Atheism is a paradox and it results in chaos and madness.

reply to post by dominicus

God = Purpose, ideal, meaning. There is a purpose that's higher, an achievable ideal, and a meaning for everything and it's up to us to find it and figure it out.

Yes, many times I wonder what purpose we serve, if this is all there is?
And when we are gone, who will be the observers?

Love your enemies, bless them

reply to post by smyleegrl

Then, it stand to reason that each person's concept of reality will be different and based upon personal experiences.

The conscious experience is absolutely spiritual.

Love one-another.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Fromabove

 

Atheism is self deceptive delusion. I say this because there is no way that all things exist just because they do, and there is no way that order and symmetry is everywhere just because it is. The universe has a planer and we are in that planner's design. This is why atheism is always the futile attempt to resist the truth perceptible to the senses every day. Of course the atheist has the counter argument that satisfies them. They always do. It just isn't valid that's all.

I hear you.

1 of my reasonings which made me shift away from Atheism was the following.

A. No God = No Purpose, No meaning, everything Random. Anything else said about life is random and relative ideas that have as their sole foundation ..... everything Random, no meaning, no purpose. Just animals and that's it

B. God = Purpose, ideal, meaning. There is a purpose that's higher, an achievable ideal, and a meaning for everything and it's up to us to find it and figure it out.

Good for you OP, that you have found peace of mind for which way you swing with this debate. However I really don't think we need yet nother thread debating who is more right than wrong.

Atheism is valid, a belief in God is valid, who is right ? who knows, whats the agenda ?

Just beacuse your mind was swayed, doesn't mean everybody else's is up for the taking.

The argument you present is like chalk and cheese, I don't have faith that I will wake up in the morning, I don't even think about it, I take it to be a dead cert.

Why would I question otherwise, its not like if I die in the night, I'm going to think afterwards "Ah,pants, I should have considered this could have been the outcome, and questioned faith !"

By the way what's wrong with random ?

Out of the chaos comes order

reply to post by jiggerj

The 'plenty of folks' that you speak of only assign a god to what they see and experience. They make a leap of faith based on zero evidence.

So those who claim to have observed and experienced an Infinite Beingness that underscores all of reality and is it's source ....would be based on faith and zero evidence, faith being based on belief, while evidence being based on an observation and experience?

There is no connection whatsoever between a god and a lifesaving event. And, thank god for that! If I find out that a god has saved lives before, but didn't save my sister's life, I am going to be royally P'Oed

how do you know there's no connection? You can only assume there is no connection.

On the other hand there are plenty of NDE's which still put a wrench in the gears of your train of thought.

As far as saving your sister's life ...perhaps for some its there time and others still have work to do here so they get more time here.

Originally posted by dominicus

1 of my reasonings which made me shift away from Atheism was the following.

A. No God = No Purpose, No meaning, everything Random. Anything else said about life is random and relative ideas that have as their sole foundation ..... everything Random, no meaning, no purpose. Just animals and that's it

B. God = Purpose, ideal, meaning. There is a purpose that's higher, an achievable ideal, and a meaning for everything and it's up to us to find it and figure it out.

So, you accept a god, not because you believe he exists, but because you don't want to live without purpose. You do realize that this is not evidence that a god exists, right?

This life would be dreadfully boring without stories and movies of elves and fairies and unicorns and minotaurs, but that doesn't make me believe that they exist.

Originally posted by rigel4
Atheism is a state of mind that would suggest a more sane mind than it's religious counterpart!

The reasons are fairly obvious... No Supernatural beliefs involved , just hard facts, usually scientific in nature.

The religious type on the other hand is driven to worship a sky deity, and as we all know millions have died
as a result of this crazy way of thinking.

It's no longer rational to say this, as if other alternatives are irrational. Leonard Susskind and many other scientists of our era are clearly leaning toward the obvious conclusions that move away from our previous fixed mindset against a Creator. As we look closer and closer into the microcosm, we are seeing what we missed before. All energy and light is information in movement. Not just information, but information with mathematical precision and purpose, digitally encoded and streamlined to the pinnacle of efficiency.

Let me give you one simple example. It just so happens that air is smaller than the wavelength of light. Why should this be? Well, it shouldn't. It's not the most rational decision nature could have made. Since light is larger than air, light passes through air. If not, we would see a wash of light in every direction, similar to fog. This is one of millions of examples that just so happen to be so for life to exist in a state of complementary purpose. Knowing that energy is information, we can then make the connection between the superposition of light as wave or particle. We can then engage the dimensions into a coherent assembly with the presence of the observer collapsing the wave. There is a chain of changes to our previous axioms that compete DENY the notion that it might be even slightly rational to exclude a higher conscious state than our own behind the veil of matter.

I could write another 60 pages on this, but this one fact and video deny any notion other than one that INCLUDES a Creator as one of the easiest and clearly implied evidences for our origin. No rational mind would say otherwise. In addition, no WOO or metaphysics is needed. The conclusion of a Designer is a foregone conclusion from the current science we can see after only 200 years of real measurement.

