic, expantionist ultra-nationalism.

All the similarities in culture/politics aside India and the West (and far-east Asia for that matter) need each other, want each other, and all sides know it. The growing Indo-American, Indo-European, Indo-ASEAN ties in economy and defense are the inevitable coming together of freedom loving peoples.

India-US, bhai bhai? This is not intended to be a racist comment, but Indians are renowned for their naivity and gullibility which has been the sole reason why India is the most raped, pillaged and conquered land on Earth. I see nothing has changed. For once, you Indians, are going to have to think with your heads, or history will repeat itself. So let's do some thinking together:

1.

In the two official and biggests wars you have fought with your arch enemy(the 1999 Kargil was a limited war) Pakistan, US has been it's official ally and had weaponized it to fight India. It has also had turned a blind eye to the transfer of nuclear weapons technology between China and Pakistan.

2.

In 1971, US intimidated India by dispataching a nuclear carrier on the bay of bengal to oppose India's liberation of the Bangladeshi people.

3.

In 1998, when India conducted the nuclear tests to promulgate to the world it's entry into the nuclear club. US condemend you and slapped you in the face with economic sanctions and and halted the transfter of the aircraft engine you needed for the LCA.

4.

For several decades US overlooked the cross-border terrorism sponsored by Pakistan, even in the recent Kargil Pakistani misadventure, the US overlooked Pakistan. It was only recently, and only to pacify India, did US slap Pakistan on the wrist.

5.

In 2002 US blocked/deferred the transfer of the Israeli Phalcon to India.

6.

In 2004 US offered to sell F-16's to Pakistan. Pakistan wants 25 by mid 2005.

7.

Pakistan enjoys ally status with US.

8.

China enjoys most favoured nation status with US.

9.

Chinese trade with US: $120 billion
Indian trade ith US: $20 billion

India is the 19th biggest trade partner with US.

10.

India enjoyed "rogue nation" status from US once when someone in the US cabinet, referred to it as a threat alongside Iran, Syria etc. Unfortunately, I cannot find the source. This was just a few years ago.

The relations you do have with the US are nothing but business, and US benefits from your cheap and educated labour. Further, US is using you as a counter-balance to China. You are being played.

I would rather have an American-Indian friendship over an India-fascist friendship any day.

I cannot think of any other country more facist than US and Israel, that you consider allies. Overal, there is nothing more than wishful thinking to your supposed friendship with US. Given the history you share with US, there is more aggression. Further, you really need to grow up, because it sounds to me as the "mine is better than yours" has this time become "they like me better than him" this is as intellectual as a playground fight.

Your country needs to become self-dependent. You will not become self-dependent, if you continue to rely on the false-promises of US. You are not the first country US has promised it's friendship too. Have you forgotten Iraq?

As I told you; US is doubleplaying you. It is doing the same with China, but at least the Chinese are not complacent and have a credible nuclear deterent against it. What are you going to do if you become the Iraq or Iran of tomorrow? Fire a space rocket?

[edit on 15-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
No way...a nuke targeted a at city has only one objective...destroy maximum infrastructure, claim maximum lives and make it impossible for the city to function normally for the next decade atleast..
But C'mon 40 NUKES?!! You've got to be kidding me!!

Also replaying to Indigo_child...India doesn't perceive any threat at ICBM ranges and hence hasn't pursued that military course of action...India building ICBMs would just make the whole international community go...

"What the F***?......At whom are those ICBMs going to be pointed?!!!"

Nuclear weapons are also called "peacemakers" because they deter other countries from engaging in aggression towards you. US, UK, France and Italy have nuclear ICBMS as well, who are they pointed at? You would be surprised.

Having ICBM's will actually make the world respect you more. It's an economy of power. In the same way nuclear weapons are an economy of power. Further it will actually secure your friendship.

