Christians help me debunk these non sense atheistic beliefs about Genesis please

Originally posted by jacktorrance
reply to post by rwfresh

 

Can i get a degree in Bible Wrongology?

No, but you could get a degree in theology.

I'm taking New Testament studies at my University. Why? Because it's fascinating. I plan on taking Old Testament, World Religions, and any other courses on learning about belief systems that a group of people (I may or may not agree with) hold dearly. Growing up in a religious household, it's very interesting to get another perspective on the matter.

I think it's great that it's taught - typically from a very academic, historically critical perspective - in a University setting.

I agree completely. It's a cool thing to have time to look into academically. But specifically assuming it's literal and writing books and thesis's on how it's not possible if we assume it literal, is silly in my opinion.. To each his own!

reply to post by ExNihilo


What is your point exactly?

You do understand that the Genesis is used by other religions too, right?

Also the Genesis employs metaphoric language so heavily that anyone can read anything they want in there. It more or less follows the same path as the New Testament.

The whole creation part of the Genesis has some interesting parallels with the Metatron’s Cube and sacred geometry. But personally I tend to look at the Genesis as half-baked crappy adaptation of the Sumerian texts and other sources. So it should only serve to make you search for where the information that is there was copied/adapted from.

Incredible, this thread have 11 pages and people have fallen for the OP bait, asking Christians to debunk atheist, well I am neither or, do not subscribe to any religion but I also got my personal believes.

It see that asking practicing Christian to debunk a Genesis issue, is like asking big pharma to explain why their drugs are so good, or asking Monspanto to tell people why their GMOs are better than organic foods.

reply to post by wildapache


There is great debates amongst the various sects of the Abrahamic faiths on how literally scripture is to be interpretted. Some sects read the bible literally, others take it as one big allegory and ascribe hardly any literal truth to it, others lie somewhere in the middle.

I agree with you in that there is probably at least a kernel historical truth to many of the biblical stories, but over time the literal truth may have been distorted by exageration, metaphor, embelishments, and other literary devices. If you belong to a sect that does not read the bible very literally, it probably does not bother you that Jesus did not actually walk on water or Moses did not actually part the Red Sea. If you belong to a sect that reads the bible literally, the mere suggestion that Jesus would get his hair wet if he set foot on the sea of Galilea or Moses needed a raft to get across the Red Sea is blashphemy and highly distrubing.

reply to post by rwfresh


And I agree with you on that point, as well.

I feel that any religious document taught in a public university setting should be taught strictly from an academic standpoint. Our professor told us "leave your faith at the door" which is great advice for his class.

It shouldn't be to pick apart a certain section and try to prove if it could or could not logically happen....I think most of us realize that the majority of stories in the Bible are metaphorical and would be out of the realm of possibility.

reply to post by jiggerj

TextThat said, shall we continue? Twice in this reply I noticed a statement on how god created darkness. This must mean evil, right? Because darkness can't be created; it is the absence of light. Right?

reply to post by jiggerj

jiggerj

I see now where you are coming from. I was not on the same page. Yes and no is my answer. Yes, I believe you are correct to interpret that darkness is the absence of light in this terrestrial world. A biologist would readily understand it that way as probably would any scientist. In other words it can be a metaphor to many people. Some of scripture does refer to this as lack of understanding also, so yes I agree with you.

The Genesis account says - Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. -----
This was before God started the other five days of creation. The sun is not even in the picture as yet so we know that this darkness is the absence of light. You are correct in that observation. This references this terrestrial world but not the celestial world. In other words this world was created in the darkness of the universe. The universe is empty at this time except for invisible dark matter. This empty universe with a chaotic dark world is what this starts with.

Then God said --
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Now the question is just what light is Moses talking about? He certainly is not talking about the sun because it won’t be introduced till another two days after this first day. We then have to rely upon outside literature for a plausible answer in this theology. That literature is Oral Torah and Kabala as well as the opinions of the ancients.

