"Jesus is God" = Mary is "the mother of God"

TextIn this context, we are all sons of God, since we are the work of His hands. He made us in his image, that of a spirit, all good as originally framed by Him. But when it is referred to mean, son of God, such as the heir, begotten, a Partner of God, then that's a corruption;; Jesus would not refer to himself as THAT kind of son of God.

reply to post by queenofangels_17


queenofangels

BINGO ! you explained that perfectly and right on target. I hope you don't mind but copied that and will keep it in my references. I had been pondering the right explanation for quite some time but could not get my mind wrapped around it like you have explained. Thanks for your teaching me again.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by adjensen

 

Your reply was a rant against Catholics.
Its not news, since Christians accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary.

You said....

This title doesn't mean that she pre-existed Jesus, it's just a reference to the fact that she carried him in her womb and provided the DNA for his incarnation.

Well...since Mary " carried him in her womb and provided the DNA for his incarnation", it means Mary is the mother of Jesus. And since you believe Jesus was God, then the woman who gave birth to him becomes the mother of God.

Like I said earlier... most Christian arguments on this subject can be condensed to "Mary is Jesus' mother. Jesus is God. But Mary isn't the mother of God"

A rant against Catholics? I AM a Catholic, lol. Either you misread what I wrote or you don't understand it. I'm not going to repeat it a third time, but I clearly answered your question in a manner that refutes your last line there, at least as regards me.

ETA: lol @ eight_bits -- I was out mowing the lawn and not very quick on the draw :-)

reply to post by adjensen

I AM a Catholic

Whoops. Sorry.
I must have missed that. I'm still trying to acquaint myself with the various groups and factions of christians on ATS.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by adjensen

 

I AM a Catholic

Whoops. Sorry.
I must have missed that. I'm still trying to acquaint myself with the various groups and factions of christians on ATS.

No worries, and I shouldn't worry too much about "various groups and factions" -- let people's words and ideals speak for them.

reply to post by Seede


You're welcome, Seede.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Jesus is God incarnate - John "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'. Mary is His mother. Therefore, Mary is the mother of God.

It's very simple.

But for some reason fundamentalists get all a twitter thinking that by saying that truth - Mary is the mother of God - that somehow raises Mary above Jesus or something. That's not the case at all. She is His mother .. she carried Him in her womb and raised Him and loved Him. Just like the rest of us humans, she had nothing to do with generating the soul/spirit/whatever of her child. God did that.

Jesus is God.
She's His mother.
She's the mother of God.
Simple.

God does not need to incarnate to save His people.

He sends His Messengers with the Guidance, whoever follows them, it's for the good of his soul, whoever rejects them, its for the bad.

Jesus is one such Messenger, he was not tasked except to deliver the message. He did not die for anybody's sin, he delivered the message and after that God raised him up to Himself, without dying, just as Enoch and Elijah was raised up to God without dying.

Mary is Jesus' mother, a saintly woman, and that's all that she is.

Jesus is the son of Mary.

Mary is the mother of Jesus, a man, a Holy One of God.

Conjecture versus Truth.

Truth wins, in the end.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Did you read a single thing I posted?

Read all of my posts. They should answer you.

reply to post by Akragon


“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.” Psalm 82

This phrase was originally said by David and quoted by Jesus.

You are gods, here does not mean God as in the Creator. Here David was addressing the magistrates who were like unto gods because of their authority and power and how they enforce the law of God on Earth.

Please don't look to the letter, Akragon, because some Prophets have spoken darkly, and Jesus himself have spoken in parables, but he did prophesy the coming of the one who will make all things clear and plain.

A man who does the will of God can be higher than an angel, since angels do only the will of God because they have no free will. But a man whom God has given free will can choose to do evil but when he choose to do good and surrender his free will to God, then he becomes higher than an angel.

For this reason did God place humans as viceroys on Earth, while the angels were afraid that they will only shed blood . God knows that which we do not.

Peace!

reply to post by queenofangels_17

A man who does the will of God can be higher than an angel, since angels do only the will of God because they have no free will.

