Fear or Love, which one are you?

My intention is to give my everlasting, never ending happiness and love to all those at ATS and around the world.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I apologize. When someone mentions they are without fear, or they live their life without fear, yet they say they feel fear, I take it as a contradiction. No one can live their life without fear, plain and simple. No matter how much someone twists the language, they can't go through life without fear. It would be safer and more accurate to say "I experience fear, but I know how to deal with it." And yes, I realize I'm being maybe a little too critical, but there's no reason to mystify fear or reduce it to something other than its definition:

fear |fi(ə)r|
noun
an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.

You and I have lived different lives, and have different experiences.

I see nothing to fear. All experiences are learning experiences, even what most people would call "scary" experiences.

I don't see "fear" as unpleasant. Like I said, I accept that surge of adrenaline and use it to my advantage. I don't interpret it as a negative or unpleasant feeling, I interpret it as a reaction to the environment. I prefer to operate on logic, not emotion. Thus, "fear" is not useful to me.

This is probably because I spent the first seventeen years of my life being periodically beaten, raising (feeding, bathing, caring for) several siblings, and otherwise surviving life without positive guidance. I was never comforted or coddled. There is no use for fear in my existence, feeling fearful is just a hindrance - I learned this at a very young age.

In other words, to live without fear, you'd have to skate through life without no realization that you might get hurt, or you might be in a dangerous situation. Fear is telling you something. It's on your side. To do your own instincts a great injustice and to trick yourself into saying fear is merely a negative feeling, when in fact it is there to save your life, is dishonesty... at least in my opinion.

I'm not trying to offend, but I appreciate fear for the many times its saved my life. Maybe it's true and some people don't need it; but then I'd say they need to get out more.

With all due respect, you are in no position to judge whether or not I "need to get out more". Who are you? Do you know me in real life? Do you know all of my life experiences? What, exactly, qualifies you to be the judge of whether someone else's life experiences are good enough to qualify as "having gone out enough to be acceptable"?

This statement is just ludicrous to me.

I apologize, LesMisanthrope, but I am laughing at your words right now. I feel bad laughing, but I am laughing at how bizarre your point of view is to me. I just can't understand where you are coming from with that opinion.

You appreciate fear as you experience it. I giggle at fear as I experience it, because it only occurs at silly moments. When I am in a dangerous situation, I feel no fear - I react with logic and confidence, because I know how to survive without succumbing to fear.

What's the big deal? We are different people, with different experiences and different life philosophies.

Why is it so unbelievable that I don't care about fear?

Originally posted by brianmg5
We are constantly choosing in any given moment to either love or be afraid. It's in every decision we make. I've spent years living in an Us vs Them mentality. Recently it occurred to me that I fear and hate about half of my fellow human beings. I asked myself why. I didn't come up with a clear answer but i did realize something...

I want to love you all. I know many of you have done things that in my opinion are unethical, insensitive, and directly opposed to my ideals. But my ideals don't leave any room for hate.

I know their are many reasons to justify my hate for you but I deny them all in the name of Forgiveness and Love. And by forgiveness I don't mean "you did something obnoxious but since I'm loving I'll tolerate it." What I mean is that I literally recognize that you've done no wrong. You are as perfect as you were when you were born.

Right and wrong are relative terms. One can't exist without the other. If you lived in a perfect world where "wrong" didn't exist, you would have no bearing as to what "right" even means. It would be a non-existent. Just as their is no "up" without "down." Therefore I conclude that making mistakes is a natural part of being a human being. We are perfect, mistakes and all.

Even if you were to convince me that human beings value is defined by their mistakes, I would still rather live in a world where I've forgiven my fellows. Where I look into your eyes and tell myself, "The god in me sees the god in you."

Star and Flag, brianmg, for a very relevant post and a truth for the ages. You are exactly right in that there are but two choices in every concious decision, and these are Love, and Fear. No other choice is available. This was taught me a very long time ago.

"If you hear the song I sing
you will understand...listen
You hold the key to love and fear
all in your trembling hand
Just one key unlocks them both
Its there at your command"
The Youngbloods "Get Together."

