OT vs NT vs Homosexuality vs Common Sense...

reply to post by Cuervo

Yeah... but you to admit, you aren't exactly like the typical Christian

Because I read the bible, I know that there is a time when Christianity will no longer be Christianity, that it will be fractured.

That its members will follow false doctrines and flee the church in mass...

Tares in the Wheat who distort the doctrine to make people fall away from the church...

Kinda seems like the times we are in.

Biblical doctrine is CLEAR WIDE is the path to destruction, and narrow to safety...

Anyone with a MEGA church, or people that go to them, need to pause and reflect their general beliefs.

Anyone who hears his pastor Rally against the "gays" on a regular basis should question, what they are hearing.

Originally posted by Klassified

The bible is very clear in both Old and New testaments, that the Christian God finds Homosexuality an abomination. It is a perversion of his creation, and the order of things he established. No amount of wrangling with words and semantics is going to change that. Ever. It isn't up to Christians to decide whether it is OK or not. God has spoken, and that's that.

So we all have a choice. Either follow what the bible says, or don't.

I have no idea why you don't have more stars for this post.

reply to post by stupid girl

Because even though I am no longer a Christian, I was speaking in absolutes, from a fundamentalist Christian perspective. And that isn't very popular around here.

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Because even though I am no longer a Christian, I was speaking in absolutes, from a fundamentalist Christian perspective. And that isn't very popular around here.

doesn't make it any less true.

Originally posted by Klassified
As I've said before, you can't understand Christianity from a secular point of view. You have to understand it from a biblical point of view, and a Christian perspective.

To say marriage pre-dates Christianity or Judaism is a moot point to a Christian. Since from their perspective, their God created the heavens, the earth, and the people on the earth. And since Adam not only named "woman", for all intents and purposes, he also performed the first marriage ceremony. His own.
Gen 2:23

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

The bible is very clear in both Old and New testaments, that the Christian God finds Homosexuality an abomination. It is a perversion of his creation, and the order of things he established. No amount of wrangling with words and semantics is going to change that. Ever. It isn't up to Christians to decide whether it is OK or not. God has spoken, and that's that.

So we all have a choice. Either follow what the bible says, or don't.

You can't go by the Bible because it can not be trusted. It has been translated over and over again therefor its hard to say for sure that the words in the Bible are what the original Bible said and how many times words got incorrectly translated because they were not exactly sure on the meaning of the word so gave their best guess with the context of the passage or with there being more then one meaning for a word like to, two & too.

I also believe that some where along the lines things got added in or taken out of the Bible to suit the wants and needs of TPTB of the time. Causing a division amongst the people is a perfect way to keep them from working together to overthrow TPTB of the time.

If Homosexuality is a perversion of creation, then God can not be a perfect flawless God christians claim he is. It's a Paradox, God can not be perfect & imperfect.

I do not believe that God made Homosexuality to be a sin. Sexuality is basically the same difference in humans as Ethnic difference in humans, it doesn't really matter. When it all boils down to it we are all Humans and deserve the same rights and freedoms as every other Human being, so long as you don't intend harm yourself or anyone else.

Originally posted by benrl
I could list all the verses but heres a sampling from the NT.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Wait, I thought the actual term in this verse was catamites, not homosexuals. Catamites is another term for pedophiles, not a relationship with two consenting adults.

I haven't look at the other verses you listed yet, but I don't believe Jesus said anything directly about homosexuality, or the relationship of two consenting adult same genders.

reply to post by knoledgeispower

I don't "go by the bible". But those with whom this argument perpetuates itself over and over again endlessly do. To them, it is the word of God. End of argument. You can debate them until you are blue in the face. You can point out all the flaws ever found within its covers. You can dig up any artifacts, and/or show them all the history which contradicts their claims. You can slander them, persecute them, and murder them. And you will do little to scratch their faith.

I know, I was one of them for many years.

Originally posted by kaylaluv

Originally posted by benrl
I could list all the verses but heres a sampling from the NT.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Wait, I thought the actual term in this verse was catamites, not homosexuals. Catamites is another term for pedophiles, not a relationship with two consenting adults.

