OT vs NT vs Homosexuality vs Common Sense...

reply to post by Arles Morningside


They do seem like different Gods, but I think that our modern idea of Jesus could be the problem. Gotta remember the temple and the money changes and the turning over tables.

The OT God wasn't always "mean" either. He would pour out some wrath, then come back and reconcile with his people and pour out blessings over them. The only reason it seems Jesus doesn't fit this pattern is because he never returned. At least not yet. But he said when he comes back he isn't going to be so nice.

Jesus said when he comes back he's coming with a sword and he'd destroy the whole world with fire. I think the major theme is not being nice or mean, but being justified in his wrath, or so the story goes. Jesus really wasn't the super nice hippy that everyone makes him out to be today in my opinion.

Originally posted by BagBing

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by BagBing
I don't like the idea of gay marriage. That's why I don't intend to have one. But if others in same sex relationships want to get married, it's fine by me.

See how easy tolerance and understanding is? Problem solved.

Wait a minute now... so you're saying that what other people do does not influence your life? What a concept! It's amazing how many don't get that.

It reminds me of a story I just read to my daughter about a little girl with a bunny. She loved it sooo much but when she got to school, another girl had a bunny just like hers. Suddenly she didn't feel like her bunny was so special. This is what opponents to marriage equality remind me of.

erm... you entirely missed the point. Enjoy your bunny wunny.

I didn't miss the point. I was complimenting you on "getting" it. I was agreeing with you.

reply to post by Cuervo


I think that if homosexuals wish to suffer in marriage as straight people must...

then the Catholic church should just let them be XD

lol but on a more serious note, i work with a good few gay guys and they're astoundingly hilarious. Not overbearing and no boundary crossing involved. I get called "stud" a whole lot and its actually quite flattering. I believe that having gay friends is must for ANY person and they should absolutely be allowed to marry.

My grandmother agrees with this standpoint after years of ignorance toward this matter. She has gay neighbors, and she said they are the happiest MARRIED couple she had ever seen in her life and they changed her view completely. They now have drinks together on the regular and are invited over by my grandpa for steaks once and a while. These are two DEVOUT CHRISTIANS(grandparents) and they are in love their new friends.

As a closing argument, and someone may be able to back it up by finding the excerpt(even though im sure everyone has heard this one about a thousand times)......

Man, was created in His image.

Support Gay Marriage,
Mike

reply to post by tinfoilman


the different "god" thing is not their problem. I know a lot of gay Christians. The just either convert or cannot come out for fear of being ridiculed, exploited, and banned from returning.

Not cool, don't speak for someone whom is scared of ridicule for believing what they wish, and being what they are. One may contradict the other, but it is only because the one is so disgustingly ignorant.

ignorant from my point of view at least,
Mike

Originally posted by PsyMike91
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

the different "god" thing is not their problem. I know a lot of gay Christians. The just either convert or cannot come out for fear of being ridiculed, exploited, and banned from returning.

Not cool, don't speak for someone whom is scared of ridicule for believing what they wish, and being what they are. One may contradict the other, but it is only because the one is so disgustingly ignorant.

ignorant from my point of view at least,
Mike

I'm sorry I don't see any place where I was speaking for homosexuals? Can you point me to what you're referring to? I don't understand how your reply relates to mine.

reply to post by tinfoilman


I still can't see how they are the same, the OT god advocates blood sacrifice of animals ( the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter is interesting, Judges 11:29-40), Moses didn't seem to shy away from god's military aspect for he sings of it in Exedus 15:3 and there are countless verses throughout the OT of not only slaughter by the Israelites but also by god such as the slaughter of the first born of Egypt, the ot god also plays head games like is seen in Job and when god tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in Gen. 22:2 (which does have a happy ending), then you have the capital punishment in the law, and the list goes on.

I find the OT god radically different in some regards, and not in others such as Jesus as a human blood sacrifice (if one accepts Jesus as the incarnation of god and such). Jesus dosn't advocate the slaughter of his enemies nor eye for an eye justice, he didn't play head games with his followers, he had a special fondness for children and he also demonstrated a respect for women, and the list goes on.

The differences between the OT and NT have long been looked into, it's not a modern phenomena. I myself have a respect for the Bible and see the wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding that is found therein as I would any Holy Book, but for me, it is clear there are differences and it seems only fair to aknowledge them.

