Atheism is a paradox and it results in chaos and madness.

Originally posted by dominicus

Continually, any meaning, morals, ethics, love, happiness, and so on is just a bunch of brain synapses and chemical exchanges that are relative and in the grand scheme of things really don't mean anything at all and therefore there really is no higher purpose than to live like an animal and be no different than what we see in nature, which by the way shows no mercy.

If that's the case, rob banks, preggo to all hot chicks, anyone in your way killed, conquer and be alpha of a big territory, and fight/kill of anyone who tries to take your position, as in nature.

You make the classical mistake to assume (WHY???) that people who do not believe in a creator do not have a meaning in their lives, not only that, they are also supposedly not having a morale.

You even admit this further below where you say "No God = No purpose, no meaning, everything random".

Sadly, you are ENTIRELY wrong and could not be more wrong.

In fact, i am going so far to attribute a certain weakness to those people who rely on a creator to find meaning and purpose in life.

Because: ANY HALFWAY SMART person just needs to open their eyes and look around - there is meaning in everything around you. Was a "creator" responsible for this? HECK i don't know..and common sense won't allow me to believe in a "being" which created the universe.

But the beauty of this is, i don't need such. As a grown human being, i can draw my own conclusions. I can see a living being, another human, an animal, a plant even...and the simple existence of it is already "meaning" enough. Wonders everywhere, without having to resort to fairy tales! As a human being, i have the ability to develop a morale and ON MY OWN develop a sense of morale and a sense what is good, what is bad.

Do you think, without the idea of a god (whether he/she exists or not) you are not able to love? Why would that be? Maybe then you'd have a serious problem! Do you and other religious people THINK that they're the only people capable of feelings, morale, love, seeing what is good and bad JUST BECAUSE they go to church every Sunday? You think you are the better humans because you perform rituals?

I was actually RAISED catholic, due to where I was born and my childhood, we even "had to" attend R.E. class in school etc..etc..so we were taught the principles of Christianity. NOW - i am older and wiser, i do not need to attend a Friday afternoon church "for the kids" anymore or go to church on Sunday if we couldn't make in on Friday. Why? Because those "teachings" of the church are TOO OBVIOUS - why would i need a priest telling me this or that which should be OBVIOUS for any mature human being?

If you say humans need a creator to find meaning and purpose, you are basically setting humans equal with the most primitive animals/species.

So..while i disagree with most you said in your OP - i do actually agree with what you said later, that the elimination of religion would NOT solve all problems. You are entirely correct saying that humans will find something else to fight and kill over

Originally posted by dominicus
Atheism is:
1. a paradox and
2. it results in chaos and madness.

Paradox because in its premise it says that it does not believe in God, because their is justification reliant on the current knowledge base of science (which does not look for God), all the while others say there is a God. So it's a choice to not believe in something, yet the rest of life requires belief and faith for everything else.

Chaotic Madness because in the event that there were no God and all of this is just free floating randomness that somehow over gazillions of years evolved into what we have now, then by all means we should be living by principles of survival of the fittest, kill or be killed, etc. If we come from Monkeys and their is no soul made by God, then we too should be flinging crap at each other, having kids with as many women as possible to guarantee our lineages, and destroy all barriers no matter the cost.

I do not believe in god, not because I believe in something like science that denies god but because no one has ever presented to me a sufficient reason for believing in their god. I believe in many things of a spiritual nature but only because I have either personal experience or the reasons presented to me have explanatory power. Most of the arguments that have been presented to me as to why i should believe are based either on threats of eternal torture or dogmatic assurances of infallibility.

As for the rest of it, the argument is nonsense. First it presupposes that there are only two alternatives, the theistic creation or the materialist model, and argues rather laughably that since if the materialist model were true then we would see XYZ, which is nothing more than speculation, but then since we don't see that XYZ then the theist creation MUST be true.

