Gay Marriage. I am honestly confused

Originally posted by Davo163
For the record, I'm gay and I have absolutely no interest in marriage (from a religious point of view), but I would like to have the same legal rights as straight couples.

Marriage is a widely recognised LEGAL relationship (in Australian law, marriage is a civil institution, not a religious one) whereas the rights given to de facto relationships are different between the Australian states and between Australia and other countries.

In other words, gay people aren't calling for marriage equality so that they can 'erode the foundation of religion' or start packing out your churches, corrupting your sermons and the like. We just want the same legal rights as everybody else.

Yes they are. On all claims.

You are doing it to spite heterosexual people. You are doing it to spite Christians. You are doing it to spite the family unit. You are doing it to turn our society into one where gender roles mean nothing.

It is actually scary if I'm entirely honest, to think that I could bring a child onto this earth and he will not know his place because he is treated like a woman.

Originally posted by billy197300
reply to post by quietlearner

 

I can understand were the religious people are coming from being antigay if their religion says it's wrong. But, if not for religious reasons why on earth would someone even care if someone else is gay or not? I don't really get it.

There are many other things that the bible forbids but christians like to pick and choose, essentially tailoring their own religion. All that love your neighbour stuff? Alot of them choose not to follow that and instead option to do silly things, such as oppose gay marriage. I think you get more brownie points for it or something

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by billy197300
reply to post by quietlearner

 

I can understand were the religious people are coming from being antigay if their religion says it's wrong. But, if not for religious reasons why on earth would someone even care if someone else is gay or not? I don't really get it.

There are many other things that the bible forbids but christians like to pick and choose, essentially tailoring their own religion. All that love your neighbour stuff? Alot of them choose not to follow that and instead option to do silly things, such as oppose gay marriage. I think you get more brownie points for it or something

Its funny because you can get away with insulting christians, but you cry to your little gay friends and claim "homophobia" if you get abused back

You're just another hypocritical minority.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

But marriage has never been a state contract, it has always been a religious contract that the state recognises for legal purposes under freedom of religion because it is also a contractual agreement.

If two people do not believe in God, why marry? Why not just draw up a legal contract recognisable by the state which defines the terms?

You do realize there is a thing about separation of church and state. As in the Govt. is not a part of the church, and the church (remember your's isn't the only one...) is not a part of the government.

You know it's legal to use a condom right... The church may say no, but it doesn't matter legally.

It should be the same with the heathen homosexuals.

Pretend for a second you were in the minority. I would be defending your beliefs even if I find them idiotic. This is not a country for a certain religion, it's a country where religion should not come in to play.

Originally posted by AnarchysAngel
reply to post by quietlearner

 

What is it then? Why do these people feel it's right to oppose two very important ideas that our nation was founded on? Are they fascist neo-nazi supporters or something? If that's the case then I have a good idea of where they need to go....

I can come up whit many examples of why a nonreligious person would be against gay marriage
one of the is as you said fascist neo-nazi supporters
another is a mother worried about what kind of influence her kid will grow up with
another is a conservative family head worried about the institution of family
another is an anthropologists worried about the social ramifications
etc etc etc

I mean its not hard to imagine a situation where a nonreligious person would oppose gay marriage
it doesn't matter if their worries are correct or not, they are still existing.

reply to post by Tramadolnights


What just like you do to the mods

Your the hypocrite

Originally posted by Tramadolnights
You are doing it to spite heterosexual people.

Victim card.

You are doing it to spite Christians.

Victim card.

You are doing it to spite the family unit.

Victim card.

You are doing it to turn our society into one where gender roles mean nothing.

Victim card.

It is actually scary if I'm entirely honest, to think that I could bring a child onto this earth and he will not know his place because he is treated like a woman.

Sexist victim card.

I have some advice for people of your way of thinking - Step into the light, its okay, modern thinking isnt going to hurt you.

Originally posted by Tramadolnights

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by billy197300
reply to post by quietlearner

 

I can understand were the religious people are coming from being antigay if their religion says it's wrong. But, if not for religious reasons why on earth would someone even care if someone else is gay or not? I don't really get it.