I haven't look at the other verses you listed yet, but I don't believe Jesus said anything directly about homosexuality, or the relationship of two consenting adult same genders.

You are on the right track. Actually, there are no modern translations for the Greek word they used in that context but the two options they had to go with were both long definitions (specific definitions like "those who sleep with boys in the corner of such and such town") so some translations just got lazy and went with "homosexual".

In fact, the King James version doesn't even use the word in that verse. It's actually:

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by kaylaluv

Originally posted by benrl
I could list all the verses but heres a sampling from the NT.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Wait, I thought the actual term in this verse was catamites, not homosexuals. Catamites is another term for pedophiles, not a relationship with two consenting adults.

I haven't look at the other verses you listed yet, but I don't believe Jesus said anything directly about homosexuality, or the relationship of two consenting adult same genders.

You are on the right track. Actually, there are no modern translations for the Greek word they used in that context but the two options they had to go with were both long definitions (specific definitions like "those who sleep with boys in the corner of such and such town") so some translations just got lazy and went with "homosexual".

In fact, the King James version doesn't even use the word in that verse. It's actually:

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"

Exactly what I was talking about. Translating something as old over and over again is hard work and sometimes there aren't modern translations for words used.

Klassified: religion has been corrupted and perverted for so long so of course it's going to get into its books like the bible.

I hope more people start to see the truth in spirituality not religion.

reply to post by Cuervo


I was always taught that marriage was about taxes; not about love.

Two people living together ought to share in taxes, and if they have a child, get help with caring for and raising the child.

Religion had nothing to do with it, unless the married couple wanted to bring their deity into the contract, which is seen as a personal choice, not a required one.

People seem to forget that Christian marriage and homosexual marriage are not the only kinds of marriage our country, or the world, have.

Civil unions exist in America, Canada and a variety of other places.

Planned or arranged marriages exist in India still.

In Africa many of the tribal groups had, or still have, about 8 different kinds of marriage depending on familial relations and if someone dies.

There's also polygamy which can be found in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and nearly every other major world religion (bet not many knew that the Mormons aren't the only polygamous Christians).

There are probably a lot more definitions of marriage as well which even I'm not aware of.

It should never have become a religious question, because marriage is not an exclusively religious ceremony.

~ Wandering Scribe

I find this users video about the topic very great.

reply to post by Cuervo


It's complicated and I won't go into it all, but nobody should quote Leviticus to you. The Mosaic laws in the OT were how the Jews regulatated their own society. The Bible started as a Jewish only religion. There were homosexuals in other societies. Gentiles didn't have to follow OT law.

They didn't go around killing all homosexuals. Well they weren't supposed to anyway. Only people that were part of their community. If you didn't like the laws you could be a Pagan. The Samaritans may be an example of this. Also, the Romans are an example of this. They didn't go around killing all the Roman gays. But if you were Jewish you had to follow the Jewish laws.

The OT is like a contract. Much of the OT doesn't apply to Christians. Even the 10 commandments don't really apply. Also it's important to note the OT contract does not get you into Heaven. The pay off for the contract was that the Jews would be given Israel. It was basically a land contract.

Nobody ever got saved by following the OT law. Follow it perfectly and you still don't go to Heaven. You only go to Heaven if you have faith in God, Gentile or Jew. People were already getting into Heaven just fine before the Mosiac law was given.

That's why it doesn't apply to Christians. I don't want to own nor live in Israel. So, why would I follow the 613 OT laws? I have no interest in a land contract. Strapping those laws on me would be a burden and a curse for land I'll never get.

The early Christian leaders agreed that Gentiles do not have to convert to Jews to become Christian. Why should they? They have no interest in owning Israel. God never changes nor does the law. Even today the OT law is still ONLY for the Jewish people and not the Gentiles.

To strap the OT law onto Christians now, the only way to do that, would be if you changed the law! But remember the context that Jesus is speaking in. He WAS Jewish and he was speaking to Jewish people that WERE under the law. The Gentile ministery didn't start until after his death.