I try to project Love wherever I travel, but I encounter a great deal of Fear along the way. Many are afraid to even question their own minds, and their own faith. Here is the Key, folks:
Look inside for all things. Encoded within your DNA is the entire "You" program, and in some cases the coding for the entire universe is there. Humanity is a great deal more than most give credit for, and some of us can see that, but many cannot. Find the Love within, and project that out to all others. Fear is not your enemy, but rather your friend, let it warn you of pitfalls and dangers you encounter. Never let it be your life.

Originally posted by ottobot
With all due respect, you are in no position to judge whether or not I "need to get out more". Who are you? Do you know me in real life? Do you know all of my life experiences? What, exactly, qualifies you to be the judge of whether someone else's life experiences are good enough to qualify as "having gone out enough to be acceptable"?

This statement is just ludicrous to me.

I apologize, LesMisanthrope, but I am laughing at your words right now. I feel bad laughing, but I am laughing at how bizarre your point of view is to me. I just can't understand where you are coming from with that opinion.

You appreciate fear as you experience it. I giggle at fear as I experience it, because it only occurs at silly moments. When I am in a dangerous situation, I feel no fear - I react with logic and confidence, because I know how to survive without succumbing to fear.

What's the big deal? We are different people, with different experiences and different life philosophies.

Why is it so unbelievable that I don't care about fear?

Don't feel bad and laugh all you want. I was generalizing. I don't know anything about you and don't care to. If you take it as aimed at you, that's not my problem. I was stating my opinion. But if you take offence with my words, maybe you should conquer your other emotions as well.

I don't find it unbelievable that you don't care about fear. I find it unbelievable that someone can say they live without fear, which you asserted many times. Every human body has fear. It is a natural instinct. I respect and acknowledge mine, you giggle at yours. Nonetheless, we both, at some times, feel fear. It is unavoidable.

If you are so fearless, jump off a cliff, skydive without a parachute, set yourself on fire, walk into highway traffic etc. etc. etc. Emotions kickstart logic. When we fear death, we logically find ways to avoid it. This whole thread is people fearing fear. That is what you should be laughing at.

People don't succumb to fear, they succumb to stupidity. They act with stupidity. Fear tells them to be cautious or to be on guard, it doesn't tell them to lash out or hate, their stupidity does.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Don't feel bad and laugh all you want. I was generalizing. I don't know anything about you and don't care to. If you take it as aimed at you, that's not my problem. I was stating my opinion. But if you take offence with my words, maybe you should conquer your other emotions as well.

So, you admit that you are generalizing about other people whom you don't care to take the time to try to understand?

This, LesMisanthrope, leads me to the question: What is your motive in participating in this conversation, if you've already made up your mind? If there can be no other type of understanding, what is the point in returning to debate with people who may disagree with you?

I am coming at this debate without emotion. I am not offended in the least. I am responding to your opinions with my opinions as they have been shaped by my experiences. I'm not sure why you believe I am having an emotional response to your words; perhaps this is what you wish to believe? As you had directed your post in response to one of my own posts, it would be logical to read your statements as if they were directed toward me.

On my part, I am trying to understand your perspective. It just doesn't make sense to me, because I don't understand your thought process.

As I stated earlier, I feel like we are talking about two different subjects.

I don't find it unbelievable that you don't care about fear. I find it unbelievable that someone can say they live without fear, which you asserted many times. Every human body has fear. It is a natural instinct. I respect and acknowledge mine, you giggle at yours. Nonetheless, we both, at some times, feel fear. It is unavoidable.

As I explained earlier, I do not live in fear. When I say the phrase, "I live without fear." I am using the word Live as a verb. I go through life and make the choices I make to live my life. These choices are not influenced by fear. This is what I mean by saying I live without fear.

As I stated initially, this does not mean I do not feel fear. This means, simply, that I choose not to let fear determine the outcome of my life.

If you are so fearless, jump off a cliff, skydive without a parachute, set yourself on fire, walk into highway traffic etc. etc. etc. Emotions kickstart logic. When we fear death, we logically find ways to avoid it. This whole thread is people fearing fear. That is what you should be laughing at.

Again, you are misinterpreting my meaning of "to live without fear".

