Canadian Forces make the cover of Jane's Defence Weekly

Originally posted by Otts
The reverse could also be said - that Americans saying our health and social system is socialist are presuming to tell us how to run our country. I haven't said that, and I won't. Everyone has a right to his or her opinion.

Your health system is socialist and just saying that is not a judgement. I have never spent two seconds worrying about Canada's healthcare system and I don't know of any Americans who do nor any reason why they should.

I can see how, see from America, our system would be seen as socialist. I guess we in Canada equate socialism with communism, and knowing how far from our reality that is, when some Americans say our system is "socialist", we see it as a judgment and a condemnation. If it's not your intent, then I can only rejoice.

It's a question of the different use of different expressions. In Canada, "liberal" is not seen as being on the left of the political spectrum - it's seen as center-right, something like a conservative Democrat of a moderate Republican.

In France, what they call socialism is closer to what Americans would see as a Roosevelt Democrat. In Sweden, they call it social democracy.

I guess I should ask you and Mirthful Me what your interpretation of the term "socialism" is.

Originally posted by Otts
I guess I should ask you and Mirthful Me what your interpretation of the term "socialism" is.

And you'll get an educated answer from one of these people.

I'm American, and I'm jealous of Canada's healthcare system! The United States is far from perfect, and see a lot of aspects from different countries where they do things better. Sometimes we do things better, but to ignore the differences is silly.

Originally posted by curme
I'm American, and I'm jealous of Canada's healthcare system!

Why don't you move to Canada? As a veteran, you have access to a very good healthcare system. I've used it for nearly twenty years and it has saved my life more than once and in more ways than one.

Please understand, I'm not judging the American health system. I've asked my Californian girlfriend how it works (because if ever I move to California, I'll have to understand that) and it seems you guys have a co-pay or insurance, which seems pretty good. On the other hand, I find that medication costs a lot more. And if Grady says that veterans have access to good health care, well good.

No system is perfect. And I would never pretend the Canadian system is. On the good side, I have my Ontario health card, which allows me to see my family doctor and get emergency care without any cost. However, it's true that emergency rooms are often quite full and it's harder nowadays to get a family doctor if you don't already have one or if you move to a new region.

Originally posted by Otts
In Canada, "liberal" is not seen as being on the left of the political spectrum - it's seen as center-right, something like a conservative Democrat of a moderate Republican.

This is what liberal is supposed to mean. Here the term has been taken over by marxists who prefer not to call themselves what they are.

I guess I should ask you and Mirthful Me what your interpretation of the term "socialism" is.

I really don't want to get into the very complicated area of defining social systems because it is hard enough to do from any one model and even harder when you look at more than one. These terms are slippery and everyone knows it.

It is just better to say that Canada has "socialized medicine." I know very little about Canada's social system, but I assume it is very much like our own, except that socialist values are more popular than they are here.


[edit on 04/10/10 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by curme
I'm American, and I'm jealous of Canada's healthcare system!

Why don't you move to Canada? As a veteran, you have access to a very good healthcare system.

I honestly can't believe that you would talk to a veteran in this manner. This person has given of him/herself for your country and you are treating this individual like what a Viet Nam vet got upon discharge in the 70's. How disgraceful.

Grady - Regarding your answer on social systems - fair enough. As I said, I can see how Americans would define it as socialist. Political definitions are not the same.

Originally posted by intrepid
I honestly can't believe that you would talk to a veteran in this manner.

You know intrepid, you are extraordinarly juvenile and your attacking me for this post is completely unwarranted. I asked curme why he doesn't move to Canada if the healthcare system is so important to him and then I told him of the my experience with the VA healthcare system, a socialized system.

You might remember, Mr. Smartypants, that I am a Vietnam veteran and I know a good deal more about this matter than you ever will.

Why don't you do your job and get this thread back on topic?


[edit on 04/10/10 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
You might remember, Mr. Smartypants, that I am a Vietnam veteran and I know a good deal more than you about this matter than you ever will.

Why don't you do your job and get this thread back on topic?

[edit on 04/10/10 by GradyPhilpott]

I will answer you WITHOUT insult, can you do that? You refered to me as juvenille. I assure you that I remember Viet Nam well, I am not a child. You have thrown "America, love it or leave it" at other Vets. You have made me embarassed to be a part of the millitary family. As to my job as Mod, I think I've done it well, have you recieved any warns for attacks to other members, including American Vets? NO, I've stayed out of that. Time for you to take another tack, or an appology. I'm thinking of your fellow vets.

Oh, now I get it. When you said I had stepped in it, you meant that you were going to abandon logic and just harass me to death.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by curme
I'm American, and I'm jealous of Canada's healthcare system!

Why don't you move to Canada? As a veteran, you have access to a very good health care system. I've used it for nearly twenty years and it has saved my life more than once and in more ways than one.

If you read the rest of my post, I meant that certain aspects of other countries are better than ours, and vice versa. As for veteran's health care, not every American is a veteran. I was speaking about Americans as a whole, not myself specifically.