There are many other things that the bible forbids but christians like to pick and choose, essentially tailoring their own religion. All that love your neighbour stuff? Alot of them choose not to follow that and instead option to do silly things, such as oppose gay marriage. I think you get more brownie points for it or something

Its funny because you can get away with insulting christians, but you cry to your little gay friends and claim "homophobia" if you get abused back

You're just another hypocritical minority.

How ignorant of you to assume that all my gay friends are little. I'll have you know we are all of average height, but you'll soon realise this when we are in our camp but stylish military uniforms holding signs that promote banning medieval thinking.

reply to post by Tramadolnights


Don't take them seriously.

They will get what they deserve sooner or later.

This is where the religious ship has came in west and the blame is not on you.

Let them play. But don't give up your faith.

People like you let me hope that there is still hope in America.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
But marriage to me is a religious thing.... so devoid of a religion which condones it, I do not understand marriage in general.

I see. You don't understand why a person would want to marry if it's not a religious thing to them...I can understand that.

My marriage (we just celebrated 20 years!) was for more than the tax breaks and other state and federal benefits of marriage. It's a public recognition of the commitment we have to each other. We got married as a way to share our intentions to support each other and stay together for the rest of our lives. The fact that we are legally married and made those public commitments to each other, has actually saved our relationship once or twice over the years. Those vows mean a lot to both of us. It's an expression of love and promise to another person. Could we have made them without marriage? Sure. And some people do. But we have the choice - it's our right to choose - and it should be for gay couples, too. Equal treatment under the law (state law, not religious law)

Each couple defines their own marriage. And there are many reasons people get married. Do I understand them all? Of course not! Brittney Spears and Kevin Federline? Come on... Do you understand their marriage? I don't. But fortunately, the only marriage I have to worry about is mine.

reply to post by Domo1


I agree, there is separation of church and state in this country. So why is marriage a state institution? Why is marriage recognised by the state?

It is recognised due to religious freedom, protected due to religious freedom. Jewish people have rabbanical courts in which the state recognises, christians because they were the founders of this country and majority of this country used state courts up until now.

Now perhaps the religions should have their own courts just as the Jewish people do, and keep state out of all marriage, and all people who believe in equal rights under the law should fight the government for just that. Equality under the law regardless of race, creed and so forth.

reply to post by quietlearner


Your reasons sound like the road to fascism. Maybe people should take the responsibility of actually raising their children and promoting their own family ideals rather than expect the government to handle the hard parts of life for them?

A conservative family should be promote the ideals set forth by our founding fathers and the constitution. Not promoting fascism.

Opposing gay marriage will not prohibit anything that you mentioned from happening anyways. In fact, it has probably made it worse due to media attention.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
Well, why are gays and lesbians not buddists then? Then they would be afforded religious freedom and the government/state could not oppose a marriage if it is marriage they want.

Oh, yes they could. And they would. They would say that marriage is NOT a religious institution and it doesn't matter what religion you are, gays can't be married by the state (except in 6 states and DC). Gay Buddhists are not permitted to marry in the other states.

but if it is rights they want, why are they not simply fighting for all people regardless of religion or creed or lack thereof to have equal rights under the law?

Because everyone else already has equal treatment under marriage law. Gay people are the only group of consenting adults that are disallowed to marry.

Originally posted by Tramadolnights

It is actually scary if I'm entirely honest, to think that I could bring a child onto this earth and he will not know his place because he is treated like a woman.

I think it's far scarier what an infantile, bigoted, and outdated dinosaur would teach a child to believe because of his own insecurities and feelings of inadequacy.
Your god knows that what the world needs is some more of the old ways of thinking...
In fact, why don't you join Islam?
It holds all the values you do in it's cute little antiquated world view...After all, Allah and Jehovah are the same invisible dude right?
I can never wrap my mind around why you Religulons can't all just get along...
I mean you all hate gays and are against women's rights so what's the beef?
You guys should be all grab ass with each over at the prospect of firing up the old burning stake. or get real old school and stone the freaks, eh?
When you are done with them, you can launch a crusade/jihad on us rational thinkers.
Careful though, some of us sacrificed the gay fashion sense for the ability to soundly kick your tail from church to mosque...