In my current life, I use my brain to avoid dangerous situations and, thus, survive. I would not jump off a cliff without some type of safety to ensure my survival. Likewise, I would not skydive without a parachute because it would mean certain death.

I do not fear death, because it is just a transition to another type of existence.

However, I choose not to court death, because I feel like I have more to learn in this particular existence. If I die, I die. I'm not particularly worried about it. I accept that I will die at some unknown moment. I figure that I should live while I'm alive, though. (See my signature?)

I will tell you, quite honestly, that I have walked into traffic, driven on a highway with my eyes closed, and performed many other very dangerous behaviors without fear - "just to see what would happen". This is because, at the time, I wanted to die. I hoped I would die. Thus, I intentionally put myself into dangerous situations to see if I would end up dying. The prospect of death made me smile.

Needless to say, this unfeeling and unconcerned behavior was a result of a very deep depression and belief in my own of worthlessness and actions of self-hate.

People don't succumb to fear, they succumb to stupidity. They act with stupidity. Fear tells them to be cautious or to be on guard, it doesn't tell them to lash out or hate, their stupidity does.

I disagree with you on this point. Even the "smartest" of humans will react with anger or hate to other humans they fear. This is because the roots of anger and hate are fear.

When I say "succumb to fear", I mean that one reacts to a situation with inaction... also known as "being paralyzed by fear". Let's use your grizzly bear situation as an example. A person who uses his/her fear to survive the situation is using fear as it is intended. A person who stands in one spot as the bear charges him/her is paralyzed by fear and is mauled because s/he has succumbed to fear.

For myself, I would not be in a place where grizzlies were ranging. I would have planned my outdoor excursion at a time of year where the grizzlies were asleep or ranging higher up in the mountains. This is because I respect animals and realize that my excursion would be intruding on their home. If I came upon a grizzly even though I'd planned around its life cycle, I would respect him/her and remove myself from the situation. If I was killed, it would be my own fault. I accept that responsibility.

I completely agree with you. I believe that everyone is fear. We all have things to be afraid of, sure, love can subside the fear in you for just a given amount of time. Then that love goes away and you're stuck with fear again, back to square 1.

Originally posted by MbretM
I completely agree with you. I believe that everyone is fear. We all have things to be afraid of, sure, love can subside the fear in you for just a given amount of time. Then that love goes away and you're stuck with fear again, back to square 1.

I don't know, I think that if you use that love to understand your fear, you will be able to manage and eliminate your fear completely. The love you learned to feel remains where that fear used to reside.

I guess it depends on what type of fear and love you are talking about.

Do you mean in interpersonal relationships, MbretM? Or, just fear/love in general?

reply to post by ottobot

I apologize for misunderstanding. When you said you "Live without fear" I was positive that you actually meant you live without fear. Maybe you don't live in fear or maybe you don't act in fear, but as you mentioned, you aren't actually without fear. I am only reading your words and making conclusions on them. I cannot magically understand the hidden meanings behind them.

As I explained earlier, I do not live in fear. When I say the phrase, "I live without fear." I am using the word Live as a verb. I go through life and make the choices I make to live my life. These choices are not influenced by fear. This is what I mean by saying I live without fear.

As I stated initially, this does not mean I do not feel fear. This means, simply, that I choose not to let fear determine the outcome of my life.

Live is a verb, it cannot be used otherwise. Fear is a noun, which you've consistently mentioned you live without. Now that we both know that you do feel fear, we can also both conclude that you cannot live life without fear. It's there. It's real.

We are in agreement about choices not being influenced by fear. If they are, this shows a lack of emotional control. I commend your mastery of emotions as I am the same way. To let your emotions guide your choices is stupidity; and this is what I meant when stupidity guides choices. If a smart man cannot control his emotions, then he is not smart in my books.

For myself, I would not be in a place where grizzlies were ranging. I would have planned my outdoor excursion at a time of year where the grizzlies were asleep or ranging higher up in the mountains. This is because I respect animals and realize that my excursion would be intruding on their home. If I came upon a grizzly even though I'd planned around its life cycle, I would respect him/her and remove myself from the situation. If I was killed, it would be my own fault. I accept that responsibility.

