Animals Are As With-it as Humans (Animals Are Conscious)

reply to post by purplemer


I guess I am a bully then. I like others, love nature, but have no problem killing something in order to feed myself. And I do believe that it should be done as quickly as possible as I am not a fan of purposely letting something suffer for no reason.

Funny I stumbled on this thread while my wife was watching the mysteries of the animal mind on the cbc.


nature of things


Personally I have always had more respect and compassion for animals . I have found wild animals are at times more human than human with feral children that have been taken in and raised as their own with their own off spring for example. But food is food and we need to eat if only we could kill only enough for what we need , sadly there there is so much wasted for nothing .

Women like Meat: The Folklore and Foraging Ideology ... www.jstor.org/stable/220787 Women Like Meat is a double entendre: bushman women (the compound term is used by Megan Biesele) enjoy meat, and women are akin to meat.

Megan Biesele 1993. Women Like Meat. The folklore and foraging ideology of the Kalahari Ju/’hoan. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, pp. 124-138. pdf

From this day at the spring, paralleled by the day at the branding camp, animals are just animals and no longer have human characteristics. From then on they have gone their separate ways. The initiatory theme of the menstrual rite in this story is similarly echoed in the branding story: ‘These pretty ones are the ones who will turn into meat animals.’ The branding deals with the young boys’ structural equivalent of the menstrual rite, their ceremony of the first kill. Both stories stress the themes of individuation and right relationship to the adult social world that are so important in the initiations for both sexes. Etymological connections between the words used in both contexts are evidence, further, that initiation, the process of becoming full human beings, is symbolised in both these stories? Fully adult men thus have their origin in fire. Before they are branded with fire they are little boys. Afterwards, they are hunters, with all that this implies of adult social responsibilities. Women, on the other hand, originate in water. Their fecundity is connected with seclusion in a watery place, and as they emerge from this place as established childbearers the social world around them falls into its rightful order.

There's a secret initiation that's not understood by modern humanity.

The iron power in meat and in blood as menstruation is called "yang chi" in Taoist yoga alchemy -- it is the secret of heart love consciousness. Females are "yang" internally while males are "yin" internally.

So for the male to be a true man he has to learn to be "yang" internally also like a female and so the man activates the vagus nerve to ionize the iron energy of the blood to create electromagnetic energy that is transmitted out of the pineal gland.

This is holographic consciousness spirit healing.

Toward what I believed to be the end of the evening, Xaxe, a great hunter, healer, and shaman, laid hands on me....I felt the energy, his energy, surge through my body. He had his hands on me for about twenty-five or thirty seconds, but it felt like he had only touched me for a split second. Time stood still. I literally had a short out of body experience. I could see him touching me from just above my body, almost like I was floating six feet off the ground, watching myself. All of a sudden I was back in my body observing an image of him thumbing through the book that contained all the pictures and moments in my life. I saw images of my childhood I hadn't remembered in years, pictures of my mother and me walking on a beach and shelling, very strong images. At the time, both during his touch and immediately afterward, I described it as him flipping through the pages of my life....Later the next morning, I spoke with Xaxe about the trance dance. He told me he wanted access to me in a way that was not possible through a translator....Xaxe's curiosity was such a caring, loving gesture....When he detached from me it felt like someone was unplugging a lamp from a wall socket. As he let go of me and continued to dance around the fire, I spontaneously burst into uncontrollable tears....I had been stripped to my emotional core, completely stunned by what I had witnessed so up close and personal.151

151 Andrew Zimmern, The Bizarre Truth: how I walked out the door mouth first – and came back shaking my head (Random House, 2009), 234-5.

So that's real consciousness unknown by modern humans.



So the females need the meat to replace the iron lost by menstruation.

The males in turn hunt meat for half of the month and then return at the full moon when the females are ovulating with the strongest N/om energy that is transmitted by the female voice. This is emotional electrochemical energy as N/om energy that is sucked up by the males and then transformed into !Xia as trance laser biophoton holographic consciousness which is then transmitted back to the females as healing energy. So the males have no contact with the females for half of the month while the males are fasting -- so they then increase their electromagnetic !Xia energy for hunting animals.

