Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by beezzer

 

And what have you done, personally, to reduce the need for abortion?

So let me get this straight. The people having unprotected sex, the people getting the abortions have no, take no responsibility for their actions?

I somehow, have to take responsibility for those who shoulder none?

True, from the looks of it, it seems abortion is not the answer for the issue of retarded couples having unprotected sex...its more of an excuse for their mistake.

Intercourse leads to pregnancy, we need to worry about stopping pregnancy, not making excuse for the responsibility.

Abortion is an excuse, not an Answer.

reply to post by Annee


You gave me a failed father/husband as an example, which was leading to divorce... so of course, its now your sole responsibility, even tho he would have to pay child support if you did have it.

But my question is an average good husband, that wants a child, does he have a say in a positive pregnancy result?

Originally posted by ofhumandescent


Description of video:

Uploaded by Charlxttte on Oct 2, 2009 I want to start by saying that I strongly believed in pro-choice before the birth of my son. Not until I held him for the first time, was it even possible for me to understand what pro-choice really meant. My son deserved to live, from the very moment of conception, and the reason why I'm so passionate about the subject is, not only did several people close to me encourage abortion, but it was also a very real consideration for myself. I am so thankful I went with my heart, and I thank you for taking the time to watch.

This woman says "I strongly believed in pro-choice before the birth of my son."

This woman "CHOSE" to have her son. She is happy that she did. So now she wants to take that same choice that she had, and was happy to make, and take it away from others, forcing them to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. Lovely!

Then she goes on to claim "My son deserved to live, from the very moment of conception" Nobody "deserves" to born, and a unwanted, abused chlld doesn't deserve their lot either.

My first one was via the rubber breaking on April 1st...........kid you not.

The day I held my first born son in my arms, 35 years ago was the most wonderful day of my life.

We weren't ready.

We lived in a three room apartment.

Both made low wages.

Both had a lot of growing up to do.

But, as stated before, abortion never entered my mind, M was M when at two weeks pregnant I went to the doctor.

Good for you! Your experience is yours and gives you no right to dictate what another woman chooses to do in a similar situation.

Abortion clinics don't do it to help you out of a "problem" they do it FOR YOUR MONEY".

Oncologists don't help you by stopping your cancer! They do it for the money!

My sister in law and her husband, the lawyer who have quite a bit of money, a stable marriage, a beautiful home, very nice decent people (She just retired from being a kindergarten teacher) adopted two daughters. X could not have children.

If you left your baby on my doorstep - yes I would take him/her.

Good for them!

Final words.....................abortion is murder.

Murder of a defenseless, person that has no rights no voice.

You can't "murder" something that has no self awareness, self determinism or hopes. You can't murder potential.

It's evil as is sleeping around for casual pleasure. There I've said it.

Would you like to legislate that too? Really, nobody cares about your moral high ground.

Nobody wants to be "old fashion", "judgmental" or call a spade a spade - all kinds of twisty turny logic to make yourselves feel okay.

There are plenty of people. like yourself, who would love to plunge society back to the 1950's, or even further back to the dark ages. But, that Genii 'aint getten back in that bottle.

Why is our society getting so vile?

Pick up a history book, or even a Bible. People have always treated each other vilely.

One of the reasons is our moral decay, our irreverence for life for marriage for virtue and morality.

We have become again like in the days of Noah - we never learn, the old trickster is far smarter than most of you arrogant know it alls will admit.

Do you mean the days of Noah, when the Biblical God allowed rebel, fallen angels to run around raping earth girls and forcing them to give birth to monsters? Ah, the good old days!

When you decide to have that first baby - look down at him/her and think on the one you sacrificed.

Belief in God or being a Christian - not cool anymore.

Now cool is Lady Gaga, Katy Perry, Lindsey Lohan, Paris Hilton, Kristen Stewart, all who sleep around and do not know the meaning of loyalty, faithfulness and honesty.

There is right and there is wrong.

Y'all know what is right and what is wrong.