Let me go one step further. Since I have not mentioned the Bible yet, let me mention three verses. Genesis 1:1-3 covers Time, Space, Matter and Energy. Genesis 1:27 says we are INSIDE an image created by light and energy in the form of WORD. Word is information. We get this from John 1 that says this very thing. Hebrews 11 states that the universe was created from what is hidden.

I just described a hologram. Not only this, but I just described the very process that this computer uses to do the same connection between me and the image of WORD on your screen. Not only this, but I just described you seeing me in Time, other than when I typed this, in an image representing me in the form of collapsed wave function. Come back tomorrow and collapse this moment again if you like. God says that we are in his image and INSIDE his created image. He can see us, yet we cannot see past the veil of matter. We are known, yet he knows us fully as he himself is known. For the very best verse of all:

1 Corinthians 13

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Not only does her perfectly describe how he did it, he gives us the reason.

Are you sure you are being rational?

Originally posted by Fromabove

Atheism is self deceptive delusion. I say this because there is no way that all things exist just because they do, and there is no way that order and symmetry is everywhere just because it is. The universe has a planer and we are in that planner's design. This is why atheism is always the futile attempt to resist the truth perceptible to the senses every day.

You have a bad definition of atheist...

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Atheism does not preclude someone from believing in creation. I leave open the option for the possibility of creation. I don't however, believe in gods and deities. Just because someone or something could have had a hand in our creation, does not make that someone or something a god.

Of course the atheist has the counter argument that satisfies them. They always do. It just isn't valid that's all.

Of course the theist has the counter argument that satisfies them, they always do. It just isn't valid, that's all.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The 'plenty of folks' that you speak of only assign a god to what they see and experience. They make a leap of faith based on zero evidence.

So those who claim to have observed and experienced an Infinite Beingness that underscores all of reality and is it's source ....would be based on faith and zero evidence, faith being based on belief, while evidence being based on an observation and experience?

Umm, yeah, that's what I said. They don't OBSERVE a god. They don't EXPERIENCE an infinite beingness. They make a connection that isn't there. It's like saying that there are horses, and there are animals with horns, and there are animals with wings, so this is proof that unicorns exist.

reply to post by jiggerj

So, you accept a god, not because you believe he exists, but because you don't want to live without purpose. You do realize that this is not evidence that a god exists, right?

No. At first I went from Atheist to Agnostic because 1. NDE's 2. People who claim to have experienced God 3. Because Atheism equaled to me pure chaos and no purpose.

After that, I studied all religions and philosophies and found blueprints on how to experience said God. I followed the blueprints which lead to my own experience and observation of an Absolute Beingness that seems to saturate all of reality. My acceptance of God is therefore not based on belief or purpose. And last I believ that an individuals experience and observation of said Beingness, constitutes an experience and observation in line with empirical evidence.

This life would be dreadfully boring without stories and movies of elves and fairies and unicorns and minotaurs, but that doesn't make me believe that they exist.

certain things ingested will result in visions of said beings you speak of above. In such case, there is at least a scientific explanation for the mythologies and gives them at least some substantiality

Originally posted by dominicus
On the other hand there are plenty of NDE's which still put a wrench in the gears of your train of thought.

So, you believe in near death experiences? Can you record an event that has already taken place before you turn on your camera?

If a brain is completely dead, completely nonfunctional, it simply cannot record a memory before the brain is revived.

reply to post by dominicus

Chaotic Madness because in the event that there were no God and all of this is just free floating randomness that somehow over gazillions of years evolved into what we have now, then by all means we should be living by principles of survival of the fittest, kill or be killed, etc. If we come from Monkeys and their is no soul made by God, then we too should be flinging crap at each other, having kids with as many women as possible to guarantee our lineages, and destroy all barriers no matter the cost.

Continually, any meaning, morals, ethics, love, happiness, and so on is just a bunch of brain synapses and chemical exchanges that are relative and in the grand scheme of things really don't mean anything at all and therefore there really is no higher purpose than to live like an animal and be no different than what we see in nature, which by the way shows no mercy.

If that's the case, rob banks, preggo to all hot chicks, anyone in your way killed, conquer and be alpha of a big territory, and fight/kill of anyone who tries to take your position, as in nature.

This is a very narrow minded look at humankind as a whole. We don't live by the law of the jungle because we learned early on that if we wanted to survive as individuals, and as a species, and work together as a group, we needed to be in agreement with each other. Therefore, we needed rules and ordinances that the group followed. Unlike animals, we are able to think and reason on a level they can't.

It is when someone decided they needed to rule and bamboozle the group, that religion came in, and the rest is painfully obvious history

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by rigel4

 

The religious type on the other hand is driven to worship a sky deity, and as we all know millions have died as a result of this crazy way of thinking.

85-100 million alone dead because of communism.

Communism is not atheism.
Atheism is solely the belief that there is no creator. That's all there is to atheism. No hidden agenda, no power struggle (except to be free of religious constraints).
Communism, on the other hand, is a way to control the masses, just like every religion.