However, in the NT Jesus gave us a new contract or Convenant. This one anyone could be a part of. Jew or Gentile. Jesus said that if we follow this Convenant and follow his Commandments we could have ever lasting life. Jew or Gentile. In fact Paul says that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Okay, so if there are no Jews, then why are people trying to get me to follow the Jewish ONLY law? There are no Jews!

However, the NT contract isn't a land contract. That contract actually is a way to everlasting life. Unfortuantly homosexuality is banned in the NT contract as well. Jesus said that sexual relations should be between a man and a women like Adam and Eve.

Our idea of marriage is differen too. Back then you sold your daugther to her husband basically and when they had sex, well that was marriage. There was no giant Government deciding who is married and who isn't. Women were property, men were the owners. You couldn't really have a homosexual marriage because you can't have the owner/property relationship in a homosexual relationship.

But Jesus said marriage should be like Adam and Eve. One man and one women and nobody marries them. It's just whoever you have sex with, that's your mate for life and you're married. Jesus said the only reason we have marriages and divorces like we do is because of the hardness of our hearts and that's not the way it's really supposed to be.

But Jesus even says it's better to not have sex at all. That if you can manage it you should be celibate. Only if you can't be celibate should you then marry a women.

I would just like to speak to the issue of whether or not the old testament should be obeyed by Christians. The question itself is misconceived because some parts are still relevant to those who are 'in Christ' and others are not. Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism and many of Judaism's practices, symnbols, laws, and so forth have become null and void. The Torah served it's purpose up until next step in God's salvific plan was inaugurated. There is a distinct newness to Christianity but also a continuity with it's Jewish roots. The details of this and it's implications are well beyond the scope of my short response here.

Originally posted by arpgme
If god is truth? Why do so many not seek it? Why are so many choosing to toss away reality to believe in LIES, and I am not talking about faith here...

umm probably because it's their choice??

I don't like the idea of gay marriage. That's why I don't intend to have one. But if others in same sex relationships want to get married, it's fine by me.

See how easy tolerance and understanding is? Problem solved.

Originally posted by BagBing
I don't like the idea of gay marriage. That's why I don't intend to have one. But if others in same sex relationships want to get married, it's fine by me.

See how easy tolerance and understanding is? Problem solved.

Wait a minute now... so you're saying that what other people do does not influence your life? What a concept! It's amazing how many don't get that.

It reminds me of a story I just read to my daughter about a little girl with a bunny. She loved it sooo much but when she got to school, another girl had a bunny just like hers. Suddenly she didn't feel like her bunny was so special. This is what opponents to marriage equality remind me of.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by BagBing
I don't like the idea of gay marriage. That's why I don't intend to have one. But if others in same sex relationships want to get married, it's fine by me.

See how easy tolerance and understanding is? Problem solved.

Wait a minute now... so you're saying that what other people do does not influence your life? What a concept! It's amazing how many don't get that.

It reminds me of a story I just read to my daughter about a little girl with a bunny. She loved it sooo much but when she got to school, another girl had a bunny just like hers. Suddenly she didn't feel like her bunny was so special. This is what opponents to marriage equality remind me of.

erm... you entirely missed the point. Enjoy your bunny wunny.

You forgot a reason which has nothing to do with Leviticus. Romans 1 deals with the wrath of God against mankind. According to Romans 1, homosexuality is EVIDENCE of reprobation and judgement. Because of sins, God gives them up to perverse affections. Again, its a judgement.. Although it is a sin, it is different from other sins in the fact that it is God turning away from a people. Homosexuality is a sign that the Lords wrath and punishment is coming to a population, soon. In this regards, watchful Christians know exactly what is coming based on the advancement of the homosexual agenda in our society. This judgment is simple:  they are given over to their passions.  That means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins (Romans 1:24).  As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing, and then they go and promote it and condemn others who don't participate in their sin.