I don't know anybody who thinks any of those people are cool, but I'm sure there are some out there. To each his own. You don't dictate to others what is right and wrong, fortunately. As you say, they know. So, let them make their own choices, whether you think those choices are right or wrong, it's their choice.

If God isn't interfering, why should you?

reply to post by beezzer


Again, you think that everyone has had the same, privelaged upbringing that you have had. That they have the same education, and the same resources. Nothing is further from the truth.

You assume that people are mentally healthy, that they always understand what is going on. Nothing is further than the truth.

There are people who have been so devoid of love that they think the only value they have is through sleeping with someone. They are hurt that badly.

If all people behaved, and all were treated equally, you would have a case. But there are horrible people out there, that do horrible things. There is sexism, racisim, ageism. There is abuse, neglect, assault, and emotional trauma, that inhibits a person's ability to make rational decisions.

By keeping your head in the sand, thinking that society is perfect, only people making bad decisions, then the cluelessness has started with you.

If you are not willing to do things to help people get better, get opportunities, simply get a self esteem, and just think it is people acting irresponsible, you are part of the problem.

Because abortion is just a symptom of society. And you want to blame the individual. You want to make the fetus the victim, but never admit that the mother is a victim as well.

As long as you refuse to make the rest of society a culprit as well, there is a problem.

Start making sex education available, start making family planning accessible, start supporting programs that give inner city girls a shred of self esteem, and you will see change.


But if you want people to have compassion, you need to start showing it to more than just a fetus.Until then, your just a hypocrite.

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by Annee

 

You gave me a failed father/husband as an example, which was leading to divorce... so of course, its now your sole responsibility, even tho he would have to pay child support if you did have it.

But my question is an average good husband, that wants a child, does he have a say in a positive pregnancy result?

What is average?

Did you miss the part about Choosing Wisely?

I did answer your question. If the choice is good - - each will consider the other's feelings and needs. If his wife wants to go back to her career - - will he support her choice?

My husband was not a failed husband. He was on the honor roll in high school - - plus worked to support himself. Graduated from a trade school in printing. Won a scholarship to attend special training. Had lots of friends. Took very good care of me. Not everything shows up right away. Its still a mystery to me how he gradually became an isolationist - - wanting only me and him in our private little love nest - - without children or friends. I chose the welfare of my living children - - in both divorce and abortion.

reply to post by luciddream


The haughty answer of a privelaged college grad who thinks that everyone has had the same blessed opportunites they were given, and are just as smart.

When you have just proven how little you know on how the real world works.

Do you know how many teens think that you can pull out and not get pregnant? A lot of them.

Do you know how many teens think you can't get pregnant the first time? A lot of them.

You know how many teens think it is safe if you menstruating? A lot of them.

Or the boy who convinced the girl that he wore tight undies all his life, and can't get a girl pregnant. I had that one told to me.

Or how many girls have sex against their will?

How about peer pressure. I watched a girl get told by a group of teens that 15 is too old to be a virgin.

I knew two girls who were forced by their boyfriends, and didn't realize till later that it was rape, because they were made to feel it was their fault.

I am sure that my friend who was raped by her drunk father, knew that having sex would get you pregnant, how could she be so stupid?

I am sure those kids that I see running the streets at 11 at night, while dad is missing and mom is working, know what teh hell they are doing.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent

Why do you think the divorce rate is now close to 50% and most kids grow up with only one parent if that. We as a society have now embraced the darkness - evil in it's purest form. Welcome to satan's new world order.

Isn't it a little bit too dramatic?

reply to post by nixie_nox


You have offered a number of very real life valid points and I applaud you for your tenacity.

This is an issue often presented as strictly black or white, in reality though if one looks deeper than the surface of the debate ie; mother's right to determine what happens to her body vs unborn's right to life, one can begin to see wide swaths of gray throughout the canvas, a bigger more expansive picture of the many elements involved rather than the stark simplicity of the shallow black or white surface.

