Iran, The real issue, An open discussion

true ...but from what ive seen ..Iran tell it how it is

"telling like it is" eh How bout this?



This video was taken well after this www.abovetopsecret.com...



More:

Iran isn't an easy issue to deal with really. And Israel doesn't make it any easier, without question they are just as guilty of International terrorism as any of the Islamic countries are. The problem I have with our relations with Iran is we are the reason they are so bad. The U.S. would not accept or tolerate any trade embargoes yet we expect other nations to do so. Who is to say what their regime would like without the rest of the world isolating it. The only thing we are really doing is helping them oppress their people and magnifying their disdain for the West.

And the thought of them having nuclear weapons doesn't really frighten me. We know Israel has them, and if you listen to how diplomatic they are, they are no better. Mind you it is a violation of a treaty they signed in good faith. Yet everyone seems to give them a pass for their lies. Both India and Pakistan have them, yet have managed to keep from obliterating one another. Why should we think that Iran would use it if they had it? There is no logical reason to use it.

Originally posted by KeliOnyx
Both India and Pakistan have them, yet have managed to keep from obliterating one another. Why should we think that Iran would use it if they had it? There is no logical reason to use it.

Either its a misconception, sensationalism, mixture of both or its a fact. Which one is it? You have to admit, that its a scary thought, if it is true.

In his noted booklet “Apocalyptic Politics: On the Rationality of Iranian Policy,” Iranian-American writer Mehdi Khalaji speaks of a fanatic cult working to create a link between socialism, Nazism and fundamentalist Islam. He talks about the hidden imam, the Mahdi, whom Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad swears to have met. A look into the apocalyptic ideology that has taken root in Iran's leadership.

At their root, Iran’s apocalyptic politics are the result of the failure of the Islamic Republic’s original vision, Khalaji writes. The Islamic Revolution of 1979 began with a utopian promise to create a heaven-on-Earth by enacting Islamic law and establishing a theocratic government. Yet in the last decade, these promises have ceased appealing to the masses, he writes.

According to the Iranian researcher, when the government failed to live up to its promises, many Iranians began searching for alternatives. They found them through the worship of the hidden Mahdi (which is translated from Persian as “the guided one”), who is said by Shiite Islam to be the one who will rule before Judgment Day and rid the world of tyranny and evil. There are a growing number of individuals who to this day claim to be the Mahdi or are in contact with him. The search for spiritual refuge, which in this case comes in its most primitive form courtesy of religion, has created a new world rife with meaning, one in which man has abundant power and supreme significance. This is not limited to religious precepts.

Behind Iran's push for nuclear power, a hidden deity lurks

Yes, that’s true. I prayed for the arrival of the 12th Imam. The owner of the age, as we call him. Because the owner of the age is the symbol of the – justice and brotherly love prevailing around the world.~ Ahmadinejad

Usually its Armageddon that comes with Messiahs.....

I dont know many World leaders that want to see their Messiah come, as badly as this President.

Originally posted by Kino321
i like slayer69's post too,
but i dont think he know's anything about Iran.

edit on 18-8-2012 by Kino321 because: (no reason given)

In all fairness to Slayer, I don't think he was claiming to know a whole lot.....as opposed to seeking to open a discussion so we could all share data and ideas to see what makes sense and learn from it.

I could be reading it wrong but it's why I've been following the thread. I know people say that no one ever changes their mind at ATS but that's just bitter little pills talking and the ones saying it are surely among that group. Not everyone is though.....and I enjoy a nice discussion. Especially on a topic as timely as this one, eh?

Open discussion would be great! However, I think that activity is a thing of the past. The stance of the US/Israel remains largely the same. No nuclear weapons, and nuclear energy, yes! Iran has the decision to make, and not anyone else. The jets are fueled, armed, and on stand by. This issue has gone on for years, and Iran has been given every opportunity to work this out peacefully. Yet, they continue on with the divisive rhetoric, insults, and over-the-top condemnation of those that have wanted nothing more than to have an earnest and respectful dialogue to sort this thing out.