The Ancients in Kabala tells us that God created a void within Himself for this creation. He then opened a path in the unfinished north of the universe for his Shekinah or Primeval light. That is called the creation light which Moses is describing here. This celestial light was the light that marked day and night in the first three days of creation. This is why I said that God is light. He does not create light because He is light. In other words His glory is light to us. When I said that He created darkness is meant to say that when He created this universe He made it dark in our perception. We are created to understand it as dark and we are also created to perceive what we call light.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
By understanding this theology, I understand that this has nothing to do with the star which we call our sun. So actually time was marked three days before the sun replaced the Primeval light and continued to replace the Primeval light of that first day. If this is correct then the world was in rotation at the onset of creation.

Now this is not to say that we had seasons as yet but only light to darkness to light. Seasons came on the forth day as the sun became the life source of this world.

So this is the understanding that I have in the creation story. Without this Primeval light we would have no explanation for the very first day. This is why I said that God is light himself. My theological understanding is that if God were to disappear all of any existence would be dark to us. Simply because we are created to perceive darkness. In the celestial world there is no absence of light.

This is why John tells us that the New Jerusalem is pure light.--
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

The glory of God is believed to be that same glory of the creation light which we saw in Genesis .

I hope that this explains our theology a little more and even at this I cannot prove any of this with facts.

reply to post by Seede

Now the question is just what light is Moses talking about?

You are wrong about most of your ideas conserning verse 2.

Because in verse 1. God said he was going to create; the Heaven and the Earth. This basically means that in verse two Moses describes what nothingness would be like. A wast infinite dimension of nothingness. There existed no earth within the darkness.


In verse 3. God started he's creation by saying; Let there be light. Within this light is were Heaven and the Earth is being formed.
Within this light is the firmament which will form the Heaven and the Earth.

Genesis is by definition...Life from Lifelessness. On Earth...and there is a 100% Mathematical Probability that LIFE exists elsewhere in our GALAXY never mind the Universe or Multiverse.

This gives me great peace of mind as in all of HISTORY...there has NEVER been a case where something was proven to either exist or not exist that was not first proven by the MATH! Not ONCE...NOT EVER!

Because of my THIRD JOB...I know a certain fact. I wish I did not know but I do and this is that E.T. as well as Multiple Races of....are a FACT AND A REALITY! The U.S. Government of the late 1940's when Truman was President...appointed IKE to establish an AGENCY and this took time...to develop protocols with how to deal with anything to do with E.T.

As IKE became President...an event occurred that is PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE and anyone here can look it up. In the early 1950's Massive E.T. Craft Flyovers of WASHINGTON DC occurred and went on for weeks. To look this up a person must look at the various WASHINGTON DC NEWSPAPERS during this time that not only documented these massive E.T. Craft Flyovers of the U.S.'s most protected airspace but because the AGENCY that IKE had begun to develop had not fully created all possible protocols for dealing with events such as these...the Washington Papers were allowed to interview Military Leadership, Congressmen, Senators, Police and Fire Officials, Civil Defense and actually interviewed the President who VOWED to PROTECT THE NATIONS AIR SPACE! These E.T. Craft PLAYED with our Jet Pilots and the U.S. Military made sure to make it clear that these craft were not SOVIET and that the SOVIET UNION did not possess this level of Technology. Continued....
Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity
Continued....
Because these E.T. Craft Flyovers lasted several weeks...HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IF NOT MILLIONS of Americans witnessed these events. All of this is PUBLIC RECORD and although most people do not hear much about it...anyone here can Google the Washington Post or other Washington Newspapers and you must get the dates and look at the actual Newspaper Copy as all LINKS as well as Sites are purposely curtailed but they cannot curtail the actual News Paper Copies.

The U.S. Military as well as the U.S. Government was constantly promising the General Public that they would stop these Airspace Intrusions and all sorts of interviews by Scientists and the actual Pilots who attempted to shoot them down as well as a never ending CONSTANT REPETITION BY ALL MILITARY AND U.S. GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS THAT THESE WERE NOT THE SOVIETS! I would suggest anyone interested take the time and look this up.