In other words the males hunt animals to feed to the females and then the males also hunt females in order to heal the females as love healing. This is the secret cycle of consciousness called by anthropologist Chris Knight -- the "human conspiracy" -- you can read his "Blood Relations" tome - Chris Knight's webpage on the origins of human consciousness

The point of departure is an economic finding: unlike non-human primates when they engage in hunting, human hunters normatively do not eat their own kills. This apparent self-denial, it is argued, is best seen as an expression of a cultural universal, the sexual division of labour, in which women obtain meat which their sexual partners have secured. It is suggested that the female sex may have played a part in the establishment of this arrangement, and – in particular – that menstrual bleeding may have been central to its symbolic underpinnings. In this context, a model of the “initial situation” for human culture is proposed. In this, menstrual bleeding is (a) socially synchronised and (b) marks a periodic feminine sexual withdrawal (in effect, a “sex-strike”) functioning to motivate and regularize male periodic hunting. On a symbolic level, menstrual blood is identified with the blood of game animals, a generalised avoidance of blood ensuring both a periodic separation of sexual partners (necessary for effective hunting) and the separation of hunters as consumers from their own kills (necessary to ensure economic circulation and exchange of the produce).

Menstruation and the Origins of Culture -- pdf

Then, when a game animal was wounded or killed by men, its bloody flesh rendered it “taboo” to those who had hunted it. By using blood to indicate “we are not available”, women ensured that no game animals could be immediately eaten by the men who had killed them. This was because the meat was “bleeding” – i.e. symbolically “menstruating” – and therefore “taboo” as food. The thesis cites evidence for the widespread avoidance by men of their own kills – and the widespread equation of menstrual with animal blood – in traditional hunter-cultures.

S&F for an interesting thread. Not much to add to its current direction, but I also find comparative psychology interesting & thought that if anyone else is interested, these wikis are a good start...

von Economo Neurons

Affective Neuroscience

I've got news for you, animals are MORE with it than humans. When was the last time you saw an animal go off to a 9-5 slave-wage gig? Do animals pay taxes? Do animals slaughter each other at the behest of corporations? Do animals have to pay to live on the planet that they were born on? Now lets think about plants for a moment, they've figured a way to get you to eat it's fruit, take it's seeds into your system, transport the seeds some distance away and plant the seed already encased in fertilizer and thereby use you to promelgate the species. Pretty slick huh?

reply to post by smyleegrl


I have so many animal stories (all kinds) being aware.

They also fear death.

I've watched a cow, Molly, stand over her stillborn calf and cry............yes cows can cry.

I've petted a wild wolf, after first asking him if I could or was he planning on eating me as he was a lot bigger than me (I was around 11). He laid down, and presented his tummy to me and gave me an expression that clearly showed no malice.

I've had squirrels knock on my back door during the winter when their feeder was out of food, three knocks just like a person.

In the summer when I came out of my back door, there is a tree limb hanging right over my back door and I heard a squirrel chattering to me, he / she? was right above me and was saying "Good morning" (Spring).

The many dogs and cats I've had have all talked to me. They tell me exactly what they want and need.

I try not to eat a lot of meat. We get our chicken from a farmer who lets his animals roam in nice pastures. I don't support factory farming if I can help it.

Yes they are aware, more aware than people want to give them credit for.

A really really good book to read is Dominion by Michael Scully.



Everyone that replies to this thread has their own life experiences.

For me, I have found many animals to be kinder, more human than many humans.

Now a few minutes ago my husband and son were talking about going on our dog's daily w.a.l.k. (they spell too by the way) and I said, oh it's drizzling outside maybe I won't go but do the treadmill............Lucy actually came over and started making a dog noise, trying to talk, telling me very clearly - "Oh but we want you to come too mama."

So, out in the drizzle we will go, all five of us (the whole pack).

Damn, can't get away with anything.