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by polarwarrior

 

All I can see under the law is tax breaks, the law already affords rights of the patients to decide who visits and who can hold power of attorney etc in hospitalization and death cases.... and life insurance anyone can be your beneficiary that you choose.

so taxes seems to be it, why not fight those laws instead of asking for marriage?

edit on 26-7-2012 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

And home ownership, employment rights (spouses), child care, insurance...

This affects numerous aspects of life, not just taxes.

And it depends where you are too.

For instance, in the UK, a single person has to pay more (council) tax than a couple. How is that right or fair?

The same discrepancies apply across the board when it comes to being gay.

One of the worst stories I heard recently was of a gay couple who had been together for over 20 years. One of them passed away unexpectedly, and his family secured ownership of his property, evicting his partner from the home they had shared for those years.

There are plenty of other stories just like that, from people not allowed to visit their partner on their death bed at the will of their family, to the people refused access to their own children because they are with a male partner who is not their partner in marriage...

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Victim card.

HYPOCRITE

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Victim card.

HYPOCRITE

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Victim card.

HYPOCRITE

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Victim card.

HYPOCRITE

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Sexist victim card.

HYPOCRITE

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

I have some advice for people of your way of thinking - Step into the light, its okay, modern thinking isnt going to hurt you.

I have some advice for you. Get help for your homosexuality then rejoin society as a normal human.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Because everyone else already has equal treatment under marriage law. Gay people are the only group of consenting adults that are disallowed to marry.

But I repeat, marriage is not a public institution, never has been. Was God who defined it, and people who became secular. If you are going to become secular, ie: not believe in God, why simply try to redefine a religious institution simply because you like the institution but not the religion or the God who created it?

Why not say the institution itself is not then something you believe in, since there is no other part of the institution that you do?

In doing so, you are attempting to make religion itself irreligious.

Originally posted by AnarchysAngel
reply to post by quietlearner

 

Your reasons sound like the road to fascism. Maybe people should take the responsibility of actually raising their children and promoting their own family ideals rather than expect the government to handle the hard parts of life for them?

A conservative family should be promote the ideals set forth by our founding fathers and the constitution. Not promoting fascism.

Opposing gay marriage will not prohibit anything that you mentioned from happening anyways. In fact, it has probably made it worse due to media attention.

well they are not my opinions, you can call them fascist but I just wanted to state my point that
not all anti gays are religious
this issue is obviously a very deep and complex issue involving many fields like social, legal, religious, moral, etc to infinity

you can't just label anti gays to be religious fanatics, or bigots, or even fascists
some of them obviously are but not all of them

this us vs them mentality is not the way, especially when pro gays are asking for acceptance and understanding
most gay activist have to learn acceptance and understanding themselves first

reply to post by OpinionatedB


No one god has jurisdiction over marriage. Marriage transcends religious and cultural boundaries and exists in most cultures and societies. To think that marriage was handed down by a single God is just plain stupid, period (not saying you actually think this). Muslims get married, Jews get married, Buddhists get married, Hindus get married, Christians get married. So which one of their gods is in charge of marriage?

What about the ancient Greeks? In their culture the god of marriage was Hymen: en.wikipedia.org...(god)

So which God is it? Which of these traditional versions of marriage should we adhere to?

Personally I think that two consenting adults should be able to get married regardless of race, gender, age difference (as long as both are old enough to consent), religious beliefs, etc. Generally the only one of those things that people are discriminated against when it comes to marriage is gender, it's so odd that so many otherwise intelligent people don't seem to understand that such discrimination is wrong. Not all marriages are religiously based, it's as much a legal contract to recognize you as a couple in the eyes of the government.

reply to post by detachedindividual


All these things are things which should be fought for equal rights for and not anything else.