I do agree with you though in that seeing Jesus as a hippy is probably incorrect. I'm curious, do you think it is possible that when the nt says Jesus will return with the sword, do you think that the sword represents 'the Word' and that he will overcome with that? and that the fire represents the 'Spirit'?

Originally posted by Arles Morningside
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

I do agree with you though in that seeing Jesus as a hippy is probably incorrect. I'm curious, do you think it is possible that when the nt says Jesus will return with the sword, do you think that the sword represents 'the Word' and that he will overcome with that? and that the fire represents the 'Spirit'?

I sure hope hope that's what it means.

A quick read of the book of Hebrews will explain the difference between the OT and NT. In regards to homosexuality it is clear to me that God is against this practice in both the Old and New Testament. If people really think that homosexuality is natural then in my opinion they have a serious problem. If men want to marry men and women want to marry women that's their business. But I don't think it is something we should put into law as being ok, it sends the wrong message to our children. I don't hate Homosexuals, I have family members who are such, but I would never attend their wedding if it was legal because doing so would say I approve of their lifestyle.

I fear the day when gay marriage is approved in the U.S, and it will happen. Once it does, American will fall just like S&G. Such passage of law would be a slap in the face to God, and we know He doesn't take these type of things lightly.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

MC:Can you conceive a child in your kiester?
You:No.
MC:..........
You:.........


These arguments will never, and have never gotten anyone anywhere.
Just sayin.

I don't wanna come off as a bigot, that was just the most poignant example i could think of.

I personally have been aroused by another man. I think life is about learning about yourself, and ultimatly about learning to control your emotions, and self mastery.

Free agency all the way, just don't hurt or use anyone along the way.

Originally posted by benrl

no fuss no muss, no divisive BS we get seen thrown about by all sides of the argument.

No fuss no muss? Really?

Homosexuals are born - - as God made them. So you are actually condemning your God's creation.

As seizures were once believed to be - - being possessed by the Devil - - until we lifted ourselves out of the ancient darkness of ignorance.

And for those who want to argue gender attraction is not known - - check out fruit flies and brain chemicals.

Also - - science does not know what causes Left-handedness - - but we do know it is not a learned "behavior".

Originally posted by Annee

Homosexuals are born - - as God made them. So you are actually condemning your God's creation.

If you are saying that some people are born Homo then you know that's a lie. People chose to be gay of their own accord. Just because they think they are a girl trapped in a mans body does not mean they where born that way. God does not create homosexuals, people do that to them selves.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by benrl

no fuss no muss, no divisive BS we get seen thrown about by all sides of the argument.

No fuss no muss? Really?

Homosexuals are born - - as God made them. So you are actually condemning your God's creation.

As seizures were once believed to be - - being possessed by the Devil - - until we lifted ourselves out of the ancient darkness of ignorance.

And for those who want to argue gender attraction is not known - - check out fruit flies and brain chemicals.

Also - - science does not know what causes Left-handedness - - but we do know it is not a learned "behavior".

Did you read any of my post in this thread? or are you just wanting to spout off anti-thesis rhetoric?

Go ahead and go back and look at what I said.

Where I said according to the OT and NT, Homosexuals are sinning in the same manor as someone who is say an adulterer or someone who had sex before marriage.

Or the same sin as say me getting mad at someone...

all sin is the same level according to Christian theology.

And there should be a separation of Church and state, as in the STATE has no right to tell you who you can and can't marry?

Probably not worth bringing all that up though as you just wanted to knee jerk response to a theist...

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker
People chose to be gay of their own accord.

WRONG.

Originally posted by benrl

Probably not worth bringing all that up though as you just wanted to knee jerk response to a theist...

Did you or not say - - after all that - - you still believe homosexuality to be a sin?

I have never witnessed a Pastor rally against the LBGTP, Christian has mentioned al-Qaeda but never anything about LBGTP marriage during Sundae() service. Honestly, I don't have a problem with them, shucks, even one of my cats is homosexual, I give him the same love as the others. Actually, my straight kitties have trouble with the litter box(They miss), but the gay kitties area, very tidy. I think the animals might have been born that way, must be in the dna...

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by benrl

Probably not worth bringing all that up though as you just wanted to knee jerk response to a theist...

Did you or not say - - after all that - - you still believe homosexuality to be a sin?

Again, if we are talking Christian Theology than yes.

But keeping in mind even looking at a women or man with Lust is the same type of sin.

Just like say gluttony is, or greed, or any number of examples I could give.