A few tips in case you actually consider doing so. If you wait until grizzlies hibernate to head into the woods, which is winter, and there are many feet of snow, I guarantee you'd wish you went at a different time. You'd be safer if you went when the bears were awake. If you worry about disrespecting the animals, you might as well never go into the woods as thousands upon thousands of species of animals call the woods their home (maybe not where you live). The best tracker who ever lived couldn't avoid every animal in a vast forest. No amount of planning the huge plethora of life cycles would help. Maybe it would be logically best for you never to go at all.

This, LesMisanthrope, leads me to the question: What is your motive in participating in this conversation, if you've already made up your mind? If there can be no other type of understanding, what is the point in returning to debate with people who may disagree with you?

Your first line to me was that my opinion "simply was not true." You disagreed with me first sir. You misunderstood me first. So I'll turn this back onto you: What is your motive in participating in this conversation, if you've already made up your mind? If there can be no other type of understanding, what is the point in returning to debate with people who may disagree with you?

Re-read our posts to see that you misunderstood what I was saying, not the other way around.

I am coming at this debate without emotion. I am not offended in the least. I am responding to your opinions with my opinions as they have been shaped by my experiences. I'm not sure why you believe I am having an emotional response to your words; perhaps this is what you wish to believe? As you had directed your post in response to one of my own posts, it would be logical to read your statements as if they were directed toward me.

Then why did you respond to my initial statement? I'm sure it was because you thought I called you a liar, which would imply you took offense, which would further imply that I hit a sore spot. You can say you "live without fear" all you want, as long as you know that such a statement is at best a lack of understanding of simple grammar and at worst, dishonesty.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I apologize for misunderstanding. When you said you "Live without fear" I was positive that you actually meant you live without fear. Maybe you don't live in fear or maybe you don't act in fear, but as you mentioned, you aren't actually without fear. I am only reading your words and making conclusions on them. I cannot magically understand the hidden meanings behind them.

I have explained my stance and personal semantics of the term "live without fear" several times and will no longer repeat myself.

Live is a verb, it cannot be used otherwise. Fear is a noun, which you've consistently mentioned you live without. Now that we both know that you do feel fear, we can also both conclude that you cannot live life without fear. It's there. It's real.

I have never said fear wasn't real. What I said is that I experience it differently and assign different value to it in my life.

Fear, in this conversation, is also a verb. I am using it as a verb as it applies to me, not a noun. It is a noun when we are discussing generalized fear, but a verb when we are discussing personal fear, the acting of feeling fearful.

People at large spend a lot of time Fearing life.

I do not fear (verb, used here as an action word) life. I live (verb, continuous action) without fear (verb, act of feeling fearful about life). Perhaps I should have said, "I live life without fearing it."? It's the same thing, from my perspective.

We are in agreement about choices not being influenced by fear. If they are, this shows a lack of emotional control...

Ok, that makes sense then. The one question I would have here is about your username, "LesMisanthrope". A Misanthrope is a hater of humanity. I believe hate is based in fear.

Do you, honestly, hate humanity, or are you using this pseudonym for another reason? Otherwise, you are choosing to represent yourself online with a name which implies hatefulness and arrogance from a person who is also human and, therefore, self-hating. I am curious as to how you perceive this paradox?

A few tips in case you actually consider doing so. If you wait until grizzlies hibernate to head into the woods, which is winter, and there are many feet of snow, I guarantee you'd wish you went at a different time. You'd be safer if you went when the bears were awake. If you worry about disrespecting the animals, you might as well never go into the woods as thousands upon thousands of species of animals call the woods their home (maybe not where you live). The best tracker who ever lived couldn't avoid every animal in a vast forest. No amount of planning the huge plethora of life cycles would help. Maybe it would be logically best for you never to go at all.

There are some wonderful inventions called snowshoes, tents, sleeping bags, cross-country skis, thermal underclothes, firestarters, and dehydrated food that are generally used during winter trekking. I'm not worried about wild animals. I respect them and their lives. I have never met a wild animal I didn't like. Small animals are no worry to me. Winter survival is no worry to me. Again, if I were to be killed, it would be my own fault for trekking into an area with potentially aggressive large animals, e.g. mating season for grizzlies.

