Canadian Forces make the cover of Jane's Defence Weekly

I'm glad to see that some Canadians have, at least, enough gumption to get irate when someone criticizes their country. Maybe they can come to understand why I get a little execised when others criticize mine.

We still have a topic to discuss, but with the current moderator, I doubt that this thread can be rehabilitated.

I think the issue that needs to be defined here is what is meant by "defending ones country" It is safe to say that there is not one nation with the ability or the desire to invade and occupy either Canada or the United States so the question of defense becomes more political.

The United States views defense as a pro active projection of its power throughout the world, and this strategy has led to debacles such as Vietnam. No slam against you Grady, I have the utmost respect for all those who fought but the reality is the U.S. lost the war and now Nike makes shoes there. Among other things, Vietnam was a public relations disaster for the U.S. and it appears Iraq is heading in the same direction.

Canada's military has been extensively used for peacekeeping, a role that the U.S. is unwilling and unable to undertake. This does not make us any less of an ally, in fact it makes us valuable as we are able to exert influence in areas of the world where the U.S. is not kindly recieved.

A true ally doesn't march in lock step, rather it tries to achieve similar means through different ends. We don't want our soldiers simply to be used as cannon fodder to appease an administration that barely notices us except to express its disdain.

That said, our military IS woefully underfunded and Parliament is attempting to rectify this, however even if we did fund it at levels the American administration found satisfactory, we would still refuse to be used as an extention of the U.S. armed forces. We ARE your best friend and will always be there for you, just not in the capacity that some administrations would like.

(BTW our snipers are the best in the world and were decorated by the U.S. for their efforts in Afghanistan. American snipers couldn't even come close to the kills our guys got)

God bless America, but she's not always right.

Just so people understand the differences in the political spectrum between Canada and the United States, here's a table of comparison.

New Democratic Party (left) = Ralph Nader, Green Party
Liberal Party (center-right) = Clinton Democrats, moderate Republicans
Conservative Party (right) = Bush Republicans

Otts, you oppressive beast! You forgot the Bloc, the most import of them all!

Also, there are the various incarnations of the reform party, adn we also have a green party.



DE

Funny thing is I don't think we have anything that could equate to the Libertarian party. We are SO used to having the gov't run everything, I don't think we could wrap ourselves around a concept like LESS government.

DeuxEx - You're quite right, we have a Green Party... as well as two Communist parties, if memory serves, and up until the last election we had the Natural Law Party, which wanted to solve social problems using yogic levitation

As for the Bloc Qu�b�cois, I'd fit them in with the New Democrats - they are social-democratic, even though I think their political stance (protecting Qu�bec's rights) is a lot more conspicuous than their social stance.

And Intrepid - I indeed don't think we have an equivalent for the Libertarian party. But the thing is - as I understand it - that American Libertarians want to go back to the spirit of the Founding Fathers, that is, a lot less government. Our own history didn't take our Fathers of Confederation in that direction - they just took the British system and adapted it to our situation; after all, in 1867, when Confederation came into being, we were still a British Dominion...

I'll agree 100% with you on one point Grady, its BS that the thread becomes about Canadians telling each other what they already know about their political parties. Absolutely not related to the topic at hand. Start your own thread or go in to chat fer chrissakes.

deevee - we Canadians have been drawn out in this thread on a number of issues, either health care, social programs or our military. We've been drawn out by American posters.

So American posters are allowed to go onto their own tangents but not Canadians?

Originally posted by HardCore American

Originally posted by intrepid
Do we have the poorest millitary in the world, NO. The most under-funded, YES. It is a disgrace to the people of Canada. But to spin it like WE were blaming the States for this is unconscionalbe.

This may be true but funding is part of the military. Thats like saying i would buy a bigger house but i haven't made enough money. Its not a good excuse.

In Australia we heard that those Canadian snipers didnt get their medals because the US quietly withdrew the offer when it came out the Snipers were being administratively punished for doing thier jobs too well. It offended some PC Canadian political groups to think they HAD snipers.

The yanks were first told the CF were handing out thier own gongs, and didnt want to up stage them, then the punishment story came out that the snipers were not "sufficently remorseful" in mandatory counselling sessions and the CF had been told to bury the issue.

We also heard a similar story in the 1990s that an Elite CF Regiment with a long proud history got disbanded for the sake of PC. It related to a Human Rights violation in early 1993. Instead of cutting out the bad wood the Canadian Government burnt the whole regiment to quench the thirst of some of the other political harpies.

I'd be happy for some of our Canadians to tell me this was all bogus.

It was used as a media outlets counterpoint to hearings in Australia where members of Aussie SASR were accused of executing two East Timor militia survivors captured after they unsuccessfully tried ambushing the SAS patrol in 1999.
Despite a village full of local East Timorese witnesses angrily denying the claim in support of the SASR the media and some politicians beat it up.
The hearing cleared the SASR but not before one of the accused, a decorated veteran officer, resigned in disgust. He only admited he kicked a dead ambusher in the boot just after the firefight, when he was still pumped up from narrowly being headshot in the opening burst, but the inquiry was launched on the word of two captured militiamen after they were released into Indonesian West Timor per a UN Agreement on prisoners.
BTW - the SAS was exonerated.