If we want to go into OT I could add the dietary laws, but again Christian theology is different than Jewish Theology.

So if we are talking theologically according to Christianity than yes, but again you wouldn't know that because your trolling and not reading my previous post in this thread.

Originally posted by benrl

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by benrl

Probably not worth bringing all that up though as you just wanted to knee jerk response to a theist...

Did you or not say - - after all that - - you still believe homosexuality to be a sin?

Again, if we are talking Christian Theology than yes.

But keeping in mind even looking at a women or man with Lust is the same type of sin.

How is that the same type of sin? That is an action.

Are you a sin - - just because you were born with opposite gender attraction?

Originally posted by benrl
I could list all the verses but heres a sampling from the NT.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:19
Ephesians 5:3-7
1 Timothy 1:10
Jude 1:4

Now heres the part MOST christians miss...

It lists Homosexuals, with Fornicators (sex before marriage), Adulterers (cheaters), Crooks, Drunks...

And many other sins...

the WAGES OF ALL SIN is death, not just being "Gay"

Looking at my fellow man with Hate in my eye is according to Jesus the same as MURDER.

ALL sin is bad, And all sin can be forgiven.

You just get Fundamentalist banging this one drum making all of Christianity look like hate mongers.

You didn't wait till marriage to have sex? guess what the bible says your as bad as a Homosexual, Look in the sin in your eye before you remove the one from your brothers.

edit on 27-7-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)

Let me clarify THIS STATEMENT:

unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God

In other words, the kingdom of God is not "heaven", as many would believe. The "kingdom of God" is God's rules. So, what is being said is that fornicators, adulterers and homosexuals will not ACCEPT God's laws.
Romans 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of RIGHTEOUSNESS, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

The reason why homosexuality is a little bit different than all the others, is because of this:
Genesis 5:2

He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man."

and this:
Genesis 9:7

As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

THOSE ARE NOT REQUESTS BUT RATHER COMMANDS! God's 1st laws!
Here's some more insightful bits of WISDOM.

"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is DETESTABLE. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. -(Lev 20:13)

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in THEMSELVES THE DUE PENALTY FOR THEIR PERVERSION." -(Rom 1:27)

Now, understand this....you don't HAVE TO BELIEVE in God's word....but, that won't change God's principles of seed time and harvest! God doesn't "punish" us! Our disobedience brings that punishment. God said, "don't touch the stove, because it's hot."...but, kids will be kids!

Originally posted by benrl
Where I said according to the OT and NT, Homosexuals are sinning in the same manor as someone who is say an adulterer or someone who had sex before marriage.
Or the same sin as say me getting mad at someone...
all sin is the same level according to Christian theology.

This is not completely true. Yes sin is the transgression of the law, but the type of sin can carry different penalties. E.g. Death. God clearly records which sins are subject to death. People today balk at this, yet they are subject to 1000x the number of laws that He ever gave!

Wrath has and is here.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them" Romans 1:18-19

His Wrath has been pouring out every century of our existence. God gives them over to shameful lusts and shameful desires of their hearts. Amongst other things, one of those is degrading their bodies with members of the same sex. As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing, and then they go and promote it and condemn others who don't participate in their sin. This is a reprobate mind - someone already given up by God. They are given over to the lust, and therefore "will receive in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." What are most heterosexuals (non Christian and Christian) noticing now? Legislative and constant homosexual indoctrination, that you MUST tell your kids that it is an ACCEPTABLE lifestyle, that there MUST be homosexual marriage, that you MUST not say it is sin. Their hearts are so hardened that they have to go and not only promote it, but will condemn anyone who dares oppose it. The venom is strong as the government and leadership, constantly rumoured themselves or caught in acts, force it upon the masses. It is quickly becoming appear aren't that parents will have no say in teaching their children to obey God. Those under His Wrath will persecute people, and thus, in the end, receive the just punishment for their perversion. If you could truly come to understand that it is these reprobate minds who are in power, you perhaps can see how God is letting them build up their own case for fair and just judgement - His. He will show them where their own lusts led them.

reply to post by Annee

How is that the same type of sin? That is an action. Are you a sin - - just because you were born with opposite gender attraction?

So basically you don't care about the OP or the theological questioned it posed, you simply want to shoe horn your agenda into it?

Op asked a theological question, gave a theological answer.

If its morally or ethically right according to your world view was not the question, it was about theology.