Israel and the US are not the only nations concerned about Iran actions, but other nations in the Middle East as well. Iran needs to realize they are not an island, and are among a sea of nations. It is not too late for Iran to avert catastrophe, because the bombs have not been dropped. However, the time to talk is diminishing rapidly. They are going to have to go out of their way to call off the dogs of war, and it will not be easy. Moreover, they will most certainly take a hit to their pride. As long as peace remains, there remains a window of opportunity for dialogue. Then it becomes a game of trust, but verify!

Great thread so far Slayer. The discussion has been predominantly polite and very informative.

I must say, I don't have a "side" in this. There is crap flying in so many directions from so many sources it's nigh on impossible to convincingly take one sides word over the other.

What I have noticed after watching videos posted in this thread is Ahmadinejad seems to be willing to put himself out there in front of the cameras and speak his mind (or act, I don't know) much more freely than Obama.

Are there interviews out there with Obama being interviewed by Iranian (or other sympathetic) press and being asked such frank questions?

To me, it's rather telling when one is willing to go out and answer the tough questions, or face the questions at least, and the other is not.

Ahmadinejad was even asked of Osama was in Tehran and the tone of the reporter was quite accusatory. Would or has Obama faced such a confronting question and actually answered in such a frank way?

From a (comparatively) uneducated viewpoint, I feel more truthfulness and honesty comes from the Iranian side.

Bottom line for me, as part of the human species, is that I hope we can somehow overcome these issues soon and without escalation.

If there are videos out there like I mentioned above, please post them.

Cheers

Originally posted by PrinceDreamer
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I think we may have clashed heads over this issue before. But I am glad to see you taking a more balanced approach to the subject. But if we are going to talk about the issue we need to look far deeper than does Iran deserve nuclear power and or weapons.

Whilst it is very true that Iran has no love what so ever for the state of Israel (And please lets not get into it being anti Jewish, it is the state of Israel they hate not Jewish people) there are reasons for that hatred. Just as there are genuine reasons for hatred in Israel for Iran, and we can toss these arguments and the validity for them back and forth but people rarely change their mind.

I understand well enough that Iran makes threats to close the Straights, and calls Israel an abomination and an insult to mankind, but lets look at it from their point of view, Iran is not an aggressive nation, there are links to suggest that they are behind Hezbolla and Hamas. But there are also link to Israeli death squads operating in Iran murdering their scientists. Iran is being constantly threatened with bombings and attacks by Israel, its like being in the playground and the big fat bully is constantly poking you in the shoulder, pushing you and pushing you to make you lash out first so he feels he is justified to punch you up and down the street and he has his even bigger friend behind them to back them up and you know you cant win and just keep getting poked and poked.


So what is Iran to do? They threaten to close the straight, they shout a few angry words at Israel, imagine any country making threats to bomb the USA, shouting off when they were going to do it, Would America sit back and let it happen? Hell no, they would blow that country to smithereens and be justified in doing it, yet Iran has this propaganda day in and day out, Iran knows for sure 100% this attack will come, are they just supposed to bend over and lube up? The whole behaviour of Israel is disgusting, Iran cannot have nukes while they stockpile them, and lets face it Israel is far more violent than Iran, the only war Iran has been involved in has been defensive, when they were attack by Iraq, with American weapons, chemical weapons at that and even when they had beaten back Iraq, they didn't continue, they just defended their borders, Can Israel and the US say they behave the same way?

So they continue to suffer the outrageous sanctions, the constant threat of attack and say they will close the straights and Israel are an abomination, is it really surprising? Would I want to live in Iran? Nope, is their country great? Nope, but it is their country and for them to decide how its run, it is not for the west to dictate how every country is run and Israel should shut its mouth because lets face it, the problems in the middle east all stem from the creation of Israel and its rabid dog leaders, if there was never an Israel these issues wouldn't arise. There is an Israel though and we have to deal with it.