So the ones who are forced to do good are spared, but those who have free will are punished if they don't act as if all free will is gone?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by queenofangels_17

 

A man who does the will of God can be higher than an angel, since angels do only the will of God because they have no free will.

So the ones who are forced to do good are spared, but those who have free will are punished if they don't act as if all free will is gone?

Do you think the angels are forced to do good, rather they chose to do good. This freedom has been offered to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains and even the Heavenly Angels, but they didn't accept it for fear of God.

33:72 Lo! we offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.

Free will is a gift from God but bound by the Law of God. What you are somehow proposing is that God is unfair because He gives us free will and then punish us when we use our free will to do evil.

Then Jesus said: 'Every man, for that he has need, works everything for his own use. But God, who has no need of anything, wrought according to His good pleasure. Wherefore in creating man He created him free in order that he might know that God had no need of him; Verbi gratia, as does a King, who to display his riches, and in order that his slaves may love him more, gives freedom to his slaves.

God, then, created man free in order that he might love His Creator much the more and might know his bounty. For although God is omnipotent, not having need of man, having created him by His omnipotence, he left him free by His bounty, in such wise that he could resist evil and do good. For although God had power to hinder sin, He would not contradict his own bounty for God has no contradiction in order that, his omnipotence and bounty having wrought in man, he should not contradict sin in man, I say, in order that in man might work the mercy of God and his righteousness.

***

For God has commanded us not to sin, and when we sin, to repent, how easy is that?

If Satan had repented, he would have tasted God's mercy and would not have been reprobated.

A reprobate can become an elect of God when he repents of his sins;

An elect of God can become a reprobate if he sins and not repent.

I hope this answers your question.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

 

Sorry but I see no reason to change my position. You say you understand the metaphysical concepts in this theology yet say they hold zero bearing on this... which is just not accurate. As you didn't actually respond to my points but instead just repeated your position over again, we are clearly at a standstill. Not a problem I can post in other threads

Well then, thank you for taking time to post here.

And thank you for your time. What little you were willing.

I look forward to future discussion

reply to post by queenofangels_17

Do you think the angels are forced to do good, rather they chose to do good.

No, they chose to obey "God" for all of eternity. Good does not depend on one being's opinions. One being may based their opinions on an idea of good, but then the angels followed his interpretation or his perspective of it. Otherwise, they would act independently of him, instead of on his orders. No, angels don't act for good. They act for your "God", regardless of whether or not it's good. If they didn't, they would be cast out and be forced to join "Satan", right?

The angels, if they exist as told in the Bible, are perfect slaves. And you agree with me, because you posted this:

Originally posted by queenofangels_17

A man who does the will of God can be higher than an angel, since angels do only the will of God because they have no free will.

To have no free will is to be a slave. Either you don't understand the Bible as well as you pretend to, or the Bible is lying. An interesting idea to consider, is what the angels would do if they were given free will after everything they had seen and done under "God"s command...would they remain loyal, or would they turn on their creator?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by queenofangels_17

 

Do you think the angels are forced to do good, rather they chose to do good.

No, they chose to obey "God" for all of eternity. Good does not depend on one being's opinions. One being may based their opinions on an idea of good, but then the angels followed his interpretation or his perspective of it. Otherwise, they would act independently of him, instead of on his orders. No, angels don't act for good. They act for your "God", regardless of whether or not it's good. If they didn't, they would be cast out and be forced to join "Satan", right?

The angels, if they exist as told in the Bible, are perfect slaves. And you agree with me, because you posted this:

Originally posted by queenofangels_17

A man who does the will of God can be higher than an angel, since angels do only the will of God because they have no free will.

To have no free will is to be a slave. Either you don't understand the Bible as well as you pretend to, or the Bible is lying. An interesting idea to consider, is what the angels would do if they were given free will after everything they had seen and done under "God"s command...would they remain loyal, or would they turn on their creator?

edit on 16-8-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

If the angels were given free will, they will still choose to serve God, because it is in their nature to love goodness, and there is no goodness without God. Do you believe that God is unjust to His Creation? Is this what you're trying to point out?