Your first line to me was that my opinion "simply was not true." You disagreed with me first sir.

Your statement that anyone who says the words "I live without fear" is a liar is not true. A varied opinion from someone else is not a "lie".

I'm a ma'am, actually.

You misunderstood me first. So I'll turn this back onto you: What is your motive in participating in this conversation, if you've already made up your mind? If there can be no other type of understanding, what is the point in returning to debate with people who may disagree with you?

As I stated, I am trying to understand your perspective. This is why I am participating. I am learning from this conversation, and learning from your disagreement. I believe that there are many truths in humanity. You have yours, I have mine, but I still would like to understand your truth.

Then why did you respond to my initial statement? I'm sure it was because you thought I called you a liar, which would imply you took offense, which would further imply that I hit a sore spot. You can say you "live without fear" all you want, as long as you know that such a statement is at best a lack of understanding of simple grammar and at worst, dishonesty.

I already addressed the semantics you are caught up in.

I responded because I wanted to open a dialogue regarding this topic. So, I did.

We don't all think or feel or act the same way, so I brought this to light in a pleasant and relevant manner.

If I were "offended", I would have insulted your intelligence, called you names, avoided answering questions, focused on your words and not your intent to try to confuse the issue, etc, in "my" defense. I did not do that. I am learning from this conversation, it is actually very interesting to me how other people perceive emotion.

reply to post by watchitburn

"Mankind is caught in the cycle of fear, apathy and hatred. These human instincts drive hierarchical political systems and bureaucracies that most often limit the basic human right of the pursuit of happiness. A society whose foundation is fear, apathy and hatred sets up a system which fundamentally affects the happiness of the individual. it represses individual development and maintains a cyclical behavioral pattern of superiority and inferiority and a class society founded on untrue ideals." -Mark Zimmerman

i can understand your hate. i have been there before and sometimes i regress back. part of me would love to see the world burn because i have no love for people with huge egos who control and manipulate. i have no compassion for those who put power and profit above all things sacred, and who ignorantly destroy what keeps us alive. coming from a world full of fear, hate and anger, it becomes easier to hate than it is to love and after a while the power of hatred starts to even feel good. but i believe there is a reason for everything and that i must forgive them "...for they do not know".

and as much as i hate mechanization, monetization, civilization, urbanization, and all things unnatural, the love and appreciation i have for the simplicity, purity and beauty of nature is personally what keeps me balanced. when i am surrounded in nature i am at peace. only then can i think freely and feel love.

i believe it is unhealthy to live in nothing but fear. i believe it is unhealthy to live in nothing but love. i believe what one must strive to achieve is balance and to achieve it one must learn to understand and respect both. and until people learn to balance themselves, i believe we can not expect balance on earth.

hopefully you yourself have someone or something that keeps you from falling.

the ones who are hardest to love usually are the ones that need it the most.

peace & love

reply to post by ottobot

Do you, honestly, hate humanity, or are you using this pseudonym for another reason? Otherwise, you are choosing to represent yourself online with a name which implies hatefulness and arrogance from a person who is also human and, therefore, self-hating. I am curious as to how you perceive this paradox?

Le Misanthrope is a book by Moliére. Les Miserables is a book by Victor Hugo. Combine the two and you get my name.

I've had to explain this many times to many people. I actually don't mind the prejudice I receive from having this name. I enjoy knowing that when people confuse the name with the real person typing the words, they are merely trying their best to quantify me, but utterly failing in their attempts. People bring it up as an ad hominem attempt to make me look evil and thus wrong on every account. It turns out, that in the end, they are the ones who are wrong, and that they are merely in the habit of being prejudicial towards others. The only thing I hate are abstractions and the connotations and ill-feelings they bring; this name allows me to have fun with them.

Thanks for the great discussion. You've made some great points I will consider.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I've had to explain this many times to many people. I actually don't mind the prejudice I receive from having this name. I enjoy knowing that when people confuse the name with the real person typing the words, they are merely trying their best to quantify me, but utterly failing in their attempts. People bring it up as an ad hominem attempt to make me look evil and thus wrong on every account. It turns out, that in the end, they are the ones who are wrong, and that they are merely in the habit of being prejudicial towards others. The only thing I hate are abstractions and the connotations and ill-feelings they bring; this name allows me to have fun with them.