This same E.T. Craft overflights occurred in the early 1960's and at one point the U.S. Air Force actually attached a NUCLEAR AIR TO AIR MISSILE on the wing of a F-104 Starfighter. These Air to Air Nuclear Missiles were designed to destroy large SOVIET Nuclear Bomber Formations over the OCEAN. The Fact this was done and the DANGER INVOLVED of having a Nuclear Warhead attached to the OUTSIDE of an F-104 cannot be understated. Thankfully...the President over ruled General Curtis LeMay's orders and the Mission was cancelled.

Again...all of this is PUBLIC INFORMATION. The reason I have posted this is because anyone can look it up and it will allow some of you to understand that LIFE is not UNIQUE and Humans are just a Voice in a Chorus. Knowing what I know...I have to laugh at the SHEER ARROGANCE of HUMANITY in looking at GENESIS or LIFE FROM LIFELESSNESS...as being something that some people consider as SO SPECIAL AND SO UNIQUE that we have multiple religions that place us as if we were the Center of the Universe as a Species...WE ARE NOT!

For those of you who doubt this...spend a bit of time and look up what I have posted. Remember...they have not made it easy and you have to Google the time when it took place and then Google the News Paper Headlines from Washington DC. This news was SO DISTURBING FOR SOME PEOPLE that many News papers from other States or parts of the Country would not run the story as they considered it too much for the readers to deal with...but in Washington DC...there was no getting away from it as people saw it happening every day and night.
There is a reason this happened...TWICE...if anyone want's to know they can ask me in a Private Message.

I will promise people this...I will only tell you the FACTS. I will provide the places and the way to look up the proof. I will not LIE and I will not play games! I only want to OPEN UP PEOPLES EYES so they can stop arguing over PETTY DIFFERENCES. There is so much going on and the PROOF is PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE and this is the BIGGEST STORY THAT HAS EVER BEEN FORGOTTEN! Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Such as that seems like the Skunk Works testing their new planes . I believe it was admitted that the plane everybody saw from passenger jets was the F117 after the Gulf War . The distances from the nearest possible planet from which aliens could come from is too far at the speed of light for a life form to travel . From what we know the speed of light is the fastest that you can travel and that is at the speed of pure energy . We have never received a reply to our deep space queries . Again the bible did stare that Elijah was taken up on a fiery chariot around 2500 years ago .

reply to post by SimonPeter

An Alien Race would not be traveling to Earth using conventional methods. They would be using a Gravitic Drive by which Space/Time is Folded or Warped. This allows for travel by One Dimensional means. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Do you think that it is possible these alleged aliens possibly could be the GOD of the bible from the heavens above . And the technology you mentioned has not been proven to exist .

reply to post by SimonPeter

I honestly don't know what the Bible may have been associated with but as far as the Tech...the Math backs it up.
Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


You might actually read the bible and associate it with what you see that is so big and coming . After all you do watch fiction on TV and I'm sure read much fictional literature . What is another book ?It could be interesting .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

You might actually read the bible and associate it with what you see that is so big and coming . After all you do watch fiction on TV and I'm sure read much fictional literature . What is another book ?It could be interesting .

Fiction on TV? What exactly do you refer to? As far as the Bible...I have read it although I am not one to quote it. The Bible is a good Moral Teaching Tool and I do not take the stories literally. The Bible has been mistranslated many times over the ages. There are many issues such as Moses Crossed the REED SEA not Parted the RED SEA...even the Vatican has admitted this mistranslation.

I respect other peoples right to their Religious Beliefs but this is a Forum for Debate and if I notice a person who is overly upset about what others believe...I know that person has a very Weak Faith. Split Infinity

reply to post by ExNihilo


OP makes some valid and witty criticisms of a book
mostly contrived in some ancient millennia . I'm sure God would
disown some of it , if He could really care less .

TextYou are wrong about most of your ideas conserning verse 2. Because in verse 1. God said he was going to create; the Heaven and the Earth. This basically means that in verse two Moses describes what nothingness would be like. A wast infinite dimension of nothingness. There existed no earth within the darkness.

reply to post by spy66


Spy66

The Masoretic Hebrew text says --
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

That is very well stated and some years ago that was what I had been taught. After being taught by a Christian Rabbi, I then understood both theologies. I do understand your point of view and it is well taken. You take this to mean that verses 1 & 2 pertain to the preparation of creating while the creation actually started in verse 3. You may be absolutely correct.