He wasn't saying Communism was Atheism, just fyi.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Fromabove

 

Atheism is self deceptive delusion. I say this because there is no way that all things exist just because they do, and there is no way that order and symmetry is everywhere just because it is. The universe has a planer and we are in that planner's design. This is why atheism is always the futile attempt to resist the truth perceptible to the senses every day. Of course the atheist has the counter argument that satisfies them. They always do. It just isn't valid that's all.

I hear you.

1 of my reasonings which made me shift away from Atheism was the following.

A. No God = No Purpose, No meaning, everything Random. Anything else said about life is random and relative ideas that have as their sole foundation ..... everything Random, no meaning, no purpose. Just animals and that's it

B. God = Purpose, ideal, meaning. There is a purpose that's higher, an achievable ideal, and a meaning for everything and it's up to us to find it and figure it out.

Yeah, it was that way with me. I thought I was an atheist but it was the order and symmetry that finally got me and the fact that all things exist. This reality was a wake up to me.

I think the definitions of atheism and religions require clarification before any opinions are made on this thread.

atheism

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities

religion

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature. There are thousands of religions in the world.

God / Deities

God usually refers to the single deity in monotheism or the monist deity in polytheism.[1] God is often conceived of as the supernatural creator and overseer of humans and the universe. Theologians have ascribed a variety of attributes to the many different conceptions of God. The most common among these include omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence.

Religion is almost always a human interpretation of 'God' and most often is more a moral code and set of rules as made by humans.

So if religion is reworded as belief in God / Deities then it takes out the whole believing in the human constructs of religion, which is most often the contentious part.

If God / Deities is simplified to meaning 'Omnipotent Force' as many religions use their deities to give 'personality' to this 'Omnipotent Force' this also simplifies things.

Whilst it is perfectly reasonable for people questioning organised religions as they are human constructs often evolved from the flaws of humanity such as greed, egotism etc. It is less reasonable to question an 'Omnipotent Force' that brought about the universe and all that there is, physically and non physically.

The laws of physics and math explain that there are forces that aren't physical, that there are realms that are electrical, magnetic and that conform to universal patterns of geometry. Particle physics shows that there are realms yet to be properly comprehended by humanity, such as dark energy, dark matter and the expanding universe.

There is a grand design, a pattern to life and creation that goes beyond basic human 'only if you can see it' mentality, that very much suggests the universe is an intelligent design.

IMO it is only an uneducated opinion that would deny such an intelligent design.

As I believe this intelligent design is true, I also believe in an 'Omnipotent Force' or 'Omnipotent Creator Force'.

Note the wariness with which I use the word 'Creator' as to some this inevitably means a cue to shout about religion/s, which I have said before are human constructs to explain the concept of this 'Omnipotent Creator Force'.

reply to post by Parksie

Why can't the animals see god and angels and demons?

Who said they can't?

To me, that there is an 'ultimate' in the universe that is unknowable and beyond human comprehension in it's fullness is an unequivocal eternal, and very logical supposition. It is something I'm not always conscious of but nevertheless can sense. I am also not stupid enough to believe that humans are without a creator and that all of human civilization has no greater purpose... Life is unfortunate and absurd as it is, even if you believe in God. That people refuse to acknowledge that God exists and is very very real just proves to me that they are intellectually inept, if not spiritually bankrupt.

If someone calls themselves an atheist chances are I won't have a beer with you or want to associate myself with you as you are considerably hindering yourself in life by refusing to accept the one thing that is most obvious in existence.

My energy doesn't mix well with theirs because they are simply Contrarians of the most egregious sort.


Still though, calling yourself an atheist doesn't do anything to change the fact that the laws of the universe apply to you just the same as any other person... in the end it is just a mental fart for them.

reply to post by jiggerj

Umm, yeah, that's what I said. They don't OBSERVE a god. They don't EXPERIENCE an infinite beingness. They make a connection that isn't there.

This is your assumption. Me saying that I have experienced an Infinite beingness ...... why would I bs you or lie about. I have no other perogative than to see for myself if its true, I did, and to tell others. I am not saying join this or joint that "religion".....just saying something substantial is undoubtedly there if you know how and where to look.

It's like saying that there are horses, and there are animals with horns, and there are animals with wings, so this is proof that unicorns exist.

lost me there

So is philosophy religion science and finance

Atheism is proven contradictory. It is a disbelief in deity.

The only real objective proof that can be stated about any self is that self has not experienced everything there is to experience. Since this is an undisputed fact, it must be acknowledged the deity or proof of the deity could exist outside the realm of current experience of the self.

Since this is an objectively true statement, then the disbelief is as baseless as the atheists claim the belief of the theists.

Atheism is bankrupt and impossible.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Umm, yeah, that's what I said. They don't OBSERVE a god. They don't EXPERIENCE an infinite beingness. They make a connection that isn't there.

This is your assumption. Me saying that I have experienced an Infinite beingness ...... why would I bs you or lie about. I have no other perogative than to see for myself if its true, I did, and to tell others. I am not saying join this or joint that "religion".....just saying something substantial is undoubtedly there if you know how and where to look.

No, I'm not making assumptions, and I'm not saying you're BSing me.

What I'm saying is, did god walk up to you, shake your hand and say, 'Hi, I'm god"?