I wasn't trying to argue here, and did not mean it as an attack of any kind. As you can see, I continued on with my responses to you. I don't think misanthropes are "evil", I think they are afraid. I said as much.

I was honestly asking you about the name as a name; a question about how you chose to represent your online persona. Thank you for explaining this to me, much obliged.

I have read both books multiple times, and was actually going to ask you if you see yourself as plural or if your name is "Les" because you use the plural of "the". This explanation makes sense, though.

Thanks for the great discussion. You've made some great points I will consider.

Ditto, thank you for taking the time to converse with me!

Originally posted by watchitburn
reply to post by brianmg5

 

I have no love in me. I am hate and anger and rage. I hate about 99.999% of all humans I have ever met. But I know why I hate.

Because humans are stupid, ignorant(even worse they are willfully ignorant), greedy, self centered. I'll stop there.
Now, the majority of individual people, by themselves, are for the most part rational productive human beings. But get then into a group and all critical thinking skill are out the window. They become mindless mobs looking to be manipulated for someone else's gain.

I agree with your statements. The only place where you and I differ is that I'm tired at looking at my fellows and hating them. My hate for my fellows blocks off any chance of seeing the light within them. I'm ready to love them in spite of their mistakes.

With hate, it's as if I'm saying "I'll love you when you're worthy of my love," but the reality is that they'll never be worthy until I love them. And that's because people are already worthy. They have nothing more to prove to you. You either recognize their worthiness or you don't. In my experience, if you deny them your love, you deny yourself the same love, the same forgiveness. You can't judge someone one second and escape self judgement the next. This is why choosing to forgive and love is so liberating. You free everyone around you from their mistakes and so free yourself from your own.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by brianmg5
We are constantly choosing in any given moment to either love or be afraid. It's in every decision we make. I've spent years living in an Us vs Them mentality. Recently it occurred to me that I fear and hate about half of my fellow human beings. I asked myself why. I didn't come up with a clear answer but i did realize something...

I want to love you all. I know many of you have done things that in my opinion are unethical, insensitive, and directly opposed to my ideals. But my ideals don't leave any room for hate.

I know their are many reasons to justify my hate for you but I deny them all in the name of Forgiveness and Love. And by forgiveness I don't mean "you did something obnoxious but since I'm loving I'll tolerate it." What I mean is that I literally recognize that you've done no wrong. You are as perfect as you were when you were born.

Right and wrong are relative terms. One can't exist without the other. If you lived in a perfect world where "wrong" didn't exist, you would have no bearing as to what "right" even means. It would be a non-existent. Just as their is no "up" without "down." Therefore I conclude that making mistakes is a natural part of being a human being. We are perfect, mistakes and all.

Even if you were to convince me that human beings value is defined by their mistakes, I would still rather live in a world where I've forgiven my fellows. Where I look into your eyes and tell myself, "The god in me sees the god in you."

With these words you violate all that is human. You understand that there is right and wrong, up and down, yet you would throw away half of yourself simply because you don't like feeling bad things, such as hate, greed, lust, obsession...

I tell you that denying hate is an abomination to human nature, and this denial is a dangerous lie. Placing a lid on a pan of boiling water doesn't make the water vanish; the lid only serves to let the water boil harder until the pan explodes.

When we deny hate, it is still very much there. Festering, warping our minds, waiting for just the right moment to break free in a wild rampage that makes us reach for a razor blade to slit our wrists, or a gun to kill someone.

Hate is not a bad emotion. It's only what we do with it that is bad. Just as fear keeps us from jumping off a cliff, hate tells us when it's time to leave a nightmare relationship. Hate helps us discover that certain friends aren't really friends at all. Hate lets us know when a job or a boss is making our lives miserable, and it's time to find a new job. Hate tells us when our parents are abusing us. Hate tells us when we should stop atrocities from occurring throughout the world and within our own government.

If hate is not more important than love, then it is just as necessary.

