When Roe v Wade is overturned, what will punishment be for the crime of abortion?

After searching ATS for existing threads on this topic, I found two from over two years ago, and they were under a political forum, and they drifted into areas not intended for this thread in this forum.

Two years ago until now, the overturning of Roe v Wade seemed to be far off or an impossibility, and discussion of punishment had the luxury of dealing with that time frame. That is no longer the case.

If the Republican ticket is voted into office in November, there exists the real possibility for RvW to be overturned, and the states will then legislate abortion laws. I see this happening because of the following three reasons...

1) Romney said this

“I would love the Supreme Court to say, ‘Let’s send this back to the states,’” he said. “Rather than having a federal mandate through Roe v. Wade, let the states again consider this issue state by state.”

source

and he will have the power to pick new Supreme Court justices if the need arises.

2. With the pick of Paul Ryan for VP (who would be a heartbeat away from becoming POTUS with the above power), the signal is sent to the base that the goal of overturning RvW is within reach.

Personhood USA Praises Paul Ryan's Pro-Life Record Following Doubts Over Romney

3. The GOP 2012 platform will be voted on to include

"We assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children."

...

We should note that the current wording in the GOP platform has been in place at least since 2004. Republican candidates have run on that platform and have endorsed exceptions for abortion in cases of rape and incest. As PolitiFact has reported before, since about 2000, the human life amendments introduced in Congress have included those exceptions, too.

However in 2008, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., failed in an effort to include the rape and incest exceptions in the platform itself. Also, O’Steen says while the National Right to Life Committee has endorsed Romney, the "ideal policy would have an exception to protect the health of the mother only."

source


While not every state would outlaw abortion...

The Center for Reproductive Rights also predicts that some states that don’t have bans now will institute them if the Supreme Court gives them the authority. In all, the center estimates that 21 states are likely to outlaw abortion immediately. This assessment is based not only on current law, but on the political makeup of the state legislatures.

According to the center, those states are: Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wisconsin.

source

This thread is NOT about debating abortion or about the politics of abortion. It is intended only for the discussion of the social impact of no more RvW.


So, when abortions are outlawed, what will happen to girls and women who become criminals by self-inducing an abortion? What will be the punishment for this crime?

When certain forms of birth control are outlawed, because they are abortifacients, what forms of birth control will the state allow? What will be the punishment for girls/women caught using such methods illegally?

The punishment will be death in back alley practices.

It will not be overturned.

I like to think we still have checks and balances built into the system and there are many steps that have to be taken before anyone can overturn a Supreme Court decision.

Regardless of how people feel about abortion, it will be a sad day when we allow religious belief to trump the rights of individuals.

I also find it funny that a pro-abortion Democrat like Romney has now become a pro-life Republican......only in America.

Originally posted by iforget The punishment will be death in back alley practices.

edit on 8/27/2012 by iforget because: (no reason given)

Well, you're right in that it's going to happen whether it's legal or not. At least we should let women go to their doctor instead of a meeting with a coat hanger.

IF Roe V. Wade is overturned....(and the President has nothing to do with it, the Super Court does this exclusively), then Abortion will NOT be outlawed. I don't know where people come up with that as some automatic outcome.

If people have state government they haven't paid much attention to voting for or who is making their STATE laws, then people have something to worry about.

Roe V Wade simply throws it back to each state to determine individually, how their laws will be within their own borders. Much like almost ALL the laws we live under now. Very few of the laws we really bitch about come out of Washington anyway.

Some states will outlaw it...and I imagine most will find a balance between wide open to teenagers in high school...and outright illegal. Somewhere in those radical extremes probably lay where it needs to be anyway, IMO.

I'm sure there are many crazies who'd like to see them fried for the terrible crime of having a clump of cells scraped from their insides. And I'm sure those same crazies would have the nerve to proudly declare themselves 'pro-life'.

reply to post by sheepslayer247


Why do you automatically assume a stance against elective abortion religious? For me personally it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with killing innocent human life simply because you can.