One element that plays a significant role in this issue is our society's continued acceptance of a double standard in relation to sex and procreation. Women are vilified for not only having unplanned pregnancies, but frankly for having sex under any circumstance other than the sole intent to procreate, note how many people respond in topics such as this with the standard "If she didn't want to get pregnant she should have kept her legs together". For men on the other hand, getting laid is considered a rite of passage, males are applauded by their peers for the number of sexual conquests they have had, how often do we hear society voicing disdainful outrage over the number of men hitting the clubs looking to find a one night stand? We don't, but we do hear the disdainful outrage regarding any women who might take them up on it. And how many can actually say that they have never heard the excuse of "she asked for it" (by the clothes she wore, the makeup she wore, her lack of response, her open friendliness or any number of other quirks or characteristics ) as a defense for rape? So long as we as a society continue to accept this double standard the problems associated with it will continue, which includes unplanned pregnancies.

No example of this double standard could be more perfect than comparing the ratio of sexual enhancement drugs such as Viagra promoted for men verses those promoted for women, on the other side of the coin compare the ratio of birth control pills marketed for women verses those promoted for men. Consider this in 1960 the first birth control pill for women was approved by the FDA, in the 52 years since the pill was first introduced for women no similar form of birth control has been designed for men, partially due according to some sources to lack of demand. WHY?

I personally stand as pro-choice, that is not to say I believe abortion should be considered an alternate form of birth control, nor does it say that I myself would ever consider having an abortion for myself unless the situation were extremely dire. It is to say I do recognize that there are times when the life of the mother must take precedence over the potential for life of the developing fetus. Not all unplanned pregnancies are the result of a willful act on the mothers part, some are forced upon them against their will.

Now for some interesting statistics I dug up while researching this issue
Often the suggested alternative to abortion for those not wanting the child is putting the child up for adoption, claims are made that there is an over-abundance of people seeking to adopt.

In 2008 there were 4247694 births and approximately 12100000 abortions.
The total adoptions for 2008 were 135,813 and the total number of children waiting to be adopted was 125,668 although the National adoption day toolkit for 2008 states 129000

The statistics raise doubts about the number of children that would be saved by banning abortion chances of being adopted.

While the pro-life advocates are generally considered Christian or religious based and the pro-choice advocates are viewed generally as lacking religious values...this might surprise people.

In 2008 the number of abortions broke down as such
447700 identify as protestant (those who only identified as Christian 8% are included here)
338800 identify as catholic
326700 claim no religious affiliation
242000 identified themselves as born-again, evangelical, charismatic or fundamentalist

Originally posted by Pixiefyre

One element that plays a significant role in this issue is our society's continued acceptance of a double standard in relation to sex and procreation. Women are vilified for not only having unplanned pregnancies, but frankly for having sex under any circumstance other than the sole intent to procreate, note how many people respond in topics such as this with the standard "If she didn't want to get pregnant she should have kept her legs together". For men on the other hand, getting laid is considered a rite of passage, males are applauded by their peers for the number of sexual conquests they have had, how often do we hear society voicing disdainful outrage over the number of men hitting the clubs looking to find a one night stand? We don't, but we do hear the disdainful outrage regarding any women who might take them up on it. And how many can actually say that they have never heard the excuse of "she asked for it" (by the clothes she wore, the makeup she wore, her lack of response, her open friendliness or any number of other quirks or characteristics ) as a defense for rape? So long as we as a society continue to accept this double standard the problems associated with it will continue, which includes unplanned pregnancies.

No example of this double standard could be more perfect than comparing the ratio of sexual enhancement drugs such as Viagra promoted for men verses those promoted for women, on the other side of the coin compare the ratio of birth control pills marketed for women verses those promoted for men. Consider this in 1960 the first birth control pill for women was approved by the FDA, in the 52 years since the pill was first introduced for women no similar form of birth control has been designed for men, partially due according to some sources to lack of demand. WHY?