I'm afraid you're being complacent by not factoring in a future conflict with the west. No offence, but your government is run by idiots. They care more about keeping a good reputation with the west than anything else. This is also why India is the only country with a no-first-use nuclear policy. It seems like you are still of the colonial mentality. I wonder if your leaders actually still take orders from the "white man"

[edit on 15-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

rajkhalsa2004 your talking BULLSH!T. Now. Would someone who actually has military equipment experience come and enlighten my friend rajkhalsa2004 here? Come because ignorance is polluting the air.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Chinese trade with US: $120 billion
Indian trade ith US: $20 billion

India is the 19th biggest trade partner with US.

Yes, but don't forget that India is still the world's #1 target of outsourcing (tech sector outsourcing). China is becoming a strong outsourcing target too, but India still enjoys the advantages of having a large English speaking population.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Well then you are ill-informed, and too caught up in this "mine is better than yours" rhetoric, to actually see what the big boys are doing.

I do not buy into the entire 'clash of civilizations' BS at all. Geopolitics is defined by national interest, and nothing else. The whole basis for your idea is an irrational fear over this shadowy spectre of 'neo-colonialism'.

You give America/'Western Empire' far too much power. A country cannot dictate onto another its own national interests, and certainly so for onto countries as large and significant as Russia, China or India.

In the two official and biggests wars you have fought with your arch enemy(the 1999 Kargil was a limited war) Pakistan, US has been it's official ally and had weaponized it to fight India. It has also had turned a blind eye to the transfer of nuclear weapons technology between China and Pakistan.

So lets get this straight. China who supplies the vast bulk of Pakistani weapons, has proliferated to them weapons, nuclear technologies, and nuclear weapons platforms, is more a friend/ally than a United States who 'overlooked' these sales??

And I think you discount how far American-Indian relations have come. In Kargil in particular, America sanctioned Pakistan, and, along with even China, condemned Pakistan.

Not that it matters. India handily won the war itself. I must say I get the feeling from you the cold-war mentatlity of equating India and Pakistan. That this 'Indiapakistan' conflict is one of parity, and that only the favours and and whims of the 'big power's and 'western empires' play a significant role in tilting this balance.

2. In 1971, US intimidated India by dispataching a nuclear carrier on the bay of bengal to oppose India's liberation of the Bangladeshi people.

Friend, that was over 30 years ago. You have to remember, less than 10 years before that, China signed friendship agreements with India, encouraged India to demilitarize the Tibetan border, and then promptly invaded and attacked a weakened India.

Bluffing in bar-stool poker match is a more negative matter than randomly being punched in the face by a guy who you considered a best friend.

3. In 1998, when India conducted the nuclear tests to promulgate to the world it's entry into the nuclear club. US condemend you and slapped you in the face with economic sanctions and and halted the transfter of the aircraft engine you needed for the LCA.

And in 1997, China transferred nuclear technologies and missiles to Pakistan. This is the act of our better friend against the big bad Yanks?

4. For several decades US overlooked the cross-border terrorism sponsored by Pakistan, even in the recent Kargil Pakistani misadventure, the US overlooked Pakistan. It was only recently, and only to pacify India, did US slap Pakistan on the wrist.

And for the four and some decades following the 1962 war, China launched incusions into Indian territory, supplied weapons and monies to terrorist groups in Indias northeast, given an incredible ammount of military and economic aid/write offs to Pakistan, which allowed then to continue their cross-border terror.

5. In 2002 US blocked/deferred the transfer of the Israeli Phalcon to India.

And in 2003, following the incredible resurgence of American-Indian ties, America allowed the Phalcon sale, which is a strategic force-multiplier unparalleled in that part of the world. Even today, numerous American/Israeli weapons systems are installed on nearly every Indian war material, and even with this sale of 30 year old rust bucket jets to Pakistan, America is offering India the most advanced weapons systems, including F-16blk50 + deep license for IAF, Aegis equipped ships and tricked up Orions for the IN, patriot missile systems and further development of Green Pine radars for IA, considerable defense and research investment and cooperation, etc., etc.

And what has China offered us? Proliferation of weapons of mass destruction to the terrorist epicenter of the planet?

With friends like these....