Sorry to be off topic, but I always wondered about the Canadian stories.

Yeah, we he a history of things that don't look well on our military- pinning, for instance. Certain actions in the Balkans didn't shien too well on us, neither certain actions in Somalia. There were a number of tribunals for various abuses.

A few years ago, a former JTF-2 (or a washout, I can't remember) robbed a bank and sodomized a guard with a shotgun. Most specops folk have a shelf life of 5-10 years, before the pressure breaks them. The training they undergo is basically meant to turn them into psychotic killing machines, so I can't say I'm surprised.

Funding was badly mauled by these sorts of incidents, which happen in other militaries as well (abu Grahib, etc). The problem is that the military has received so much bad press that only now are they recovering. Canadians don't like war.

DE

Thanks DE. Most Australians don't like war either, me included.

What follows is not a dig.

But sometimes avoiding a war is more a wishful cop out than something practical, and if you go to a war, you better be damned well prepared to do and use what you have to make sure its not your guys filling the most body bags....that or take up knitting.

In the case of the snipers, thier training allowed them to take out Taiban Mortar and machine gun crews, plus the officers directing them during Operation Anaconda (?). It saved the lives of many US troops.

As to the story of them taking pictures to record the event after, my neighbour had his from world war 2. It was a coping method, and if it wasnt for all those unauthorised personal snaps we wouldnt have a fraction of the images used to promote peace in the last 60 years.

As a ex Reservist myself, I have seen such images used as a training aid. It was more sobbering than anything else.

But we train these guys to kill yes, and we train them to look out for each other. We vote in and vote out governments who fund them, but the bottom line is we dont vote in governments to scrap them completely. Our voting is based on who gives us better job opportunities, welfare, health, roads and cable TV access or who saves the most trees.

We still expect there to be a trained force to defend us, but we don't vote on whether they are properly retrained or looked after when we've let them be sent off somewhere to a warzone. But we don't think about them as much as a holiday in Bali or Aspen.

And then we kick them in the pants when they do thier job, or vilify all of them when a handful go off the rails.

Gee, that wasnt meant to be a rant.

This post just revealed an incredibly serious problem with America:

WE GO TO WAR WAY TOO MUCH!!!

America is not culturally militaristic. But it is too politically militaristic. Which is why people like Grady insult Canada, because Canada is in no shape to support our militarism.

This is why I think America is in an identity crisis. We don't know what we want to be. We aren't a country of open conquest, yet a lot of our actions seem to be directed at that. Even those actions are hardly enough to even go on a conquest.

I apologize to all Canadians. Grady obviously has little respect for anything without the words United States of America in succession.

Sweat?....ready for it?......INCOMINGGGGGGGG!!!!

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
I apologize to all Canadians. Grady obviously has little respect for anything without the words United States of America in succession.

You need not apologize for me, because I simply took a post from a Canadian who tangentially trashed the alliance between the US and Canada and asked a valid quesiton backed up by some credible reference. Canadian took umbrage, perhaps overlooking the real intent of the post, but at least they had the courage to stand up for their country against a perceived insult. That's more than I can say about Americans who agree wholeheartedly to those who trash America.

The number of irate posts quashed any attempt o carry on a sober discours of the subject and teh moderator, made it clear that he would not endeavor to keep the thread on topic.

So, monica, you don't even have the backbone of the Canadians on this board, even though none even botheres to offer much in the way of an academic approach to the topic at hand.

Well Grady, you've stated time and again we know nothing about war. And you're right, generally Canadians don't. That's because we're peacekeepers.

How would you define 'academic'? What should we do, pepper you with statistics that prove little except to glorify the armed might of the USA?

Please, tell us what you expect of us.

DE

Grady is a 35,000 point troll. All he cares about is getting the points, and will post these types of useless threads just to get a rise out of you. I generally don't bother with grady's threads much anymore. It seems he just likes to cause trouble. Really, who else but an obnoxious troll could amass 35,000 points in 2 and a half months?

You can summarise any one of Grady's posts like this:

I hate Kerry.
Kerry is a traitor.
Bush is a war hero.
If you disagree with me you are a traitor.
Unless you have served in the US military you have no rights.
I am above you.
hate hate blah blah.
traitor, turncoat, scumbag.

Enjoy the little points my post has given you Grady.
Go out and buy yourself...a new text colour, or something.

(and to everyone else, dont feed the trolls)

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

The number of irate posts quashed any attempt o carry on a sober discours of the subject and teh moderator, made it clear that he would not endeavor to keep the thread on topic.

So, monica, you don't even have the backbone of the Canadians on this board, even though none even botheres to offer much in the way of an academic approach to the topic at hand.

