Can't We Have an Even-handed Discussion About the Holocaust?

reply to post by Biliverdin


It's very arrogant of you to presume to know what I have or have not researched.

reply to post by nightbringr


Germany is still paying compensation payments to 3.5 million Holocaust 'survivors' PLUS a multi-billion $ annual payment (I can't recall if it's 3 billion or 6 billion) to Israel. Now ask yourself, 67 years after the war ended, and there are STILL 3.5 million survivors out of a total prewar jewish population in Europe and western Russia of 9 million. I guess that means that no European or Russian jew died of old age or any other natural causes in the last 67 years. Or could it be that many of those 3.5 million 'survivors' are making bogus claims? The German government can do the math too. They know they're being taken to the cleaners and don't dare raise a fuss because of fear of a worldwide jewish outcry. Guilt pays.

reply to post by Studenofhistory
and some of them even claim to have been in 7 death camps ?

What bothers me about the Holocaust is how it is used as a political football of sorts by some people to justify policies that continue today. It has become a Truth that shall not be questioned, and the Germans have made it worse by all their laws to show their sensitivity. It's time to find out the truth.

Awful things happened, but unless the truth is found, they won't be understood and they won't be prevented. But the oddest thing to me, about the post Nazi experience, is the odd similarities with modern day Israel.

It might not be popular to say, but Zionism and Nazism have similar roots in the basic idea of the races and spaces view of national development. Where other nations have moved toward the laws and equal justice model, Israel did not just as Germany did not.

I wonder if that, in part, is not part of the reason why it has such troubles today.

What bothers me about the Holocaust is how it is used as a political football of sorts by some people to justify policies that continue today. It has become a Truth that shall not be questioned, and the Germans have made it worse by all their laws to show their sensitivity. It's time to find out the truth.

Awful things happened, but unless the truth is found, they won't be understood and they won't be prevented. But the oddest thing to me, about the post Nazi experience, is the odd similarities with modern day Israel.

It might not be popular to say, but Zionism and Nazism have similar roots in the basic idea of the races and spaces view of national development. Where other nations have moved toward the laws and equal justice model, Israel did not just as Germany did not.

I wonder if that, in part, is not part of the reason why it has such troubles today.

reply to post by Studenofhistory


Along with most of your other posts, this too is a very good point. It is sad that there are those who are benefiting financially when they personally were not involved in the horrors. Yes, the German Gov't does indeed know the real story as do other countries, but nothing can be said or done lest they face a backlash from the Jewish people. Countries like Germany would rather be blackmailed and go along with the demands by dishing out money to those who claim to have once been persecuted. Will it ever be enough though? Countries like Germany will be paying for many decades to come, even after the very last holocaust survivor has been long gone. It is not fair to those who have really been hurt and damaged by the atrocities of WWII.

reply to post by The X


I agree that the Holocaust is a chapter in a history of WWII.

However, usually the only ones that try to disprove or revise the Holocaust are the very ones overplaying it.

Any decent historian... amateur or professional knows that there were many groups that suffered in WWII and by many hands besides the Nazis.

I remember as a 12 year old kid sitting by the campfire reading from the Ballantine Books WWII collection... about the firebombings of Japan by the US... more people were killed in incendary raids than with the A-Bombs.

Or the bombings of Dresden... or the Bataan death march and the POW horror stories from Allied soldiers in the Japanese hands...

Or how after winning the war... Stalin had his Kozaks parade through red Square... and at the edge of town... mowed them down with machine gun fire...

Or Malmady and the battle of the Bulge...

or how the 2nd SS Panzer das reich was moving to the Normandy coast and a civilian resistance sniper fired on the column... The advance was halted for a day while the village was literally blown away and every man, woman, and child was executed... keep in mind, the SS Panzers were sorely needed to halt the D-Day invasions...

Or how the Russian troops would advance and charge by the thousands... young men... boys really.. at the German lines and the numbers were so great, that the German guns would begin to overheat and ammo would runout... then the Russians would attack with their Guards units and obliterate the exhausted and depleted German lines...

We could go on... but why? My point is this...

The Holocaust did happen... the only ones that appear to be obsessed with it are the debunkers...

Frankly, when I think of WWII... I get a rush from the song Panzer Leid and the sight of a few German Tigers or Panthers rushing across the Russian Steppes...

Or get inspiration from the 101st at Bastogne...

Or consider that every death is tragic... but we raise a lot of Hell over 5000 or 6000 casualties over 6-8-10 years... when we suffered 60,000 casualties in the first month of the Battle of the Bulge...

And I do remember the victims of Auschwitz, the Warsaw Ghettos, of Kristtel Nacht... and my thought is not... "how many" or "did it happen"... my only thought is this...

Never Again!

reply to post by cassandranova


Yes, I agree that there are disturbing parallels between nazi Germany and present day Israel. The tragedy continues.

