Adam and Jesus...the "sons of God"

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

The spirit may be "divine" in origin. But that does not make the human body "divine".

Well, I'm sure the Annunaki, who are said to have created these carbon based human receptacles thought them to be of a Divine Origin. But I agree that the body itself is not Divine, in fact, it is very susceptible to injury and organ failure. Virus infections invade almost at will. But the Spirit? That is Divine. One can either live as a human being, or live as a Spirit who inhabits a human body. I choose the latter.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Akragon

 

Is the creation "created" from nothing or created OF the creator?

Lets say you build yourself a table from materials that you own.

Is that table made of the same essence as you... just because you built it?
Or were you simply in a position to build a table because you owned the materials and knew how to make a table?

My point is all of reality is Gods property. God creates as He pleases.

And all boils down to the Atom, of which all things are made and composed of. All one does to create is a simple, or complex manipulation of Atoms, and a vibratory arrangement of the charge within. It all begins with the Atom. Everything is made up from them, that coffe table in your living room, the Moon, everything in the universe is made from Atoms. Perhaps a typo turned Atom into "Adam?"

Here is a site that explains about the Atom:
How Atoms Work

Atoms are made up of 3 types of particles electrons , protons and neutrons. These particles have different properties. Electrons are tiny, very light particles that have a negative electrical charge (-). Protons are much larger and heavier than electrons and have the opposite charge, protons have a positive charge. Neutrons are large and heavy like protons, however neutrons have no electrical charge. Each atom is made up of a combination of these particles.

source

I guess you know that Higgs and Boson are looking for the god particle, the entity that gives mass to particles of the atoms. It is part of the big super-collider studies in the news lately.

So, these days the simple atom model is incomplete.


There is a cute story of Higgs and Boson wanted to go to Catholic church but were turned away because of their beliefs in sciences. Their reply was that your church cannot have mass without our god particle.

reply to post by autowrench

And all boils down to the Atom, of which all things are made and composed of. All one does to create is a simple, or complex manipulation of Atoms, and a vibratory arrangement of the charge within. It all begins with the Atom. Everything is made up from them, that coffe table in your living room, the Moon, everything in the universe is made from Atoms.

Amazing.... but ummmm... I know.... and I dont see what your post has to do with the subject I was discussing earlier.

PS- I wish I had a coffee table in my living room.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by MagnumOpus

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

While I am selling it? Do a simple history check... the virgin birth has been primary Christian doctrine for 2000 years now. And James and Jude were not older brothers for one, for two they were half brothers.

edit on 7-8-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Prove they were half brothers and not older.

NO hand waving, show the precise citations from the Biblical records.

Sure

Now you show citations from the Biblical record that says Jesus's half brothers and sisters were older..

NO hand waving either.

On cannot cite the Bible without engaging in hand waving, as much of it is hearsay and embellished allegory.

Even Matthew has the story for a dream, where he was not present, which is the basis for Jesus being special. Yet, Matthew tells the Kid was supposed to be called "Immanuel", or "god is with us", and Joseph names the kid "Jesus", which is "save or to deliver". So, it appears Joseph didn't buy the dream of Jesus being god, but messiah fits.


Then, if we do engage your dogma imaginations on Jesus is god, then Joseph, Mary, James, and all the others are his children. Yet, Jesus was born via Mary, making him their brother.

Such a tangled web for those that practice deceil and engage in fantasy rather than reality seeking.

Most know non-sense when they see it.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


Sooooo, you have no documentation to show?

Quite to the contrary.

1. I used you to show Jesus had brothers and sisters older and younger than he. You tell that Jesus is god and he is human. So god is the father for everyone on the planet, including Joseph. Mary, James, et al. The Jesus is also the son, so he is everyone's brother and sister. So, he has lots of Brothers and Sisters older and younger.

2. I also explained the Essene methods are to distance from the family, so the Greek words of choice would indicate a distance rather than a closeness.

3. I pointed out that Matthew isn't much of a witness to anything, since he reports hearsay dreams, but Joseph names the child the dream told him to call Immanuel as Jesus. So, Joseph puts down the dream's worth and appears to name Jesus for Joseph saving him from being fatherless and Mary from shame.