I hear there is a birth control pill for men - but men weren't interested because they were scared of the risks. So... they let women take all the risks. Men don't usually like condoms because they say it takes away physical sensation, so.... they make women use the pill or diaphragm. Why is it always up to the woman to say no or take on all the risks or inconveniences?

I think men should be legally required to be the one responsible for using birth control. If a man gets a woman pregnant with an unwanted child - he should go to jail. It's time to take some of the heat off the woman and put it on the man.

I don't like condoms because there's a fifteen percent fail rate. That means many of them will break during sex, and that means they're really are of no protection.

So if they're going to fail anyway, you might as well take the risk.

If not, abstain.

And i abstain because having sex is just too risky these days.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
I don't like condoms because there's a fifteen percent fail rate.

Where did you get that percentage?

You can also wear 2.

They are the best protection against sexual diseases.

reply to post by Pixiefyre


Yep.

Those statistics are quite interesting.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone

I don't like condoms because there's a fifteen percent fail rate. That means many of them will break during sex, and that means they're really are of no protection.

Condoms are like 75-95% effective. They can fail, as well as any other birth control methods. Thus, the only solution is to stop having sex or have an abortion when your birth control method fails you and a pregnancy is unwanted!

edit on 30-8-2012 by LanaDan because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-8-2012 by LanaDan because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-8-2012 by LanaDan because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-8-2012 by LanaDan because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by LanaDan

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone

I don't like condoms because there's a fifteen percent fail rate. That means many of them will break during sex, and that means they're really are of no protection.

Condoms are like 75-95% effective. They can fail, as well as any other birth control methods. Thus, the only solution is to stop having sex or have an abortion when your birth control method fails you and a pregnancy is unwanted!

I knew that 15% was high.

Yes! I'm sure many have said Never . . . until . . .

The golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. - Jesus

Thou shall not kill. - God

Even if you can't acknowledge that it is a human, what do you call abortion? I know there are plenty of politically correct words for the act of aborting, but there is no way to get around the fact that someone who was alive is now dead. I will stick with the obvious. It is killing.

My signature sums it up. If you decide someone's life isn't worth living you made a HELL of a judgement call.

As for calling pro-lifers uncompassionate, get over yourself. We mourn for these babies. If someone was killing the moms we would mourn for them as well.

God is forgiving, but if you have no sorrow, you won't receive it.

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady

God is forgiving, but if you have no sorrow, you won't receive it.

Don't care about your God or what he thinks.

reply to post by Annee


I came across it a long time ago, long before I even knew of ATS.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by Annee

 

I came across it a long time ago, long before I even knew of ATS.

OK.

Just an odd coincidence I recently had reason to look up percentage of failed condoms.

I think it was only about 1% or something.

Of course - - if you are that 1%.

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
The golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. - Jesus

Thou shall not kill. - God

God is a hypocrite.

Even if you can't acknowledge that it is a human, what do you call abortion?

Nobody is saying that a fertilized human egg isn't human. But, it isn't a human being. I call abortion terminating a pregnancy.

I know there are plenty of politically correct words for the act of aborting, but there is no way to get around the fact that someone who was alive is now dead. I will stick with the obvious. It is killing.

A fertilized egg, zygote, fetus is NOT a "someone." A "someone" is a self aware, self determined individual who has hopes and fears. Do you honestly believe that woman who take the pill, use and IUD or take the morning after pill are murderers. Or, do they become murders after 3 weeks, 6 weeks.....?

My signature sums it up. If you decide someone's life isn't worth living you made a HELL of a judgement call.

If you are one of those people who thinks that God assigns a soul for every fertilized egg, then your God is nature. The God that is the one of the Natural Laws pays no attention to humans, but if humans don't pay attention to the Natural Laws, then that God of the forces of Nature quickly controls their existence.

As for calling pro-lifers uncompassionate, get over yourself. We mourn for these babies. If someone was killing the moms we would mourn for them as well.

But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

God is forgiving, but if you have no sorrow, you won't receive it.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

reply to post by windword

God is a hypocrite.

Your mocking God gives me no desire to talk with you.