As for the OP, what do we do to people who kill their children now? It would make sense that the laws which apply to killing one's children would then apply to those who abort electively.

reply to post by desert


When? Yeah right . I honestly do not see the GOP winning this round, they have a crappy ticket, and their crazies keep digging deeper holes over rape. Even IF it was sent to the "individual states", people travel, hells there is always Canada. Oh and what happened with separation of church and state? I remember reading about that somewhere

reply to post by EndlessFire


I do not assume that all stances against abortion are religious, but the OP said this:

If the Republican ticket is voted into office in November, there exists the real possibility for RvW to be overturned, and the states will then legislate abortion laws. I see this happening because of the following three reasons...

The Republican ticket is pro-life based on religious reasons and I was simply speaking to that.

There are others that are pro-life that do not base it on religion. I understand that.

ETA: You used the word "elective". What are you thoughts on abortion when certain medical issues arise?

reply to post by iforget


Some might say that that would be punishment enough, but what of those who do not die?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Correct re how RvW would be overturned.
I found this also...

There are three ways Roe v. Wade, (1973) can be overturned:

Since Roe vs. Wade was a Supreme Court decision, the Supreme Court can effectively overturn the decision by ruling against abortion in a future case.

Congress can pass legislation protecting the fetus from the moment of conception (There are usually several bills addressing this issue in committee during each Congressional term. The 111th Congress (current) includes three House Resolutions and one Senate bill.).

Congress and the states can amend the Constitution to include the definition of "person" to include the unborn (this is the least likely scenario).

source

As stated in thread post, abortion would be a crime in certain states, not necessarily nationally.

Originally posted by desert

Correct re how RvW would be overturned.


As stated in thread post, abortion would be a crime in certain states, not necessarily nationally.

Op, I have to say, I salute you. You're taking on one of the most contentious and combative topics our nation has had since Roe V. Wade was decided. Few other topics have outright cost people their lives, right here in America, for simply speaking their minds and practicing medicine as the LAW says is legal and proper.

Further...and why I tip my hat, you took a comment from me that was accurate, but wouldn't matter one bit to MANY in this debate. The mere suggestion of my words alone would have been 'war on'...and I honestly figured this would be a one post thread to toss a factoid or two out for the debate...and then watch it devolve to where I wouldn't want anything to do with even posting a follow-up.

I don't have to fully agree to respect people on THIS topic, of all topics, who can debate with an open mind and even temper. That's a rare thing when Abortion comes up on either side!

reply to post by desert


I don't think the the GOP really want's to overturn Roe v Wade. They are only paying lip service to their Right wing Fundamentalist Republican members. The GOP platform is about as meaningless as the DNC was when their platform came out against the wars and patriot act.

I do however expect federal funds to be drastically cut back on all types of women's health issues. If the GOP prevails.

I don't think they have a chance in hell of getting elected with out the women's vote and even conservative women want a "choice"

It's just all empty rhetoric.

but....in theory if R v W was overturned the punishment for women guilty of murder of a child [as they put it] would be life in prison or death by lethal injection.

reply to post by desert


You don't understand. it would simply go underground the same way it use to be way back. So it would be back to back alley abortions. You'd rather have that?

reply to post by olaru12
It doesn't matter which side is elected, draconian cuts are coming and what we think or like has absolutely nothing to do with it. The printing presses can't make the bad books look right forever and when the presses stop, so does our over-extended luck and quality of life for the near term future.

I DO agree that seeing Roe v. Wade overturned is near fantasy by anyone involved. The court isn't likely yo take a case and has no practical NEED to anyway. I haven't heard them suggest regret over how the first decision went so far that they'd want to jump into that mud pit again.

Congress can pass laws protecting or restricting....and those will stand as far as the Courts allow them to, based on Roe v Wade, IMO. That is to say....not very far.