I find it interesting that those who are adherents of the deist paradigm -- whether Christian, Muslim or whatever, it all is pretty much the same -- divide the world into three categories: people who are spiritual because they believe in the same things they do, and atheists. Yet one can reject the notion of a god and not reject the notion of a whole spiritual existence.

reply to post by totallackey

Why does it, of necessity, have to be a deity? What makes it worthy of worship if it exists?

reply to post by jiggerj

So, you believe in near death experiences? Can you record an event that has already taken place before you turn on your camera? If a brain is completely dead, completely nonfunctional, it simply cannot record a memory before the brain is revived.

that old theory. Don't know if you've been out of the loop for long, but there are plenty studies being done and theories based on nonlocalized conscious that say and theorize that consciousness itself may not be dependent on the brain, but that it may that the brain is dependent on consciousness. This used to be an argument used plenty by materialists, but with all the recent advances and studies in consciousness, no longer holds the same weight as it once did.
reply to post by Klassified

Unlike animals, we are able to think and reason on a level they can't.

If Atheism is correct, then all we are is Monkeys 2.0. We are also animals that are merely smarter. So then as male we impregnate the hotter women, elude allimony more efficiently, kill or be killed more rapidly. Just smarter monkeys.

We don't live by the law of the jungle because we learned early on that if we wanted to survive as individuals, and as a species, and work together as a group, we needed to be in agreement with each other. Therefore, we needed rules and ordinances that the group followed.

Even so, with all of that in place we still see people acting like wild animals.

This thread demonstrates an acceptance of the false dichotomy presented by the standard 'atheist vs. theist' debate...that whole thing is so overly simplistic...

reply to post by Klassified


Excuse my lack of pointed definition.

Definition of atheism noun [mass noun] disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Utilizing this definition of atheist in my argument.

Further (after re-reading your post), am I to understand your definition of the terms "god," and "deity," to be in-congruent?

Originally posted by dominicus

Continually, any meaning, morals, ethics, love, happiness, and so on is just a bunch of brain synapses and chemical exchanges that are relative and in the grand scheme of things really don't mean anything at all and therefore there really is no higher purpose than to live like an animal and be no different than what we see in nature, which by the way shows no mercy.

If that's the case, rob banks, preggo to all hot chicks, anyone in your way killed, conquer and be alpha of a big territory, and fight/kill of anyone who tries to take your position, as in nature.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is why Atheism never worked for me....

This is why most people are unfit for atheism. They think that without God, people will run amok, themselves included. They rely on a foundation of morals because they are unconfident in their own abilities to conquer their animalistic emotions. That is perfectly natural, as most people in the world already rely on the beliefs of someone else to fill in for their own. If belief is what stops people like yourself from robbing banks and raping women, then I'm all for it.

reply to post by dominicus

So your relying on "hope" for all of these unknown unseen future factors that you can't prove to be real or actual until they realistically and actually happen .....but others' having hope that God, who also can be said is an unknown and unseen future factor is null and void?

Huh?

When did I say it was Null and Void? I certainly have "hope" that there is an afterlife, and a Divine Source; but we can't know that until the day we die. Until then, we (as ordinary people; I have already had those real-life experiences, but some have not) have, based on watching how the world works day to day, a reasonable expectation that the "typical" youthful first-world sequence of events will happen (provided we are in the right place at the right time with the right skills and so on and so forth, and that humanity doesn't blow itself to smithereens before that happens)....

There's a big difference. No one has come back to my life after dying and said "yep, it's real!", although I want (and hope) very much that that is the case.....
however, most people I know have had a 1st job interview, and lots of people are parents....

not sure I get your point. I have never claimed there is no God or afterlife. I just don't know. I hope so, though.

reply to post by dominicus

Originally posted by dominicus

Paradox because in its premise it says that it does not believe in God, because their is justification reliant on the current knowledge base of science (which does not look for God), all the while others say there is a God. So it's a choice to not believe in something, yet the rest of life requires belief and faith for everything else.