To anyone questioning this, you simply have never lived with a dog.

Our two can count and measure (look out if one gets more than the other).

If you scratch, hug, pet and kiss one, the other MUST get the exact same amount of affection.

They can tell time............let me be late with their breakfast or dinner, they come get me and tell me.

They even bring me their water bowl if it's empty.

Lucy shakes with lightening and thunder............thank goodness it's just cloudy and drizzling today.

Lucy was rescued from a high kill shelter. She was due to be thrown into a gas box at 9 AM. At 3:40 AM She was taken out of cage #2 and rescued. She sat in a corner for the next two days not eating or drinking, just shaking because she knew how close she was to the green door.

The other day was a rough day, can't remember what upset me now, but I went out on the back deck and sat down on a chair, Scruffy jumped up on my lap and took his paw and gently rubbed my cheek, (petting me?) telling me "everything is going to be okay, I love you."

Again as I held Sinbad's head in my lap while he was euthanized, he knew and feared death just like a person would.

So many animal stories, I could tell you. I never cease to be amazed how compassionate and conscious animals are..........some more than "humans".

People don't want to believe they are conscious because then they would have to take moral responsibility and it's easier to just say, "they're stupid animals".

I've lived on a farm and yes they are conscious beings.

No they can't do algebra or make weapons of mass destruction, they usually only kill to survive and not for pleasure.

And, all dogs do go to Heaven.



I've been fortunate enough to swim with a pod of dolphins, met and pet a wild wolf, have a wild deer come up to me, a baby stingray and a host of other animals.

I think they can smell certain emotions we feel because with each emotion we secrete a certain smell and maybe I secrete a I won't hurt you smell????

My grand daughter was sitting at our picnic table and eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and a sparrow landed on the table right next to her and she picked off some of her bread and set it down for the bird. He/she took it and flew away..............she says animals come around her a lot too because they know she won't hurt them.

They are more aware than most realize.

And yes, just like some people, there are animals that aren't as aware but my dogs and cats have been very much aware and conscious.

reply to post by ofhumandescent

I have so many animal stories (all kinds) being aware.

Me, too...thanks for sharing your stories.
They are totally aware. The other day I found a hatchling in my kitchen that one of my cats brought in to "play with"....
I confiscated it from her, and tried to give it med-dropper mix of fish food and water....

it died. I felt bad.

I could write an entire book about my experiences with animal intelligence and communication.

Yeah, they get it. And, lots of them think we are stupid.

Just sayin'

We don't even treat some humans in humane ways, i'm not sure this declaration will work to ensure the same for animals. I do my best to treat animals the way I would like to be treated, but that only goes so far when a million others would kill it with no questions asked.

Hi SG. Still reading through this thread but thought I'd put this in after reading just the first few posts. I sure hope they aren't as aware as what we are. Becaue I reckon the worst thing to be aware of is death. Just lost my son's pet cat. A magic little thing that followed me around and sat with me while I put the clothes on the line. Thinking that he would have been aware that he wansn't going to be able to do that, and also get the treats we gave him to nibble on is a real sad thought. I reckon animals are on a good thing not being aware of such things. But I do agree that kindnes towards all life is a good thing. Guess I must be part Hindu or Budhist or something. Just my thoughts

Cheers

Steve

reply to post by smyleegrl


About a week and a half ago I planted a thornless blackberry bush out in the backyard. It was very hot and dry out. So it was a gamble. I watered it and it has since began to rain a little here. Anyway, this bush is important to me. Actually every plant I put in the ground has significance and causes emotion for me. Some die, and it makes me sad. This morning was a particularly emotional morning for me. (just overwhelmed with thoughts of people from the past) . I was having cofee and crying (what a weenie) and decided to go encourage the transplant. When I got over to it I noticed our little 'weenie' dog had left a 'present' at the base of the blackberry. Did he know how important the plant is to me and intentionally try to help with fertilization? This dog has been a severe pain to me in the past, but now I love him dearly, even before this mornings 'coincidence'. I have had many dogs. I loved them all, they were my ONLY friends at times, also I have had to put many dogs down. (never fun). It would be so cool to think that Co Co wanted to help and actually loves me. Tears.....