Constitutional Amendment is always a possibility but in this day of 50/50 voting margins with enough hate to raise the dead behind BOTH sides....that's got as much chance as a snow cone stand turning profits in hell. Thousands of amendments have been tried since our Nation came to be.... Exactly 27 have actually passed...and at least one of THOSE was repealed within years. Not much for odds that Abortion makes #28.

reply to post by Noinden


Re voting. It all depends WHO votes, the vote count, and eventually the electoral college (although a Supreme Court decision could also affect the outcome).

Re travel... only if the individual or family has the money and means to go out of state, let alone out of country.
Hmmmm, could a state prosecute a citizen of that state for obtaining an abortion out of state, especially if the state enacts personhood laws?

reply to post by desert


Feed them to the prison system. Clearly the prison system is a vault of morality. Force them as felons to grow food to feed all the children that we let starve or go malnourished. Then have them dig graves for the prisoners we condemn.

That should at least learn them irony. Ha irony handy for a woman

I hope a lot of people understand that the last people who want Roe v. Wade to be overturned are the politicians who shout the loudest for it to be overturned. The anti-choice movement is one of the biggest contributors to their campaigns and have been for years now.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Thank you, Wrabbit.

I was an adult before RvW, so I can remember the before and after. Sometimes, we Americans forget the flow of our own history. It is precisely because of our Constitution and those who interpret it through judicial wisdom, that has given us our history as well as our day to day lives. And kept the states a Union, to the point of our own land being devastated and bloodied to preserve it.

We forget our Constitution has been amended and parts repealed. We forget that we change.

If we like the changes, we keep them, until they are changed. We have laws based on the Constitution, but, even if the highest, final court of the land, the Supreme Court, makes a decision, such decision can be, although rarely, reversed, through the court process.

This is why, for Americans, democracy must be a verb. Nothing is ever settled completely.

Roe v Wade can indeed be changed, And since 1973, I have never seen a point as now, where it is a real possibility for a change, a reversal, to happen in the near future. This is why I started this thread, to see how my fellow Americans will handle the change, especially in regards to how they want to see their girls and women punished for a crime. This is the new debate. The abortion debate is over.

In most states, self induced abortion is already illegal.

Here are a couple examples

South Carolina

Code Section

44-41-10 to 85

Statutory Definition of Illegal Abortion

(1) Failure to meet standards for legal abortion; (2) self-abortion that does not meet standards for legal abortion; (3) use of instrument, medicine, drug, or other substance or device with intent to terminate pregnancy for reasons other than to increase probability of a live birth, preserve child's life or health, or to remove a dead fetus. Partial Birth abortion: physician performing is guilty of a felony and subject to $5,000 fine and/or no less than 5 years in prison except when performed to save life of mother endangered by physical disorder, illness, or injury when no other medical procedure would suffice.

New York

Penal §125.05, §125.20, §125.40-60; Pub. Health §4164
Statutory Definition of Illegal Abortion

(1) Failure to meet standards for legal abortion; (2) if causes mother to die; (3) if not within first 24 weeks; (4) administering or taking drugs or any other manner with intent to cause a miscarriage

Statutory Definition of Legal Abortion

Within first 24 weeks or necessary to preserve mother's life; if mother performs abortion it must be on the advice of M.D. within the first 24 weeks or to preserve her own life

Penalty for Unlawful Abortion

If not justifiable abortional act and after 24 wks., Class E or D felony; if woman dies from act, Class B felony; self-abortion or issuing abortion articles, Class B or A misdemeanor

And people have even been charged:

abcnews.go.com...

New York City police charged a 20-year-old woman with first-degree self-abortion after she allegedly terminated her pregnancy by ingesting an herbal drink

Since overturning RvW would just give the final say back to the States, I would assume the penalties would stay as they are in the states right now...since they already have the power to punish self abortions.

I personally do not think abortions should be allowed after a certain time of Fetus Development...but then again...it is not my body.

If Morning After Pills were made available much more easily...I believe this would go a long way in the number of abortions that are performed. The fact that something is living does not constitute Murder as Sperm and an Egg are already alive...as is a clump of cells that is growing.

The real question is at what term is a fetus sentient? Still...as I have said...not my body and not my or anyone else's decision.
Split Infinity