Belief has a scale of certainty. I can believe my mom will love me tomorrow but that's not a factual guarantee. It's highly probable. I can believe god is a purple dinosaur. It's not factually proven false but it's highly improbable. Both of those beliefs are justified through the evidence at hand through a plethora of sources (or the lack thereof).

It scales all the way from faith (a belief with an entire lack of evidence) all the way to the theory of gravity which is pragmatically factual yet hypothetical an incorrect understanding due to the lack of understanding of the Universe. So you're right we all use belief, and there is almost always the chance it's not fully grounded in objective fact in an ultimate sense.

This isn't really about any of that. The issue is how huge the religious claims (namely dogmatic religions) are and how little evidence there is to justify a belief at all. Saying you can't prove it wrong is entirely separate from justifying the belief to begin with.

Chaotic Madness....

Continually, any meaning, morals, ethics, love, happiness, and so on is just a bunch of brain synapses and chemical exchanges that are relative and in the grand scheme of things really don't mean anything at all and therefore there really is no higher purpose than to live like an animal and be no different than what we see in nature, which by the way shows no mercy.

If that's the case, rob banks, preggo to all hot chicks, anyone in your way killed, conquer and be alpha of a big territory, and fight/kill of anyone who tries to take your position, as in nature.

Of all things I hear from Christians, and the other dogmatic religious, this is absolutely the most offensive, immoral and heartless.

You essentially just said atheists lives are pointless. Yes. You did just say that. Understand the implication of your words.

You essentially just said if you lack the belief in God you are immoral, incapable of love, any sense of ethics and are likely to commit murder and rape. Yes you did just say that. Understand the implication of your horrible thoughts.

You claim to of read philosophy. That's interesting to me as morality and ethics is a focal point of much of it!!

The belief in ANY GOD is NOT a requirement to be a good person, to be moral, to have an ethical code. That's the most absurd notion and it clearly demonstrates a lack of objectivity and perhaps even the chance you have live your entire life inside a church.

If I dedicated the rest of my entire life every day to finding good moral people who lacked a belief in god, today or in history, I would not be able to name them all.

I can attest to myself. And I have so before. I can attest to my parents. And I have done so before. But would stories about how moral and good these people are go through one ear and out the other?? It seems so.

Describing the compassionate life of my atheist mother and everything she has done for countless medically fragile children would it seems be futile. Or perhaps you would convince yourself the acts were secretly coming from the Bible somehow.

There are countless sources for morality and ethics. From systems of thought, fields of study, to individuals like your friends and family. You can learn fantastic moral teachings from many philosophers, psychologists, intellectuals, spiritual sages, John Stewart. Whatever. Everything is a potential source. Morality evolves as humankind evolves. It's that simple. We shape it and mold it together through our growing understanding of what goodness and love and compassion is...

science (which in my eyes isn't discovering anything new, but is merely uncovering details of the whole which have always been)

It's discovery nonetheless.

Originally posted by dominicus
Atheism is:
1. a paradox and
2. it results in chaos and madness.

Paradox because in its premise it says that it does not believe in God, because their is justification reliant on the current knowledge base of science (which does not look for God), all the while others say there is a God. So it's a choice to not believe in something, yet the rest of life requires belief and faith for everything else.

I Understand the "no belief" part. However, the same atheist will live their lives entirely reliant upon belief and ,dare I say, faith that they will wake up tomorrow, when in all actuality, tomorrow isn't promised, is unknown, and there is no proof that tomorrow will be ...until we actually get there. We don't know that tomorrow is real until we actually will experience it, which then there will be no doubt.

So it is in the rest of life. Reliant on a set of intellectual principles (thoughts/memories) which can be factored down to a set of relative beliefs, i.e (my favorite team, favorite kind of weather, how best to protect myself, quickest route from a to b, etc etc)

and

Chaotic Madness because in the event that there were no God and all of this is just free floating randomness that somehow over gazillions of years evolved into what we have now, then by all means we should be living by principles of survival of the fittest, kill or be killed, etc. If we come from Monkeys and their is no soul made by God, then we too should be flinging crap at each other, having kids with as many women as possible to guarantee our lineages, and destroy all barriers no matter the cost.