Don't throw hate away. Don't deny it. Listen to what it's telling you.

edit on 8/3/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

I think you and I are in agreement for the most part. I should have clarified that I don't want to deny fear or hate. They are real emotions and like you said if they are pushed down, they'll explode some day. I think most of us have experienced this at some point.

What I'm choosing to do differently is instead of perceiving that my fellows are inherently "bad," because of the mistakes they've made, I'm choosing to love them in spite of said mistakes. I don't think their is anything wrong with recognizing that someone has made a bad choice. Does that bad choice define them as a human being? No it doesn't, they are perfect and I now choose to recognize that perfection. I choose to forgive the most brutal of crimes, however difficult it may be.

Just to clarify one thing, I'm not doing this perfectly by any means. This is simply a new ideal I'm aiming for and so far it's been interesting. One thing I've noticed - as I free others from their mistakes I'm also freeing myself from my mistakes. I'm free to be human, to try and fail, get back up and try again. If forgiving others is going to lesson my guilt so that I may move forward to do whatever work the universe see's fit, than I've found a valuable tool. Much better than wallowing in self pity and toiling in guilt.

Originally posted by Mcupobob
Wow wow, life is a lot harder and more complicated then "we should all just love each other man!" and then pat each other on the back for such a blanket statement. Don't get me wrong I wish it was that simply but the reason we do love some human beings or fear others is because they want to harm us, force us to do something we don't want to. For instance I fear and loath evil dictators, rapist and serial killers.

Theres just some problems in this world that can't be fixed with a hug man.

I apologize if I gave you the impression that I was suggesting life isn't hard or complicated and it can be simplified to a simple two sided decision, that was not my intention.

You can say "No" to someone and love them at the same time. You can love someone and stand your ground at the same time. Strength and Love are not incompatible. "Evil" people can be loved in spite of their evils.

If you insist that people are defined by their mistakes, big or small, than you will also define yourself by your mistakes, big or small. Like I said in my original post, right and wrong are relative and therefore they belong here, they're designed into the fabric of our existence. And because they're are meant to be here, they're perfect and I conclude therefore that we're perfect.

And your right, many problems can't be fixed with a hug and I'm not suggesting they can. But I am suggesting that some of your problems can be fixed with a hug. The more love you give the more love is pulled into yourself. Just look a stranger in the eyes and say in your head I love you. Do this more than once. You can't deny that it feels right.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

If you are so fearless, jump off a cliff, skydive without a parachute, set yourself on fire, walk into highway traffic etc. etc. etc. Emotions kickstart logic. When we fear death, we logically find ways to avoid it. This whole thread is people fearing fear. That is what you should be laughing at.

I disagree with that assessment entirely. This thread is mostly about choosing to love and forgive people. However, it does have overtones of how we react when faced with circumstances which cause us to be fearful.

Your example concerning physical danger and how humans react to said danger is an unfair example in the context of this thread. Your example concerns a fear which is embedded into the evolutionary history of our race and serves an important purpose...to keep us alive. What this thread is concerned with is fears such as economic, social, well being, etc. And in the face of those fears, we can choose to embrace said fear and take the fearless action in spite of the fear. A brave man is not one who feels no fear, it's simply a man who's willing to take the right actions in spite of said fear.

And so this thread is not about fearing fear at all. It's about embracing fear and practicing doing the right thing in spite of the fear we feel. It's about telling the universe to hit us with everything it's got because we know we can handle it.

The confusion stems from when a person says "I'm fearless" what they really mean to say is "I do not fear fear."

Originally posted by brianmg5

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by brianmg5
We are constantly choosing in any given moment to either love or be afraid. It's in every decision we make. I've spent years living in an Us vs Them mentality. Recently it occurred to me that I fear and hate about half of my fellow human beings. I asked myself why. I didn't come up with a clear answer but i did realize something...

I want to love you all. I know many of you have done things that in my opinion are unethical, insensitive, and directly opposed to my ideals. But my ideals don't leave any room for hate.

I know their are many reasons to justify my hate for you but I deny them all in the name of Forgiveness and Love. And by forgiveness I don't mean "you did something obnoxious but since I'm loving I'll tolerate it." What I mean is that I literally recognize that you've done no wrong. You are as perfect as you were when you were born.