Peace

Originally posted by psyko4570
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

When I got over to it I noticed our little 'weenie' dog had left a 'present' at the base of the blackberry. Did he know how important the plant is to me and intentionally try to help with fertilization?

Nah I am sure that present was just for you lol

reply to post by smyleegrl


This article couldn't be any more fanatical in it's over-zealousness and superficiality.. With as many scientists that are "for" this claim that animals are as conscious as us - there are probably double or even more scientists that are against it. And to boot, realize the political nature of these claims.

And why be against it? Because the consciousness of animals is almost wholly instinctual.

Here's an example. Man has the freedom of will to disobey an outer determinant i.e. an instinct. He can say no to that instinct and in so doing exercise true self determination.

An animal CANNOT, in no way shape or form disobey an instinct. At most, an animal can be instructed - again, from without (since all extincts act from without inward) - to restrict it's behavior and so deny an instinct. But this again is nothing more than another instinct, or impulse, ingrained from without by an outer agent.

Animals possess no conscious freedom as man does. Furthermore, mans apprehension of the world around him is obviously more evolved and sophisticated than any creature that exists. A dog looking at a man is a good analogy for mans own concept of God (which could be an explanation for why dog and God are reversals of each other); a dog cannot conceive of the world that man lives in, and likewise, man cannot conceive of a universe in which moral actions have definite consequences. We only believe that - but we can never know it (at least at our current experience)

As Hegel argued, animals cannot have rights because to have rights necessities the ability to reflect on rights: And animals cannot do that. This of course doesn't mean that we shouldn't treat them with love and care, but neither should we accord imaginary abilities that they do not possess and in doing make man coequal with animals - which we are not.

To be honest. This is the pure and unabashed politicization of science, and its a mockery of true science. These people want man to be no more than animals, and in so doing, find the 'evidence' to subvert traditional moral beliefs. The new movie "unity" - just to show how widespread this onslaught is - seeks to convince us that man is 'equal' with animals and plants. That we are no more and no less than these other organisms. Is this not the greatest insult to man?? The very creature able to make such a claim seeks to dethrone his specialness: why? What for?? Because a man who is nothing more than another appendage of nature should not seek to be anything more: again, it challenges the old Judeo-Christian moral order which bases itself upon the idea that man - and man alone - is made in the image of the divine.

Originally posted by IntoxicatingMadness
I imagine that being conscious simply means being aware of your existance. Are we debating that animal are going through the motions?

I have always contented there is a threshold crossed in levels of consciousness when it is demonstrated that an animal dreams. It clearly means there are pictures they are inside of, meaning they are aware they exist.

reply to post by smyleegrl


All animals equally will love and feel a part of a human family if given the chance. they are loyal and intelligent people just would rather eat them I guess.

Originally posted by tkwasny

Originally posted by IntoxicatingMadness
I imagine that being conscious simply means being aware of your existance. Are we debating that animal are going through the motions?

I have always contented there is a threshold crossed in levels of consciousness when it is demonstrated that an animal dreams. It clearly means there are pictures they are inside of, meaning they are aware they exist.

How do you go from "It clearly means there are pictures they are inside of" to "meaning they are aware they exist."... How do you figure that an animals experiencing a dream implies a knowledge of what they are experiencing - or even having the ability to reflect on the distinction between the dream state and the normal waking state?

None of this is deducible from an animals ability to dream! Everyone knows dogs and cats dream. My dog dreams all the time. But I have never been so presumptuous to think that because she dreams she knows she dreams..

It is sad how few people here read or know how to conduct a proper argument. The ability to reflect implies a knowledge of the object reflected upon. If a dog knows she dreams, than it could be argued that a dog has some subtle presence of self consciousness i.e. knowledge of ones own individuality. But I have never seen such experiments. In fact, every experiment trying to show the presence of self consciousness in animals - since this is a prerequisite to giving them rights, and so a major interest of animal rights activists - has ended up a dismal failure. Every times it's shown that the animal is only doing what it's been instructed to do; that instead of self conscious decision, it's mere mimicry of human beings.