4. Then I pointed out the Essene story is much more balanced.

5. I pointed out that lots of the Jewish consider Mary a fallen woman and Jesus conceived as illegitimate. You see most of the Jewish and most of the Islamic don't buy this story and call you bad names for being gullible.


BUT, I do like the catch 22 that number one sets up based upon your belief that Jesus is god and Jesus is human. You basically tell everyone that Jesus is inbreed. So, he is his own father, and Mary and Joseph are his brother and sister. Both older than he.

So, now you get to figure how to get out of this dilimma you have for yourself calling Jesus as god and human and son of Mary. These are your beliefs come back to bite you in the rear.

Plus, there are a bunch of URL's that speak to Jesus Brothers and Sisters. But Number 1 appears to show this huge error of your ways. In science, when one finds a mess up of this magnitude, the whole theme is written off, but with the Christians, inbreeding is excellent religion.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Fine I will say it, a father is a creator, sorry.

reply to post by greyer

Fine I will say it, a father is a creator, sorry.

Theres a big difference.

A father in human terms is a co-creator... seeing how he needs a wife to do the creating.

"Father", with regard to Adam and Jesus is a creator.
Adam was directly created.
Jesus was also directly created but inside Mary.

Both are called "sons of God" in the bible. But only Jesus is said to be "the only begotten son of God" and "divine". Why do you suppose that is?

reply to post by MagnumOpus

Such a tangled web for those that practice deceil and engage in fantasy rather than reality seeking.

I may not agree with everything you say.... but this is pretty much true.

Christians who believe that Jesus is God have no choice but to accept that Mary is the "mother of God".
Even if they make their usual claim such as "Jesus is fully man and fully God", Mary is the "mother of this fully man and fully God". (And ironically, they like to point fingers at the Catholics for venerating Mary. )

One can twist scriptures and verses, but not the simple logic that whatever Jesus is, Mary is the mother of that.

What they dont understand is that it would be completely biblical to understand Jesus as a human child of Mary... and not God. The title "son of God" can still apply to Jesus in the same way as it gets applied to Adam.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Both are called "sons of God" in the bible. But only Jesus is said to be "the only begotten son of God" and "divine". Why do you suppose that is?

Divine path. First you have to believe that everyone has a path or destiny if they step on it right. I am not here to claim anything I don't know. According to history, it is easy to see that Jesus was set apart from everyone in the world. Just because he was a a prophet who was put in the position to give his life for the world. He said that he would sit around heaven's throne at a table of prophets. This is why he can seperate himself in the sentence and say 'begotten.' People rarely understand that if Jesus spoke in parables it means Jeses like metaphors, I like metaphors, which means you can't take something we say and try to make it so concrete meaning one thing - it means two.

Christ is the divine light of God.
Christ is the light of consciousness. This moment of presence is Christ. This isness that is seen and experienced right now is Christ.
This is all that exists in reality (in God).
This light is the sun (son) of God.
This presence is divine.

The past and future and somewhere else is not divine. These only appear in the mind of man.
Man appears in God.
God does not appear, he just shines the light and sees the light.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

The title "son of God" can still apply to Jesus in the same way as it gets applied to Adam.

At what point in this thread did you come to that conclusion since the OP seems to argue against that?
Ignoring other key aspects of the NT and giving an artificial emphasis on one spot that was never meant to have that sort of theological significance is what supports your conclusion.

reply to post by jmdewey60

At what point in this thread did you come to that conclusion since the OP seems to argue against that?
Ignoring other key aspects of the NT and giving an artificial emphasis on one spot that was never meant to have that sort of theological significance is what supports your conclusion.

Come to what conclusion?

"The title "son of God" can still apply to Jesus in the same way as it gets applied to Adam."?

How exactly does the OP argue against that?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Come to what conclusion?

The one I just quoted above.

"The title "son of God" can still apply to Jesus in the same way as it gets applied to Adam."?

I don't think you ever establish that by your argument. In Luke 3:38, it is saying Adam originated from God, and not from some ordinary father. The fact that a genealogy is listed means Jesus had a genealogy, where Adam did not, other than who formed him, namely, God.

How exactly does the OP argue against that?

By saying, "Humans are not divine... and divinity is not born of humans.", it sounds like you are saying Jesus was a human creation.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I don't think you ever establish that by your argument. In Luke 3:38, it is saying Adam originated from God, and not from some ordinary father. The fact that a genealogy is listed means Jesus had a genealogy, where Adam did not, other than who formed him, namely, God.