Holy cow! A guy does a couple of loads of laundry and works out and we have the "Terrence and Philip War" all over again. Take a deep breath everyone... Please.

I'll refrain from quoting anything in the hopes of vagueness being mistaken for diplomacy. Otts, I'll answer you question because I've always found your posts to be finely crafted and to the point. My obvious disagreement with the Canadian Healthcare System is because I'm a member of it (or more accurately, the Canadian patients I see are trying to escape it). I am a healthcare professional and my company's headquarters is in Fargo, ND. We have clinics across the Highline and we do a considerable amount of business with Canadian citizens who come across the border to get medical services on demand (they pay cash up front, something that is illegal in Canada) because they don't want to wait (or medically they can't). Canada's Healthcare System is a Socialist model (the Government subsidies, and controls the entire system), and has it's positive and negative aspects. Socialist healthcare is great for well care, minor maladies, routine trauma...The basics. It is woefully inadequate when dealing with catastrophic illness (Cancer, AIDS, Cardiac Intervention, Organ Transplant), and extreme trauma cases. The system does not allow for any alternative to the Government System (even the U.K. is moving away from this and allowing private practice). I find this an affront to both the profession (why suppress and control the means to Life, the thing we value most?), and to the citizenry of Canada (they deserve better, not every Canadian can come to America and plunk down cash for medical services). Curme finds the system appealing, and it is possible to go through life without ever needing the advanced capabilities of the more capitalistic (but still somewhat socialized) American Healthcare System. My anecdotal response to this is within our own company, health insurance is optional (and dirt cheap by most standards, full coverage for what it costs for two people to have dinner at Bennigan's on a monthly basis), yet they choose not to take the insurance (but they have a 500-600 dollar car payment). Guess what happens? Something happens... And they get smacked with a hospital bill... I guess if you want to be protected from yourself, a socialist system can be the way to go... But give me a choice.

I realize that this may have raised as many questions as it answered, let the games begin.

South Park Monkeys, not just for Cartman's Mom anymore...

Originally posted by Otts
It's a question of the different use of different expressions. In Canada, "liberal" is not seen as being on the left of the political spectrum - it's seen as center-right, something like a conservative Democrat of a moderate Republican.

Thanks for pointing that out Otts. I was going to point that out as well. I sometimes see other Americans referring to Canada's gov't as being socialist because it's liberal. When infact that the term liberal is used in differnt ways around the world.

One can read about it here if interested. en.wikipedia.org...

In regards to the original topic. Well I don't really agree with what valkeryie said in the quoted post. And he doesn't speak for all Canadians. Do I think Canada could defend itself without the help of the US? Well it's hard to say really since Canada doesn't really get threatened by other countries in the same way the the US does, but I do agree that cooperation between both forces is good. But I also don't like it when the US gov't feels like it has to tell us what to do. An old example would be the Avro Arrow.

The US gov't at the time told the Canadian gov't that manned interceptors were becoming a thing of the past and that you could use missiles to intercept Russian bombers insted, so then the Canadian gov't trashes the Arrow program, (which was truely sad, because that killed a great aerospace industry that could be thriving today in Canada.) and buys the Bomarc missile which was a pile of garbage. Then we had to buy other aircraft to replace those, so all in all we end up spending more money than what we had if we just stuck with the Arrow. There are other similar examples like that too. I think that's what annoys some Canadians the most, when the US gov't sticks it's nose into our business. But again, don't get me wrong. I think cooperation is good between our countries. I just may disagree or outright dislike some things your gov't does.

I like the CF the way they are. I do think they need more funding for better equipment, but that's it really. We don't need a large military force.

Hi,

From what I have read most of the Sub bashing is by biased or uniformed media who have picked up on rumor.

The RN mothballed the Upholders because a UK government only gave them enough money to chose between the diesel submarines and some of thier nuclear boats. Up to that point the RN Admirals had mostly been vocal and strong supporters of shallow water diesel operations by thier old O and P class submarines, and the planned U class.

They were not curtailed and mothballed because anything was seriously wrong with them. They have been mothballed for a better part of a decade, and things would need to be fixed and replaced to suit Canada.

The vessels have had problems and yes this fire was a serious one. Friends in the Australian Subs ( I am not a sailor) would say there but for the grace of god go I. If your subs were as bad as people say, this one would be resting on the bottom. The crews would be refusing to man them. The Canadian Navy wouldnt be risking using them

Australia had an option to buy the Upholders and even order more. We went with building our first subs and chose a Kockums design we called the Collins. Some of the decisions about them were bad, and we have spent the first six years of thier thirty year lives correcting those problems, thanks to the current government willingness to trust the experts and payout to fix them, the efforts of the ASC shipyard people, and the professionalism of the RAN crews.

Despite the fact they are now excellent subs that kick the arse of the US Pacific Fleet Battlegroups on exercise, the general media, the opposition (who ordered them in 1988) and elements of the general public still lay crap on them. The crews I have met (and more importantly the escort crews they have "sunk" in the RAN) would beg to differ.