Continually, any meaning, morals, ethics, love, happiness, and so on is just a bunch of brain synapses and chemical exchanges that are relative and in the grand scheme of things really don't mean anything at all and therefore there really is no higher purpose than to live like an animal and be no different than what we see in nature, which by the way shows no mercy.

If that's the case, rob banks, preggo to all hot chicks, anyone in your way killed, conquer and be alpha of a big territory, and fight/kill of anyone who tries to take your position, as in nature.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is why Atheism never worked for me and so I continued to dig further and deeper into areas like philosophy, religions, mysticism, NDE's, and all other possible clue giving ares of studies besides just science (which in my eyes isn't discovering anything new, but is merely uncovering details of the whole which have always been)

Open for discussion

Now you're gonna be hammered for hitting a nail dead on. No one wants to hear the truth. So I'm glad to see someone has some sanity and doesn't have the blinders on anymore.

So if you're looking around and trying to figure it out, then here's a word of advice. Don't go so much by logic, reason and science. Thats' not how you tune into God. You got tap into your spirit and into your gutt. Like when you experience God, talk to him, or have any encounter with him you'll feel it very strong in the gutt. It's a strong emotional experience. I'd encourage you to just start praying regularly, and asking God to show you who he is. I'd recommend picking up a bible as if you want to feel that gutt instinct you'll feel it when you read. You'll also feel it when you pray. And or when God starts to reveal his existence to you. It happens very quickly. The moment you pray and invite God in with a sincere heart, leaving all your pride ego and vanity behind. And just sort of thinking in terms of "it's not about me anymore" it's about just forgetting myself and being open to the spirit coming into my life. When you come at it with that understanding you'll very quickly get in tune with the spirit. But again I'd highly recommend prayer and reading the bible. The moment you do those two things alone you'll feel God. And if you go to a strong bible believing church and you're new to it all, then it's amplified. You definitely will feel him. Because his spirit actually shows up there. Anyway, good luck.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So, you believe in near death experiences? Can you record an event that has already taken place before you turn on your camera? If a brain is completely dead, completely nonfunctional, it simply cannot record a memory before the brain is revived.

that old theory. Don't know if you've been out of the loop for long, but there are plenty studies being done and theories based on nonlocalized conscious that say and theorize that consciousness itself may not be dependent on the brain, but that it may that the brain is dependent on consciousness. This used to be an argument used plenty by materialists, but with all the recent advances and studies in consciousness, no longer holds the same weight as it once did.

So, consciousness is a thing totally separate from the human mind and is somehow beamed into our brains. And yet, this consciousness (which must be of infinite knowledge) restricts five year olds from thinking and dreaming on the level of 20 year olds. And those with no education remain stupid while this 'consciousness' pours knowledge into those that gather more and more education.

It makes no sense.

reply to post by jiggerj

No, I'm not making assumptions, and I'm not saying you're BSing me. What I'm saying is, did god walk up to you, shake your hand and say, 'Hi, I'm god"?

Originally posted by totallackey
reply to post by Klassified

 

Excuse my lack of pointed definition.

Definition of atheism noun [mass noun] disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Utilizing this definition of atheist in my argument.

Further (after re-reading your post), am I to understand your definition of the terms "god," and "deity," to be in-congruent?

edit on 18-8-2012 by totallackey because: further content

I use them interchangeably. They both denote divinity and authority. Hence the question, if this entity exists. Why is it automatically a god, or a deity?

reply to post by Klassified

I use them interchangeably. They both denote divinity and authority. Hence the question, if this entity exists. Why is it automatically a god, or a deity?

The point is the atheist has a state of disbelief in what you are now simply referring to as an entity.