You know, Mr. Philpott, perhaps if you eliminated insults and offensive twaddle from your posts that truly have nothing worthwhile to contribute the topic at hand, you might find that most members would be delighted to engage in a hearty academic discussion with you. If you're going to sling mud...expect to taste some yourself.

Originally posted by DeusEx
How would you define 'academic'? What should we do, pepper you with statistics that prove little except to glorify the armed might of the USA?

In this case, an academic discourse would have consisted in addressing the heart of the issue with some personal opinion, some links to back up one's opinion and accept some criticism of your nation with the alacrity that you dish out criticisms of mine.

There are terms to describe people and their actions and I use them in the sense that they apply to the situation. If you spout marxist ideology, I am likely to call you a marxist. If you express that nothing is worth fighting for and you think that you deserve the freedom paid for with the blood of your forebears, you are likely to be called a parasite or a coward.

This may be distateful to some, but it at least helps them to come to some acceptance of how their actions define them. PC has rendered people completely immune to any social repercussions for their postions and their needs to be a return to the time when we were more inclined to call a spade a spade. This also helps others who unfamiliar with the enemy language and tactics to understand how easy it is to be mislead.

That's where I stand. I am not here to make friends, but rather, to be a friend to the cause of liberty and truth.

[edit on 04/10/13 by GradyPhilpott]

OK as another canadian I have a right to chime in on the many diverse topics and issues raised Certainly when we hear you call us socialist we know for sure you don't know much about our politics history or our country.

Airborn Rgt disbanded on the issue of torture death of a Somalie youth. It was clear from the post event investigation, the problem was systemic within the unit at large. AS to the solution their might have been better choices but it was made and we took another look at the way we train troopers to deal with these situations.

Upholders . They were a fine bunch of subs when they were designed back in the 1980s. Clearly such subs in the hands of skill sailors can be deadly [witness the Norwegian subs simulated attacks on the RN fleet in that exercise]. But these subs sat unused for what 10 years, what kind of effect has that had on them? THe HMS UPHolder was completed in 1988-1990 period which makes it 15 years old of which ~ 10 years was spent in mothballs. I wonder what kind of effect that has on such a complicated piece of equippment.Their is a possibility that crew training could be a problem and that always needs to be monitored. But don't expect any courageous spending plan's from this government cause its a minority government.

RE Medicare. I'm not well off but I had 'carpal tunnel surgery' on both hands this year and didn't pay a cent for the surgery or the months off work. My son just had complicated surgery to remove wisdom teeth...of which I paid only 6% [$ 80.00] . On our family budget I would never have been able to afford these had they not been covered by MSA. My other son requires special schooling with specialist teachers. I don't pay a penny for this and they even buss him to the school cause its so far away and buy him glasses to see better in his class.

THe Universality of our health care was an important selling point. Its for all of us no matter how rich or poor. Start to make destinctions and you slide down a slippery slope. We believe that our people are entitled to this much and more. We don't want to make them pay for it if they can't aford it. In time the cost of health care will change this but there are other forces at work. Administrations of Hospitals is becoming a criminal cost over run in most health care budgets. Its obsene how much these people get payed. Their is price gouging at all product levels so improvements have to be made.The collaberation between drug companies and doctors has to be monitored etc etc.

If some want to go to the states for 'pay as you go' health care thats their bussiness, but we don't want it here.Oh and BTW I gather our cheap drugs are very much sought after in some AMerican states.

RE military. On the basics we don't see the world the same way you do cause we are not a super power and don't pretend to play that game. Most of us look at what your country is doing in places like Iraq and we just shake our heads in puzzlement. Many of us don't understand why you would want to do that? We just don't see the need for force of arms that were needed in the past.

In the past during WW-I /WW-II and the cold war it was seen as needed. ANd Canada was often their before America was. SO when we see a need we can arise to the occation. We just don't see that need any more. We don't see Cuba as a threat nor do we see China as a threat, and many of us don't agree with this war at all. However since we are from a commonwealth we have long recognised the need for collective defence, where its needed .

But since WW-II its become apparent that prevention is better than cure. SO while we pushed ahead in peacekeeping missions we maintained a standing force in GErmany through out the cold war. We are now badly over stretched in this area and there is need for more money to be spent . This is why we will only act through the UN cause its more important than any other organisation...and dare I suggest it , the UN is probably more important than USA is.

If you Americans want to take your marbles and go home suit your self. No one will attack us cause we are quite difficult country to over run [much too large]. SO we can take our chances in that department But I think you'll find we are becoming increasing economically intertwined and it may be more difficult and costly than you image. I heard that AMericas # 1 outside supplier of energy is Canada.

Besides if you go , you'll miss out on all our wonderful canadian treats like 'BC bud' , our 'great beer' , our 'famous musical stars' and our 'fantastic TV' , like " THis hour has 22 minutes" , "AIrfarce" and the "Trailer park Boys"

[edit on 13-10-2004 by psteel]