We are all slaves of God. This is the unvarnished Truth. Free will doesn't make you free from God and His punishment. God gave you free will, but your free will will not prevail over God's will. That is why He is God, He is above His Creation, His ways are not our ways, and who are we to question His Laws?

***I don't pretend to know the Bible, but what I do know are the pure Scriptures that has not been corrupted by man and attested by God Himself.

Jesus answered: 'Man, you call me good, but you err, for God alone is good. And much more do you err in asking why God has not done according to your brain. Yet I will answer you all. I tell you, then, that God our creator in his working conforms not himself to us, wherefore it is not lawful for the creature to seek his own way and convenience, but rather the honour of God his creator, in order that the creature may depend on the Creator and not the Creator on the creature. As God lives, in whose presence my soul stands, if God had granted everything to man, man would not have known himself to be God's servant; and so he would have accounted himself lord of paradise. Wherefore the Creator, who is blessed for evermore, forbade him the food, in order that man might remain subject to him.

And truly I say to you, that whoever has the light of his eyes clear sees everything clear, and draws light even out of darkness itself; but the blind does not so. Wherefore I say that, if man had not sinned, neither I nor you would have known the mercy of God and His righteousness. And if God had made man incapable of sin he would have been equal to God in that matter; wherefore the blessed God created man good and righteous, but free to do that which he pleases in regard to his own life and salvation or damnation.'

Salvation or damnation, you are free to choose.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I'm honestly confused as to your issue here, OP. Are you saying that Christians don't believe this? It is an Orthodox position. Honestly, anyone who doesn't believe this is deviating from the teachings of the Church. Who we say Mary is reveals to us who Christ is- fully God and fully man (hypostatic union). We call her Theotokos (God-bearer). She is human.

While I'm certain this will have no bearing on your belief on this issue, one way or the other, here is an interesting thing or two regarding what we Orthodox say about the Theotokos:

She's the ideal Christian- she is THE human we should look to so as to see what happens when we submit ourselves fully to Christ our God. She is a true handmaid of God. She attained theosis.

She is called the Unwedded Bride.
She gave birth to Christ- she is holy.
Her womb is more spacious than the heavens.
She is the ladder of divine descent.
She gave birth yet remained a virgin.

I'm totally borrowing this because it also explains how we see the Theotokos: southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com...

Appellations of the Theotokos.

Ark.
The Theotokos is often called an Ark, for the Glory of God settled on her, just as the Glory of God descended on the Mercy Seat of the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant (Ex. 25:10-22).

Aaron's Rod.
Just as Aaron's Rod sprouted miraculously in the Old Testament, so too, the Theotokos has budded forth the Flower of Immortality, Christ our God (Num. 17:1-11).

Burning Bush.
On Mt. Sinai, Moses saw the Bush that was burning, but was not consumed. So too, the Theotokos bore the fire of Divinity, but was not consumed (Ex. 3:1-6).

(Golden) Candlestick.
In the Old Testament Tabernacle, there were found in the Sanctuary golden candlesticks. The Theotokos is the Candlestick which held that Light that illumines the world (Ex. 25:31-40).

(Golden) Censer.
Just as the censer holds a burning coal, so too, the Theotokos held the Living Coal. In the Apocalypse, there stands an Angel before the Throne of God, swinging a censer, representing the prayers of the Saints rising up to God. This is also seen as a symbol of the Theotokos, for it is her prayers that find special favor before her Son.

Cloud.
In the Exodus, the Israelites were led out of Egypt by a Cloud of Light, symbolizing the presence of God in their midst. So too, the Theotokos is a Cloud, bearing God within.

Fleece.
In the book of Judges we read the account of the dew which appeared miraculously on Gideon's fleece (Judges 6:36-40). So too, the Dew Christ, appeared miraculously on the Living Fleece the Theotokos.

Holy of Holies.
Into the Holy of Holies only the High Priest could enter. So too, the Theotokos is the Holy of Holies into which only the Eternal High Priest Christ entered (Heb. 9:1-7).

Ladder.
In a dream Jacob saw a ladder ascending to Heaven, with Angels ascending and descending on it. The Theotokos is a Ladder, stretching from earth to Heaven, for on It God descended to man, having become incarnate.