Restatement of the original terms:

Deity = God or god = entity

Atheism = a disbelief in god.

Since the subject is atheism and the definition of atheism is a disbelief in god/gods, and you use the subject terms interchangeably, you have answered your own question. Why are you asking me?

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

This is why most people are unfit for atheism. They think that without God, people will run amok, themselves included.

what is there to be unfit for? It's just the lack of belief of God. Just a very simple decision. We can even say we're all born agnostic, so not much more to take a simple step further. Furthermore, people run amok regardless, neither Atheism, nor religion, nor lack of both will change that.

They rely on a foundation of morals because they are unconfident in their own abilities to conquer their animalistic emotions.

I have yet to conquer my own animalism, so I study those who say they have conquered theirs. If you can honestly tell me you've conquered yours, then if you publish something about it, I'll be first in line to buy ur book. Better yet find me any Atheist who has made the claim to completely conquering the animal nature.

That is perfectly natural, as most people in the world already rely on the beliefs of someone else to fill in for their own.

Isn't this what you do too? In my case, all belief and thought had to be witheld completely in order to enter into an experience of the Absolute, since that ABsolute Beingness is not only prior to thought, as a direct experience, it also transcends all thought. I was not loking for belief but for a direct experience ....and found it.

If belief is what stops people like yourself from robbing banks and raping women, then I'm all for it.

wrong premise. you also stop yourself from immoral behavior because you believe if you do so, you can get in big trouble, killed, etc etc. No difference.

When I was an atheist, all morals/ethics were relative and made up, so there was much consideration of how easy it is to justify immoral acts in that state. Whereas, remembering that I pre-existed prior to body and mind, as a unit of consciousness made me consider that me as consciousness, had to have been created and come to be by some other means, some other source....... eventually a direct experience of the Absolute made me realize that we are all intimately connected at the hip so to speak ....so loving others, giving back, helping, kindness, forgiveness, and many other factors now make complete sense ...where as an atheist, if I didn't know you, I could of given 2 shi*s about you

Originally posted by dominicus
When I was an atheist, all morals/ethics were relative and made up, so there was much consideration of how easy it is to justify immoral acts in that state.

Which just confirms what he said. Finding and learning ethics and morale (as a process of human development) is not something everyone can do. The realization that it would be indeed "easy" eg. to commit an immoral act is INTEGRAL PART of this learning process.

I can kill innocent animals, humans even. I MIGHT get away with it, no one might ever know. THIS is exactly the "art" of growing as a human, that you realize there is something BEYOND "logic and reason", a feeling something is bad or something is good.

If you in fact justify "immoral acts" and consider ethics as "made-up" and non relevant - then PLEASE stay with your church. You are indeed unfit to be an atheist.

I always say, I will take an atheist over a theist because theism is a cultural belief that people are born into while atheism tends to require thought to come to. In other words, an atheist must think critically about theism in order to conclude atheism is better, while a theist only has to take everyone else's "word" for it.

On that note I would take someone who was both a former theist and atheist, than either one.

Just my .02

reply to post by jiggerj

And yet, this consciousness (which must be of infinite knowledge) restricts five year olds from thinking and dreaming on the level of 20 year olds.

Now, now, jig. That phenomenon is due to the brain being slow to grow...
humans are one of the few species that are born very helpless and take decades to mature.

Still, I know plenty of 20 year olds who haven't a CLUE about good choices (I know I had few when I was that age....yet felt invincible). And "ya can't fix stupid." Ignorance can, however, be fixed, given there is some intelligence and willingness to learn.

Also, there are plenty of little kids who show innate wisdom and insight -- until the adult world tells them to "stop acting like you know anything."

reply to post by totallackey

you are joking, right? Ok then. You win, nevermind.

reply to post by Klassified


No, I am not joking. And I am not trying to win anything, are you? Were we engaged in some sort of competition? I spelled out my understanding of the circumstance. If you wish to disengage from further discussion that is certainly your prerogative.