The best thing that could happen would be the US and the west just turn round to Israel and say you start any crap and you are on your own, no support what so ever, however that wont happen, to much influence in the US. If the ME saw the west slap Israel back into place nearly all the problems would go away, but it has festered too long.

There will be war and sadly there is very little us sane people can do about it

Dude, your head is buried in the sand. Iran is trying to establish a caliphate. They want to re-create Persia. They are not weak and innocent as you would have us believe. They are extremely dangerous and will continue to be until the theocracy is overthrown by reasonable people.

Dig the OP 100%. My problem is this: We have seen the effects of the Arab spring throughout the middle east. In the place of secular strongmen, militant islam has risen to fill the power vacuum. Iran is already practically run by islam, but what makes anyone think that replacing the Ayatollah will do anything? All it will do, is leave another power vacuum, and then you have the room for a unified, extremist Islamic front, across the entire middle east. Syria is all but in the clutches of this plan. It could be argued that the messiah these people are waiting for, will come to fruition by the downfall of the ruling parties in the middle east, and the unification of extremists across the entire region. In fact, I would argue that this seems to be precisely what the "powers that be" intend to bring about.

Should Iran be kept in check? Absolutely. Does Israel have a right to be worried? Absolutely. But what nobody seems to be asking, is how this issue ties into the Arab spring, and the spread of militant islam as government after government is over thrown with western backing, money, intel, and weapons. What is the bigger picture in all of this?

Could it be, perhaps, that we are being led by the hand to world war 3, with Christians vs Muslims being the order of the day? It certainly seems that way to me.

I would love to see Israel and Iran have a dialog. Unfortunately, the same people at the top of their power structure, seem to have an identical propensity for ignoring the will of their people as our own leaders do.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Should Iran have Nukes? No! Not as long as they continue with the over the top Rhetoric, threats of closing the Straits and funding of certain Covert groups and activities.

Slayer, sometimes we agree but sometimes...

Iran has every right to produce nukes as a deterrent to invasion from those that already have them IMO.

Why does the US have the right? Why is it that so many people forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Why is it that a Nation that has proven that they will kill millions of innocents allowed to have them and another Nation can't? Are they not allowed to fight fire with fire?

Why does Russia have the right? No need to go further here. China? India?

And the final question: What gives the US the right to dictate who has the right to Nukes? A Nation that is the very definition of terrorism and War, Invasions, Illegal occupations? This Country should be the last word on who can defend themselves?

In this day and age, any Nation that wants Nukes to protect their lands against the encroachment of US Imperialism has a right to say...NO!!!

To add, I am NOT a NUKE fan whatsoever but rather a supporter of fighting the good fight against World Domination at the hands of the US.

So who has the right to Nukes? The US makes it very clear that anyone has a right and if not given 'permission', should take THAT as a warning in itself.

Peace

reply to post by SLAYER69
Applause! For making this up, Slayer.

A frank an open discussion of Iran. I haven't read through it all, but, I'd like to chime in if I could.

Every move made or word spoken has been a result to something Iran has said or done. Both israel and the US have been reacting to Irans actions for too long. Iran picks the tune, the US and Israel dance to it.

Now we can HOPE that Iran starts saying something nice, so the reaction to Iran is better for all

or

We can start calling the tune.

Now that can come in the form of talks, or bunker busters. I'd prefer talks. I'm sick of war.

Regardless of whether it be talks or bombs, if we are to have ANY say in the matter then we have to start ACTING instead of REACTING towards Iran.

But that takes leadership, and anything I say is like spitting into a fan.

Great thread, Slayer. I doubt peace in the ME will occur, but maybe peace in ATS can result.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Does Iran have a right to Nuclear energy? Yes!,

Yes, why not your government even sold it to them in the first place(a long time ago).