Mountain (from which a Stone was cut not by hand of man).
The Prophet Daniel saw a mountain, from which was cut a stone, not by the hand of man (Dan. 2:34, 45). This is a reference to the miraculous Virgin Birth which was accomplished without the hand of man.

Palace.
The Theotokos was the Palace within which the King Christ our God dwelt.

Pot.
[See Urn]

Stem of Jesse.
In the Nativity Service, the Lord is referred to as the Rod from the Stem of Jesse (Is. 11:1), indicating His lineage from David, which was fulfilled through the Theotokos, who was a scion (or stem) of the line of David, the son of Jesse.

Tabernacle.
The Tabernacle was the place where the Glory of God dwelt. So too, the Glory of God dwelt in the Theotokos the Living Tabernacle (Ex. 40:34).

(Holy) Table.
This refers to the Holy Table (Altar Table) on which, at the Divine Liturgy, the Divine Food is offered. So too, the Theotokos is the Holy Table which bore the Bread of Life.

Temple.
The Prophet Ezekiel speaks of the Temple whose East gate remains sealed, through which only the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered. This clearly prophesies the Virgin Birth of the Theotokos (Ez. 44:1-2).

Throne.
The Theotokos is the Throne upon which Christ, the King of All, rested.

(Golden) Urn.
In the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant contained within itself a golden urn filled with the heavenly manna. The Theotokos is the Urn which contained Christ, the Divine Manna (Heb. 9:1-7).

Vine.
The Theotokos is the Vine which bore the Ripe Cluster (of Grapes), Christ our Lord.

reply to post by queenofangels_17

You are gods, here does not mean God as in the Creator. Here David was addressing the magistrates who were like unto gods because of their authority and power and how they enforce the law of God on Earth.

I don't like that particular translation... try the KJV

Perhaps he was refering to the "divine" in all men...

In that passage Jesus says.."IF you call them gods, and i tell you i am the son of God... how am i commiting blasphemy?"

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Please don't look to the letter, Akragon, because some Prophets have spoken darkly, and Jesus himself have spoken in parables, but he did prophesy the coming of the one who will make all things clear and plain.

I believe Jesus made everything quite clear... why would there be a need for another?

A man who does the will of God can be higher than an angel, since angels do only the will of God because they have no free will. But a man whom God has given free will can choose to do evil but when he choose to do good and surrender his free will to God, then he becomes higher than an angel.

Kinda like "the first will be last, and the last will be first"?

Good and evil are very subjective by the way...

For this reason did God place humans as viceroys on Earth

Unfortunatly we are ruled by the rich... And i don't think that was part of the plan

reply to post by Akragon


Ok let's take your translation.

If ye call them gods unto whom the word of God came..meaning the Prophets of God

In this context, how can it be blasphemy if Jesus called himself the son of such a god, or a Prophet? Is he not called the son of David, a Prophet of God?

The works that Jesus did, is not his work but the work of God. God gave him these miracles as a sign to mankind, so that they may believe that Jesus was sent by God. Although the disbelievers in his time say that it's the devil who is helping him, not God. For which did Jesus say, " A kingdom divided agaist itself cannot stand. If he cast out devils in the name of the Devil how could his kingdom stand?

I believe Jesus made everything quite clear... why would there be a need for another?

Jesus made everything clear, but after him came the corruption of his gospel, by which his gospel was annulled. Is it not proof that they broke off in different sects, each one rejoicing in its tenets, one believing Jesus to be just a man who was inspired by God, another one believing that Jesus is God, another that Jesus is son of God who died for our sins, another sect believing that God is three in one. If Jesus made it clear, why all these differences?

If God did not send someone to make it clear then how will they know the truth of that wherein they differed?

98:1 Those who disbelieve among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters could not have left off (erring) till the clear proof came unto them,

98:2 A messenger from Allah, reading purified pages

98:3 Containing correct scriptures.

98:4 Nor were the People of the Scripture divided until after the clear proof came unto them.

98:5 And they are ordered naught else than to serve Allah, keeping religion pure for Him, as men by nature upright, and to establish worship and to pay the poor due. That is true religion.