Right and wrong are relative terms. One can't exist without the other. If you lived in a perfect world where "wrong" didn't exist, you would have no bearing as to what "right" even means. It would be a non-existent. Just as their is no "up" without "down." Therefore I conclude that making mistakes is a natural part of being a human being. We are perfect, mistakes and all.

Even if you were to convince me that human beings value is defined by their mistakes, I would still rather live in a world where I've forgiven my fellows. Where I look into your eyes and tell myself, "The god in me sees the god in you."

With these words you violate all that is human. You understand that there is right and wrong, up and down, yet you would throw away half of yourself simply because you don't like feeling bad things, such as hate, greed, lust, obsession...

I tell you that denying hate is an abomination to human nature, and this denial is a dangerous lie. Placing a lid on a pan of boiling water doesn't make the water vanish; the lid only serves to let the water boil harder until the pan explodes.

When we deny hate, it is still very much there. Festering, warping our minds, waiting for just the right moment to break free in a wild rampage that makes us reach for a razor blade to slit our wrists, or a gun to kill someone.

Hate is not a bad emotion. It's only what we do with it that is bad. Just as fear keeps us from jumping off a cliff, hate tells us when it's time to leave a nightmare relationship. Hate helps us discover that certain friends aren't really friends at all. Hate lets us know when a job or a boss is making our lives miserable, and it's time to find a new job. Hate tells us when our parents are abusing us. Hate tells us when we should stop atrocities from occurring throughout the world and within our own government.

If hate is not more important than love, then it is just as necessary.

Don't throw hate away. Don't deny it. Listen to what it's telling you.

edit on 8/3/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

I think you and I are in agreement for the most part. I should have clarified that I don't want to deny fear or hate. They are real emotions and like you said if they are pushed down, they'll explode some day. I think most of us have experienced this at some point.

What I'm choosing to do differently is instead of perceiving that my fellows are inherently "bad," because of the mistakes they've made, I'm choosing to love them in spite of said mistakes. I don't think their is anything wrong with recognizing that someone has made a bad choice. Does that bad choice define them as a human being? No it doesn't, they are perfect and I now choose to recognize that perfection. I choose to forgive the most brutal of crimes, however difficult it may be.

Just to clarify one thing, I'm not doing this perfectly by any means. This is simply a new ideal I'm aiming for and so far it's been interesting. One thing I've noticed - as I free others from their mistakes I'm also freeing myself from my mistakes. I'm free to be human, to try and fail, get back up and try again. If forgiving others is going to lesson my guilt so that I may move forward to do whatever work the universe see's fit, than I've found a valuable tool. Much better than wallowing in self pity and toiling in guilt.

edit on 5-8-2012 by brianmg5 because: grammer

Nice response.
Nice response.

reply to post by brianmg5


Love makes me fear. I fear everything as i wonder weather it will lead to me loseing the ones I love. I rememeber when i felt i had nothing to lose i felt free. then i found love and eveything that comes with it. It is a constant battle to keep everything ok. I fear for the ones i love.

Originally posted by kmeredith
reply to post by brianmg5

 

Love makes me fear. I fear everything as i wonder weather it will lead to me loseing the ones I love. I rememeber when i felt i had nothing to lose i felt free. then i found love and eveything that comes with it. It is a constant battle to keep everything ok. I fear for the ones i love.

I experience the same fear when it comes to my Wife and Pets. I suspect that it's our emotional investments/attachments to the things we love which causes this fear, not the love itself. You can love something and be willing to let it go at the same time.

I used the following example earlier in this thread but I think it fits well in this context so here it is again:

Your significant other comes home and tells you that they've met someone and fallen in love with them. They want to leave and want your blessing. If you truly are in love with this person, you would want nothing more for them to be happy, even if it's in another person's arms. If you were invested into the relationship as a sense of self you would have a hard time letting go. You would be afraid of being alone, you would be afraid that your sense of self is diminished without this persons love and affection. Love needs nothing and gives everything. It's empowering and liberating in every way.

As terrible as the new Star Wars movies were, I did appreciate the following advice from Yoda and it think it also fits well in the context of this post, losing those you love;

"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is. Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."