Ancient Greece and Romes armies were homosexual. Destroyed. Ancient Pompeii was utterly sexually corrupt. Destroyed. Sodom was as well. Destroyed. The planners of the Russian revolution encouraged homosexuality before their takeover. The Nazi party were notorious sodomites.And where do the western lands stand now? The fascist stance that you MUST accept sodomy as normal, Chridtian churches MUST marry homosexuals. But the people refuse to learn from history and/or do not seek out hidden history, or as God states, "they die from lack of knowledge". We are in judgement. Do you really think that a faithful Christian will therefore accept such an abomination as just ' a valid alternate lifestyle'?

Originally posted by knoledgeispower

Originally posted by Klassified
As I've said before, you can't understand Christianity from a secular point of view. You have to understand it from a biblical point of view, and a Christian perspective.

To say marriage pre-dates Christianity or Judaism is a moot point to a Christian. Since from their perspective, their God created the heavens, the earth, and the people on the earth. And since Adam not only named "woman", for all intents and purposes, he also performed the first marriage ceremony. His own.
Gen 2:23

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

The bible is very clear in both Old and New testaments, that the Christian God finds Homosexuality an abomination. It is a perversion of his creation, and the order of things he established. No amount of wrangling with words and semantics is going to change that. Ever. It isn't up to Christians to decide whether it is OK or not. God has spoken, and that's that.

So we all have a choice. Either follow what the bible says, or don't.

You can't go by the Bible because it can not be trusted. It has been translated over and over again therefor its hard to say for sure that the words in the Bible are what the original Bible said and how many times words got incorrectly translated because they were not exactly sure on the meaning of the word so gave their best guess with the context of the passage or with there being more then one meaning for a word like to, two & too.

I also believe that some where along the lines things got added in or taken out of the Bible to suit the wants and needs of TPTB of the time. Causing a division amongst the people is a perfect way to keep them from working together to overthrow TPTB of the time.

If Homosexuality is a perversion of creation, then God can not be a perfect flawless God christians claim he is. It's a Paradox, God can not be perfect & imperfect.

I do not believe that God made Homosexuality to be a sin. Sexuality is basically the same difference in humans as Ethnic difference in humans, it doesn't really matter. When it all boils down to it we are all Humans and deserve the same rights and freedoms as every other Human being, so long as you don't intend harm yourself or anyone else.

edit on 27-7-2012 by knoledgeispower because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-7-2012 by knoledgeispower because: (no reason given)

But I would ask... Where do your viewpoints come from? Seventy years ago most believed it to be an abomination as scriptures states. What has been introduced in that time period? Mass media. Hitler had his Ministry of Propaganda and Indoctrination which used film, radio, newspapers and youth groups to indoctrinate his citizens with his ideals and beliefs. Do you believe that he was a demented mad man? What could the same mad man accomplish in today's world through tv, cinema and Internet? How easy was it for them to sway opinion on this subject? Very easy. The charming 'gay guy' the funny 'gay guy' the loveable 'gay guy'. Free porn indoctrinating its viewers into sodomy, group sex and lesbianism. Create the lust and fan it. It's all they needed to do and a population giving up the Bible was primed for it. This is how it ends... Israel so caught off guard by sexual immorality and the love of sin that they choose the beast over God Himself - again. People now believe like you do...thinking that the anus, designed for excrement. was somehow designed by their Creator as a sexual organ. This is what lust does - one loses all sense of thinking. One conforms to the beast. It's a debasement of morality, but yet without the Truth of God Himself, we just descend into wickedness. See, Satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning. He knows how we think and act, and he knows exactly how to sift us. Through the love of sin. Through fear. Through doubt. He needs you to believe that Christians hate homosexuals, when in reality, he is hiding God's impending wrath from you. The majority of the world will not see it coming, just as in the days of Noah when the floodwaters came.

I've never been able to fully understand the diverse explanations for the OT and NT, especially since the god of the OT is supposed to be the god of the NT, yet if one accepts that, one is still left with questions...especially about god's nature.........how does one reconciliate the wrath, slaughter and barbarity of the god of the OT with a rather different dipiction of god in the NT?