98:6 Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

98:7 (And) lo! those who believe and do good works are the best of created beings.

98:8 Their reward is with their Lord: Gardens of Eden underneath which rivers flow, wherein they dwell for ever. Allah hath pleasure in them and they have pleasure in Him. This is in store for him who feareth his Lord.

reply to post by queenofangels_17

Jesus made everything clear, but after him came the corruption of his gospel, by which his gospel was annulled. Is it not proof that they broke off in different sects, each one rejoicing in its tenets, one believing Jesus to be just a man who was inspired by God, another one believing that Jesus is God, another that Jesus is son of God who died for our sins, another sect believing that God is three in one. If Jesus made it clear, why all these differences?

The differences happen because not everyone listens to his words... Most prefer to listen to what others said about him as opposed to his actual words.

He never claimed to be God... John made that statement...

He never claimed equality to God... that was also John, and paul reiterated that statement...

I would be interested to hear exactly what you believe is false or corrupted in the gospels?

They have not been annulled as you say... as a matter of fact, i believe those four books are the only useful information in the bible.

The only thing thats been "annulled" is the authority of the bible as the "word of God"... and that came with the introduction of the internet. The church no longer has the power to tell people what to read... and those that do actually read the bible that are free from religious influence, are also free to reject what they see as incorrect.

reply to post by queenofangels_17

98:6 Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

So basically, anyone who doesn't believe is literally a monster walking this earth?

Sounds very loving...

reply to post by queenofangels_17

If the angels were given free will, they will still choose to serve God, because it is in their nature to love goodness, and there is no goodness without God.

Refer back to my previous post, if you must, where I showed you saying that angels have no free will in serving "God". Now, if they would still do so given free will, when why don't they have free will? Generally, a well-behaved dog is not kept on a leash, because that would prove inconvenient. A leash, or lack of free will, is only convenient so long as the alternative is inevitably or probably inconvenient. I think Homo Sapiens has done a glorious job of proving that point.

Do you believe that God is unjust to His Creation? Is this what you're trying to point out?

I believe your idea of "God" is unjust, yes. Your character of "God", as portrayed in your Bible and in your beliefs, is very thoroughly unjust, for as benign and loving as you claim him to be.

We are all slaves of God.

Ah, at last...an honest Christian. Yes, slavery is the essence of the deal we are offered in the Bible. And I despise such a bargain. That is the reason I became a theosopher, instead of a Christian. Such deals, such bargains, such so-called "gifts", are not authentic. They are more deceiving than they are helpful, such as it applies to me. But that is my view. You are welcome to take any view you like...that is your right. I merely wish to show you the light (no, not Jesus), and let you choose from there. You can lead a horse to water...

God gave you free will, but your free will will not prevail over God's will.

Then free will was given to create the illusion of choice?

That is why He is God, He is above His Creation, His ways are not our ways, and who are we to question His Laws?

Well, that's the same thing they said about slavery, isn't it? And you can see how well that went...

wherefore it is not lawful for the creature to seek his own way and convenience, but rather the honour of God his creator

I apologize for my low bulls**t tolerance, but I got as far as the line above and I stopped reading. No, no, and again now. If it brings you peace and comfort to wallow in the same worn rut over and over again, then so be it. You have chosen your potential in life. You have chosen your range of sight. That is your bed to lie in. I will not limit myself so cruelly. And I hope that one day, you will join the ranks of former Catholics, Christians, Mormons, Baptists, Angelicans and the like...who have seen that their faith isn't as flawless as they were led to believe, and seek a purer source of wisdom.

Salvation or damnation, you are free to choose.

I believe damnation is a self-inflicted condition. If you don't damn yourself, you will not be damned. After all, Source, The One, The Infinite Creator, Universal Energy, whatever you wish to call it, is all about learning and opportunity. To condemn a man eternally is to remove all chances of ever learning from his mistakes and rectifying his wrongs. To remove that chance is against the nature of the universe. You must always have an open door by which to learn, grow, and succeed.