A couple of years ago after the problems were fixed, a hose feeding seawater came loose while a collins was dived. It wasnt serious but the Government ordered all boats to be tied up to check on the safe side. The media declared the sub involved almost sunk and they were all unsafe. Ask one RAN submariner and they wouldve said crap.

Another time a tug dented the sonar dome as a Collins was being delivered for drydock work and the sub got the blame by media.

They are now going to be operational 25-30 more years. ASC who built them have got the contract to maintain, upgrade and develop them, and her Kockums trained designers are drawing up her 2020 Sub Project replacements.

They are called teething troubles. When the Canadian sailors refuse to board on masse start worrying.

If Canada had bought any other sub they would have gone through this. The fire is a sad tragic abberation. If there is a flaw, they will find it and fix it.

Some of the sage info the "informed" media came out with.

The Upholders have engines meant for trains.

All diesel submarines have engines based on trains. The USN sponsored the conversion of the US rail system to diesel electric between WW1 to WW2 to ensure the development of the submarine diesel electric motor, and the capability to mass produce them in watertime. Evidence the WW2 Contruction progame of WW2.
Several Consortiums offer modern train and generator diesels based on submarine systems.

The Upholders had thier torpedo tubes welded shut because they leaked. They were welded shut because they were being mothballed and it was quite likely they might leak if out of service for years. Until they were refit that probably remained the case.

Arrgh!

How the hell did war get declared on the merits of the Canadian/US health systems in a discussion on the Canadian Upholders?

Oi Veh!

Disagreement is one thing. What I see here is contmept and that is another and this is not the only place that I see it. Thus, my developing conclusions. How sad that you represent such a lack of respect for a diversity of opionion and have to stoop to personal assault when others disagree with you.

I understand your position Philpot, I truly do. Diversity in your mind is when a non-American nods in agreement with you. Now if you see contempt in my posts, then imagine what I see in yours. I will not be engaged by you or anyone in here for that matter in hurling insults, that to me is the epitome of having no defense of your position.

You made a blanket statement, and asked a question and it was answered. Now understand me and understand me clearly; this Canadian is expressing the views of the majority which is, we do not wish to ramp up our military to suit the man in the White House whomever he may be, or you, or those who believe as you do. And while our Prime Minister may be bullied or bribed or be a neo-con and sign on to such a policy, the battles such as this debacle in Iraq is your creation and your problem, the supposed heightened terrorist threat was brought about by your leaders, not your citizenry, but your leaders, and the majority of Canadians want no part of your government's live in fear Orwellian state they are trying to create.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
My obvious disagreement with the Canadian Healthcare System is because I'm a member of it (or more accurately, the Canadian patients I see are trying to escape it). I am a healthcare professional and my company's headquarters is in Fargo, ND.We have clinics across the Highline and we do a considerable amount of business with Canadian citizens who come across the border to get medical services on demand (they pay cash up front, something that is illegal in Canada) because they don't want to wait (or medically they can't).

Yes there are Canadians who venture over to the US for health services for several reasons. But perhaps you can shed some light for us on what those services you personally know of entailed; why if those services were life threatening they were paid for out of pocket; and how many Canadians are you aware of sought those services. By the way, I know of no law that says it is illegal for a Canadian to seek health services out of country, so the games have begun indeed.

I think it is wonderful that Canadians can afford to attend in the US for health services and pay for them out of pocket, if you would be so kind to point to the specific Canadian law which you must be citing, it would be appreciated. I find it interesting that that you try and bolster your case against our health care system by speaking of Canadians obviously paying thousands of dollars per night for a bed, never mind the surgery, when you have some 50 million Americans without that "cheap insurance" you mention, especially given that those same Americans could not buy their way into an operating room for life saving surgery ahead of a paying Canadian unless they mortgage their souls, if they even have a mortgagable soul.

I often hear and read the tired argument that no American can be turned away, well that argument is dead in the water because if it was so, health care would not be heated debate in your country that it has been for as long as I can remember.

If Canada feels it has no obligation to arm itself to provide for its own defense, then so be it, but I am of the opinion that if Canadians despise the US, then we should allow you to go it on your own.

[edit on 04/10/10 by GradyPhilpott]

If I remember correctly, Mr. Philpott, it was your Canadian neighbors, who without hesitation, allowed safe passage into their country when dozens of flights were re-routed into Canadian airspace following the terrorist events of 9/11. The biggest defense budget in the Universe isn't going to save your sorry arse when you have no allies to lend a helping hand. Fortunately, the "peacekeeping" Canadians were there to ensure you didn't have to "go it on your own" while you were down.

[edit on 11-10-2004 by Wyzewun]

Or for that matter US trans Pacific heavies inbound for Australia and NZ hours after the event. While US authorities ordered everything down "NOW" that wasnt slung with the stars n bars & missiles, we took the risk of letting your people in.

I recall a United flight arrived Brisbane during the day while everyone was in shock about WTC, and it banked over the city on a low cloud day. The reverb of the engines shook windows and had some people racing for doors.

I beleive there were some Euro states who wanted them to turn back?

But back to Subs. Canada dont let this make you give up on Upholders. If only so your sub drivers can grin like ours and say "scratch one fat flattop!"