6. In 2004 US offered to sell F-16's to Pakistan. Pakistan wants 25 by mid 2005.

Pakistan wants many things. As I mentioned before, these are F-16blk 15s. Even India's MiG-21BIS fleet is a far more potent aircraft in all respects. These planes do nothing to erode the overwhelming strategic and conventional superiority over Pakistan.

Look. I don't doubt India and America have a ways to go, but they are slowly and surely getting there. And frankly, I would consider China a far worse enemy than Pakistan.

7. Pakistan enjoys ally status with US.

Its MNNA status is a joke. A badge of being a US puppet. America's relationship with India qualitatively surpasses that of Pakistan. In any case America has offered the same with India, who rightfully rejected it.

8. China enjoys most favoured nation status with US.

India, by virtue of being in WTO, alreay has similar trade benefits with US. Because China is still under sanctions, as is Pakistan, in order for America to allow the benefits of tarrif restrictions, etc., they both have to qualify yearly for "MFN" trade status. I.e. this status is only for countries that America is legally bound to verify its relationship with. India doesn't qualify for this status, so it is a moot argument.

9.Chinese trade with US: $120 billion
Indian trade ith US: $20 billion

India is the 19th biggest trade partner with US.

India's trade with China: $1 billion.
India's strategic relationship with America relative to China: Priceless.

10.India enjoyed "rogue nation" status from US once when someone in the US cabinet, referred to it as a threat alongside Iran, Syria etc. Unfortunately, I cannot find the source. This was just a few years ago.

I've not heard of that. Regardless, the world changed post 9/11, and cold war mentalties were for the most part dropped, and America woke the ***k up about where the rest of the world really stands. I can assure you however no such status or even assertion of any of the kind by any major policy maker exists today.

And if I were to post diplomatic communiques from PRC to India, you'd be surprised at the one sided, almost vulgar language eminating from the Chinese...

The relations you do have with the US are nothing but business, and US benefits from your cheap and educated labour. Further, US is using you as a counter-balance to China. You are being played.

It is geopolicy. Everything is a game.

You think we India's are sitting in our little villages spinning our little spinning wheels, basking in awe for the baksheesh the Yankee sahibs have granted us?

I think you mentioned once you are of Indian origin. Do you really hold your bretheran in the same level of intelligence or naiveity as colonial sterotypes had? Are we really that singularly incapable of looking out for our own national interests?

Apart from the India-American relationship, the Indian-Russian, Indian-EU and dare I say (ack) Indian-Chinese relationship are growing. The geostrategic balance and friendships that exist assure that India is not going to get played.

I cannot think of any other country more facist than US and Israel, that you consider allies.

You must be certifiably insane to make that comment.

America and Israel are more fascist than PRC??

If you can let your prejudices make such a comment like that, then you won't realize how hysterically knee-jerk this entire chiding analysis of yours is.

Overal, there is nothing more than wishful thinking to your supposed friendship with US. Given the history you share with US, there is more aggression.

More agression than in China's relationship with India??

Further, you really need to grow up, because it sounds to me as the "mine is better than yours" has this time become "they like me better than him" this is as intellectual as a playground fight.

I don't care about playground fights and I don't care about egos. I care about the safety and security of over a billion of my co-nationals.

And the depreciating comparison of probably the most significant conflict ever in the history of mankind, where the fate of over two and a half billion people hang under the threat of nuclear annialition, in your comparison to that of who gets to ride on the bloody merry-go-round shows your lack of understanding, naiveity and sadly enough ignorance about the geopolicy.


-Raj

[edit on 15-12-2004 by rajkhalsa2004]

Originally posted by COWlan
rajkhalsa2004 your talking BULLSH!T. Now. Would someone who actually has military equipment experience come and enlighten my friend rajkhalsa2004 here? Come because ignorance is polluting the air.

More hot air?

I'm still waiting for you to post a single fact.

Alright guys, who wants to ignore rajkhalsa2004 cause I'm doing so. Bhai Bhai.

P.S. Look at the language you have used and you critisize ours?