To deny that opportunity is to lock your child in the basement...forever. And no loving parent, no loving creator, would ever, ever do that. If it's destructive, recycle it. If there's no chance, recycle it. If there's a chance to change, provide that opportunity. Never, ever deny an opportunity to become better.

That's the love I believe in. And that's the love that your creator lacks, because his is a very narrow lane of improvement, more for the benefit of one (himself) than the benefit of all. A round education is a very good thing, and that's not what your faith offers. And you know what? It looks very, very, very suspiciously like it was designed that way. Designed to serve himself more than it would ever serve us. That's what I see in the Bible, anyway. A bargain intended to give us the short end of the proverbial stick. And who are we to question it, right? Let's be glad he doesn't stomp our faces into the rock and start over.

Those are my views in this matter. So, thanks, but no thanks.

reply to post by Akragon


Praise be to God, for the internet, then.



You asked about some of the words in the Bible which I believe to be corruption, there are too many. But I will try to list them down, side by side with the true and uncorrupted version, If God wills.

Let's begin with the Promises of God to Abraham.

Abraham would become a great nation and a great name.
God would bless those that blessed him and curse those that cursed him
That in Abraham eventually ALL nations will be blessed.

To whom was the promise made? which seed of Abraham? To have the answer for this we must know which son our Father Abraham was about to sacrifice; Was it Isaac as was written in the Bible or was it Ismael?

The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring[a] all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.” Gen 22:15-19

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Gen 22:2

"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." Gen 22:9

Why do I believe that it is corruption? Notice here that stress is being given to the word only son and then followed by Isaac. Do you find something strange with this?

Jesus will answer for you.

As God lives, so greatly did Abraham love God, that he not only brake in pieces the false idols and forsook his father and mother, but was willing to slay his own son in obedience to God.

The high priest answered: "This I ask of you, and I do not seek to slay you, wherefore tell us: Who was this son of Abraham?" Jesus answered: "The zeal of your honour, O God, inflames me, and I cannot hold my peace. Truly I say, the son of Abraham was Ishmael, from whom must be descended the Messiah promised to Abraham, that in him should all the tribes of the earth be blessed." Then was the high priest wroth, hearing this, and cried out: "Let us stone this impious fellow, for he is an Ishmaelite, and has spoken blasphemy against Moses and against the Law of God."

***
'Verily I say unto you, that every prophet when he is come hath borne to one nation only the mark of the mercy of God. And so their words were not extended save to that people to which they were sent. But the messenger of God, when he shall come, God shall give to him as it were the seal of his hand, insomuch that he shall carry salvation and mercy to all the nations of the world that shall receive his doctrine. He shall come with power upon the ungodly, and shall destroy idolatry, insomuch that he shall make Satan confounded; for so promised God to Abraham, saying: "Behold, in thy seed I will bless all the tribes of the earth; and as thou hast broken in pieces the idols, O Abraham, even so shall thy seed do."'

James answered: 'O master, tell us in whom this promise as made; for the Jews say "in Isaac," and the Ishmaelites say 'in Ishmael." '

Jesus answered: 'David, whose son was he, and of what lineage?'

James answered: 'Of Isaac; for Isaac was father of Jacob, and Jacob was father of Judah, of whose lineage is David.'

Then said Jesus: 'And the messenger of God when he shall come, of what lineage will he be?'

The disciples answered: 'Of David.'

Whereupon Jesus said: 'Ye deceive yourselves; for David in spirit calleth him lord, saying thus: "God said to my lord, sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool. God shall send forth thy rod which shall have lordship in the midst of thine enemies." If the messenger of God whom ye call Messiah were son of David, how should David call him lord? Believe me, for verily I say to you, that the promise was made in Ishmael, not in Isaac.'

Thereupon said the disciples: 'O master, it is thus written in the book of Moses, that in Isaac was the promise made.'

Jesus answered, : 'It is so written, but Moses wrote it not, nor Joshua, but rather our rabbins, who fear not God. Verily I say unto you, that if ye consider the words of the angel Gabriel, ye shall discover the malice of our scribes and doctors. For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loveth thee; but how shall the world know the love that thou bearest to God? Assuredly it is necessary that thou do something for..

cont..