Who cares what people think about you slayer, you are who you are, this thread won't change anyone's opinion of you i hope you know that

You want to speak about the real issue with an open discussion let's do it.

Does the USA have the right to nuclear energy being the only country to use nuclear weapons on another nation?

Well, being we already have nuclear capabilities, I guess you are suggesting that someone take our nukes away. Seems like Obama is doing a knock up job giving Russia the edge on START and dismantling what's left so what's the worry? Team Obama can't dismantle us fast enough for you?

reply to post by jude11






Even the Japanese have forgiven us, they went on to become a wealthy Capitalist nation. At least till Fukushima. Now they have problems of their own making. Tokyo is very cosmopolitan too.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
How do you reason with this?
news.yahoo.com...
this?
www.foxnews.com...

Either you didn't read the two articles or you are just ignorant.

1. Both articles have the same text. A very good example of COPY AND PASTE journalism (if you can call that journalism)

2. The headline and first sentence of the article say

Iran calls Israel's existence an 'insult,' as prominent rabbi warns it's more than rhetoric

Israel's existence is an "insult to all humanity," Iran's president said Friday in one of his sharpest attacks yet against the Jewish state, as Israel openly debates whether to attack Iran over its nuclear program.

just to state the correct translation of what Ahmadinejad really said, two lines below:

"The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity,"

Blatant propaganda for the ignorant and dumb masses to justify an attack on Iran.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by jude11

 

Even the Japanese have forgiven us, they went on to become a wealthy Capitalist nation. At least till Fukushima. Now they have problems of their own making. Tokyo is very cosmopolitan too.

edit on 19-8-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-8-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-8-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

Forgiven the deaths of 10's of 1000's of innocents?

On the surface maybe but deep down? No.

The US will never forgive a few thousand on 9/11 and the Japanese just let 1000's more go by the wayside?

Nope. Sorry but this just isn't true.

Peace

Okay. I've read through the thread and I must say, I'm disappointed. One the front-line war on ATS, an accord was proposed. I've seen sensible, calm, respectful posts. . . . and the usual knee-jerk hate.

I wonder if this can be seen as an accurate reflection to world events.

Kudos to those who came to this thread to have some honest dialogue. And shame on those who came here looking for a fight.

Originally posted by DeadSeraph
Iran is already practically run by islam, but what makes anyone think that replacing the Ayatollah will do anything? All it will do, is leave another power vacuum, and then you have the room for a unified, extremist Islamic front, across the entire middle east. the will of their people as our own leaders do.

The hope is democracy. Unrealistic or not. It still must be better then the "God" people in charge. EVERY time people put God in charge, it results in genocide.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Applause! For making this up, Slayer.

Now that can come in the form of talks, or bunker busters. I'd prefer talks. I'm sick of war.

Regardless of whether it be talks or bombs, if we are to have ANY say in the matter then we have to start ACTING instead of REACTING towards Iran.

But that takes leadership, and anything I say is like spitting into a fan.

edit on 19-8-2012 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

You can make your selection on November 6th.

reply to post by Yosemite Sam


Aren't the "god" people in charge of Israel as well?

Originally posted by Yosemite Sam

Originally posted by DeadSeraph
Iran is already practically run by islam, but what makes anyone think that replacing the Ayatollah will do anything? All it will do, is leave another power vacuum, and then you have the room for a unified, extremist Islamic front, across the entire middle east. the will of their people as our own leaders do.

The hope is democracy. Unrealistic or not. It still must be better then the "God" people in charge. EVERY time people put God in charge, it results in genocide.

Is that so?

So it worked out better for Egypt, Libya, and Iraq? Funny how all 3 countries were actually BETTER OFF under their sectarian dictators than they are now?

You want to talk about the "God people"? Guess who's taken over in all 3 countries? Have you even educated yourself on the Arab Spring?

EDIT:

Telling how many stars you get for such a short sighted and ridiculous comment. THINK for once.