The apostle John states that there are at least 3 heavens in his understanding of heaven.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
The third heaven is where the New Jerusalem is and which is located outside of this universe.

The first heaven is that which we call our atmosphere and extends from our earth to about 350
miles above the earth. This heaven is the heaven which was created in the second day by
dividing the waters which surrounded the earth. This is why Genesis 1:2 says –----------
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

At this time there was no dry land. The creation was a mass of mud and darkness. We had no
space, at this time, to call atmosphere. The first heaven did not exist till the firmament was
separated and created our first heaven. This mass of mud was created before light was given in
this universe. By this I was taught that the universe (second heaven) was created and then the
earth.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

At this time there was only one heaven and that was the universe. Actually the first heaven is the second heaven to be created. The second heaven is that which extends into and engulfs the universe. Naturally this world and atmosphere are also engulfed in this universe but for identification purposes any thing above the 360 mile atmosphere is considered the second heaven.

So in effect (for our understanding), we have two boundaries of our heavens to consider. Genesis 1:1,2 teaches that God created the heaven and earth. Heaven here is meant the second heaven which we call the universe. Note that Moses said "heaven and not heavens" -- The atmosphere has not been created yet.

Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Heaven here is meant the second heaven. That is where stars are located. That would be the universe.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
This heaven is meant as the third heaven where the angels dwell.

Our first heaven of atmosphere was created when God divided the firmaments but this first heaven was not created till the second day. By this it is taught that this first heaven (firmament) could not be the (in the beginning) heaven that Moses wrote. The second heaven must be the (in the beginning) heaven which is described in Genesis 1. This would be known to us today as the universe. This is why I said that our earth was created in darkness of this second heaven that we call the universe.

Now Spy66, I have a question.
How could this world be created after the light was introduced and for what reason would it be shown? .Wouldn’t you have to have a world to rotate before the light was shown? Also if the world was created and there was darkness (absence of light) would not that tell you that the world was in a dark universe without light? Then if the world was in darkness and without light, how could it have been created after the light?
Thanks for teasing my old mind Spy66 and God Bless you

reply to post by Seede


A very interesting read indeed I am very fasinated by how things are understood by different people.

Now Spy66, I have a question.
How could this world be created after the light was introduced and for what reason would it be shown? .Wouldn’t you have to have a world to rotate before the light was shown? Also if the world was created and there was darkness (absence of light) would not that tell you that the world was in a dark universe without light? Then if the world was in darkness and without light, how could it have been created after the light?
Thanks for teasing my old mind Spy66 and God Bless you.

In verse three, when God said ; Let there be light.

You question is: how can the world come out from this light?

Well first, the light is a result of a compression of energy. A compression of energies create heat. And a very strong compression will create enough heat to create a very bright light. We all know that if we pack enough energy we can create solids/plasma. If the light is very bright you wont be able to see the core the light is emitte from. Moses was never able to see what the light was made up of in verse 3. Moses just saw the light.

When it comes to rotation, i can tell you have it happened. But earth didnt start to rotate straight away. Because the plasma that created the light in verse 3. Is to hot and a long cooling prosess had to take place first. The cooling prosess is also by some explained as a; ekspansion. Or like you explained it; The creation of the different heavanes. Earth is still a hot dense part of this plasma, as is the rest of the universe. Things haven't been separated yet.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Not so my friend ! But this is a debating forum isn't it .

TextYou question is: how can the world come out from this light?

reply to post by spy66


spy66

I enjoy the information that you have given me and believe me you give a lot to think about.

Read this verse very carefully.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
That verse says (to me) that this earth was in darkness without this form that it has now. In order for this earth to be in darkness it had to be created before light was declared. If that is true and it was created before the light, then how could it be created after the light or because of the light? I understood you as saying that the creation started after the light and that Genesis 1:1- 2 were only descriptive verses before creation began.