Adam is called "the son of God" because he was formed by God.
Jesus who was also formed by God,except in the womb of a woman... is also called "the son of God".

"Son of God" can only be a title. It cant mean something for one and something else for another.
In the case of Christianity, Adam is understood as human..and Jesus is seen as "God"... despite both being created by God.

By saying, "Humans are not divine... and divinity is not born of humans.", it sounds like you are saying Jesus was a human creation.

I am NOT saying Jesus was a human creation.
I am saying Jesus was a divine creation.... I thought that was implied in the OP when I said "Jesus and Adam are both unique human beings being direct creations of God."

God created Jesus.... but Jesus was human nonetheless.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Adam is called "the son of God" because he was formed by God.

And how do you know that to be true? If it was, then we would all be "formed by God" then.

"Son of God" can only be a title.

Based on what?

It cant mean something for one and something else for another.

According to what rule? Adam as far as I know was not referred to by that title, it was just a way of saying the genealogy ends at this point.

In the case of Christianity, Adam is understood as human..and Jesus is seen as "God"... despite both being created by God.

The person who became Jesus was a god, and was not created inside Mary by God or anyone else. That she was pregnant was something caused by the spirit of God working, which is something different. It would have been an otherwise natural physical event but was timed in a particular way to coincide with the marriage of the parents, but in modern times we understand that it could take place by ordinary means, in this case by God rather than doctors and birth labs to bring the sperm and egg together to generate an embryo.

I am NOT saying Jesus was a human creation.

You seem to be saying everything human is a human creation, with this argument that concludes that is Jesus is God then Mary is the mother of God.

I am saying Jesus was a divine creation.... I thought that was implied in the OP when I said "Jesus and Adam are both unique human beings being direct creations of God."

God created Jesus.... but Jesus was human nonetheless.

But it never says that. God created the circumstance that Mary became pregnant at a particular time, probably to avoid some activity between the parents that people back then considered to ne nasty.

reply to post by jmdewey60


1.
sk0rp : Adam is called "the son of God" because he was formed by God.
jm: And how do you know that to be true? If it was, then we would all be "formed by God" then.

Its my belief that Adam was formed by God. Are you suggesting something else?

We are "formed by God", in the sense the structure and design of our bodies are the designs of God, Im not debating that. But its also understood that we are the product of 2 humans who were designed to procreate. Adam had pretty much the same kind of body, but he did not have a genealogy because he was literally "formed" by God.

2.
sk0rp: "Son of God" can only be a title.
jm :Based on what?

This is somewhat answered by the very next line of your own post :
"it was just a way of saying the genealogy ends at this point.".
Meaning it was a way of saying "creation of God" or "design of God" and nothing more, i.e- a title.

reply to post by jmdewey60



3.

The person who became Jesus was a god,

Sounds like personal speculation.
At no point did the angel who spoke to Mary ever say anything about a god becoming Jesus.
We know from their conversation that Jesus was only a son who Mary was being blessed with...because she had found favor with God. (Ref : Luke 1:28-38)


4.

and was not created inside Mary by God or anyone else.

I said "Created inside Mary by God" for lack of a better way to describe how exactly God had Jesus growing inside her.

Point being, it was the work of God. I don't know how but I do know that "nothing is impossible with God".... as the angel said when he announced the coming of another child, being born of an old couple (Elizabeth and Zechariah).


5.
sk0rp: I am NOT saying Jesus was a human creation.
jm: You seem to be saying everything human is a human creation, with this argument that concludes that is Jesus is God then Mary is the mother of God.

Everything human need not always be a human creation...
In the case of Jesus... he is human. But was not created in the "human" way... rather he started miraculously growing in Mary. In the case of Adam...he is also human, but was created directly by God.
I thought I had made this pretty clear in the OP.

The dilemma for people who call Jesus God is that they have no choice but to acknowledge that Mary was the mother of God.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

In the case of Jesus... he is human. But was not created in the "human" way... rather he started miraculously growing in Mary.

Do you think every person who was born from the work of a fertility clinic is a miracle?

3. Sounds like personal speculation.

Paul said Jesus was in the form of god. I think the only persons who would be "in the form of God" would be a god.