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
reply to post by nightbringr

 

Germany is still paying compensation payments to 3.5 million Holocaust 'survivors' PLUS a multi-billion $ annual payment (I can't recall if it's 3 billion or 6 billion) to Israel. Now ask yourself, 67 years after the war ended, and there are STILL 3.5 million survivors out of a total prewar jewish population in Europe and western Russia of 9 million. I guess that means that no European or Russian jew died of old age or any other natural causes in the last 67 years. Or could it be that many of those 3.5 million 'survivors' are making bogus claims? The German government can do the math too. They know they're being taken to the cleaners and don't dare raise a fuss because of fear of a worldwide jewish outcry. Guilt pays.

Thats not what i see here at all. Perhaps you can link your source, since my searches have not shown this to be the case. Wikipedia shows that Germany has long since paid its reparations in full, the only exception being a threat from an Israeli minister in 2009 to demand further payments, and requests for discounts on two warships purchased through Germany.

en.wikipedia.org...

I want to express my gratitude to those of you who kept to the spirit of this thread with calm, rational posts, many of which included factual information. I learned some new facts and I hope some of you have too.

Because of my background, I clearly have a vested interest in exposing false information about the Holocaust but I realize that THE TRUTH, whatever it really is, is still going to be ugly and I can accept that. And to those who say, well what difference does it make if the real death total is 2 million or 6 million, it's still too many, my response is that the real figure is bad enough and doesn't need to be embellished with fake deaths. The legacy of the Holocaust is fear and hatred. Lies tend to do that.

Both the German and jewish peoples have been traumatized by the whole experience. Maybe an international, fact-based investigation into what really happened would be a positive cathartic experience for everyone.

And sometimes the truth really does come out. The Katyn forest massacre of Polish officers was blamed for a long time on the Germans but a few years ago the Russians admitted that they had done it and blamed it on the Germans.

I'm going to be out of touch with the internet for the next week or so. I'll be interested to catch up on the posts when I get back.

Well once again, I've learned something new. I looked for the source of the information about the 3.5 million holocaust survivors still getting compensation payments from Germany and I wasn't able to find it. I distinctly remember reading it but I don't remember where. I did find information in a relatively recent German magazine article that the total amount of compensation payments made since the war is 60 billion euros worth and the number of survivors now is less than 1 million so my apologies for posting incorrect information.

Originally posted by Studenofhistory

And sometimes the truth really does come out. The Katyn forest massacre of Polish officers was blamed for a long time on the Germans but a few years ago the Russians admitted that they had done it and blamed it on the Germans.






And it is for that very reason history will never be 100% accurate. I'm sure that for EVERY war

that ever was there have been atrocities which have never been 'owned up to' and many a

commander/major/general grateful for errors mistakes and orders given not to have come to

light.

I think that's where the quote 'History is written by the victors' must come from. I stated in a

previous post (by way of an analogy on a smaller scale) something to the effect that an incident

occuring in a room full of people will result in a variety of varied different witness statements!

After all the 'truth' is subjective to those who are relating it, and every angle has a different slant.

reply to post by Studenofhistory


That's great of you to come back and tell everyone that you were completely, totally, immensely incorrect but the incorrect post got 5 stars and the apology got 0. That is 5 people that will now go out and quote incorrect, completely fabricated information at the expense credibility and possibly reputation and face because you thought you remembered something so you typed it out as if it was fact.

In light of what you hoped to do in this thread, that is a grievous mistake. It might appear harsh, but this is no longer an Even-handed discussion about the Holocaust is it?

reply to post by callahan


In America we know how to recognize truth, but we must first be able to read the documents. It would be mighty helpful if you explained what the document says, who its from, and why its important.

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

It's very arrogant of you to presume to know what I have or have not researched.

It's not arrogance, nor was I presuming to know what you have and have not researched. I know that by following the money and reporting on that I would not be accused of anti-semitism, because I have followed the money and I know where it leads. No presumption necessary on my part, I know that you are wrong in your assumption.

Confidence perhaps, but arrogance, no.

reply to post by sputniksteve


The records held at Bad Arolsen, which callahan's document pertains, are the concentration camp records, or what survived of them, including card indexes of all those that were registered into the camps and the records of their incarceration there. The document relates to the confirmed deaths of those who were 'registered'.

Note that on that list, Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec are not mentioned. That is because no registrations were made, those people were transported straight to their deaths and never 'admitted' to a camp. Though they were often registered upon departure, and some ghettos also kept their own records. Similarly, on arrival at Auschwitz, only those who were selected for work were registered, those who were murdered on arrival were not registered. Those who bore a tattoo, for instance, would have had a card index, and a file. It is those records that are kept at Bad Arolsen.

Therefore, the document above, only pertains to the deaths of those who entered into the camps and has no bearing on those that were sent immediately upon arrival to their deaths and therefore to the overall number of deaths.

Originally posted by Biliverdin
reply to post by sputniksteve

 

Therefore, the document above, only pertains to the deaths of those who entered into the camps and has no bearing on those that were sent immediately upon arrival to their deaths and therefore to the overall number of deaths.

As you say the document only relates to those who were recorded as passing thru the camps,and as such does not record accurately the numbers who were exterminated.Now to change this around,what basis in fact is there for accepting the commonly quoted figure of 6 million deaths? I mean.if accurate records were not kept.how were those who arrived at the figure of 6 million able to confirm that number?