Again, an animal cannot go against instinct. It's a law recognized thousands of years, repeated by some of the greatest philosophers, and defended by all sane and rational people till this day.

This idiocy of giving them rights - when the don't even recognize what rights are - unfortunately, has yet to been seen for the politicization of science that it is.

reply to post by Char-Lee


Yep.
I see bacon, ham, sausage, pork chops, spare ribs, scrapple and puddin' meat in the first pic. Not sure about the second pic, I've never eaten warthog.

We had pigs that we made pets out of when I was a child. They are clean and intelligent, as farm animals go. I could let Sally out of the barn and have her walk along with me in our yard. I was five years old, she weighed over 300 pounds at that point. I would scratch her side and she would lie down for me to scratch her belly. When I told her, she would go back in the barn and I would latch the door behind her.

We ate her too.

Reply to post by ofhumandescent

Yea you are taking this too far. While animals are conscious and can make good companions at the end of the day, they are still animals. Still slaves to their basic instincts. The biggest mistake a person can make is forgetting that an animal is an animal. I suggest you watch the documentary Grizzly Man if you havent seen it.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by dontreally

Originally posted by tkwasny

Originally posted by IntoxicatingMadness
I imagine that being conscious simply means being aware of your existance. Are we debating that animal are going through the motions?

I have always contented there is a threshold crossed in levels of consciousness when it is demonstrated that an animal dreams. It clearly means there are pictures they are inside of, meaning they are aware they exist.

How do you go from "It clearly means there are pictures they are inside of" to "meaning they are aware they exist."... How do you figure that an animals experiencing a dream implies a knowledge of what they are experiencing - or even having the ability to reflect on the distinction between the dream state and the normal waking state?

None of this is deducible from an animals ability to dream! Everyone knows dogs and cats dream. My dog dreams all the time. But I have never been so presumptuous to think that because she dreams she knows she dreams..

It is sad how few people here read or know how to conduct a proper argument. The ability to reflect implies a knowledge of the object reflected upon. If a dog knows she dreams, than it could be argued that a dog has some subtle presence of self consciousness i.e. knowledge of ones own individuality. But I have never seen such experiments. In fact, every experiment trying to show the presence of self consciousness in animals - since this is a prerequisite to giving them rights, and so a major interest of animal rights activists - has ended up a dismal failure. Every times it's shown that the animal is only doing what it's been instructed to do; that instead of self conscious decision, it's mere mimicry of human beings.

Again, an animal cannot go against instinct. It's a law recognized thousands of years, repeated by some of the greatest philosophers, and defended by all sane and rational people till this day.

This idiocy of giving them rights - when the don't even recognize what rights are - unfortunately, has yet to been seen for the politicization of science that it is.

I merely wanted to be brief and not go into a 2-foot wall of text. I was not trying to make a case so as to convince others. If it was my intention to do so I would have presented a logically progressive line of facts.

I was only stating my conclusions to myself without any intent of convincing anyone of anything.

I apologize if it hit some nerve in you.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Char-Lee

 

Yep.
I see bacon, ham, sausage, pork chops, spare ribs, scrapple and puddin' meat in the first pic. Not sure about the second pic, I've never eaten warthog.

We had pigs that we made pets out of when I was a child. They are clean and intelligent, as farm animals go. I could let Sally out of the barn and have her walk along with me in our yard. I was five years old, she weighed over 300 pounds at that point. I would scratch her side and she would lie down for me to scratch her belly. When I told her, she would go back in the barn and I would latch the door behind her.

We ate her too.

Maybe you can tell me why you won't eat your dog or cat? The pig is just as loyal and they have saved owners lives before therefore showing their deep effecton. what makes only the dog, cat and horse and some "pet" birds the lucky ones.