Zimmerman Accused of Molesting his Cousin.

Originally posted by Sparky63

I would like to honor your request but I did not keep a record of the multiple news sources I have read or heard. I live in Central Florida, not too far from where this happened and there is a constant flow of discussion about this on the radio as well as local newspapers. The main thing that led me to reconsider my initial reaction was the injuries Zimmerman had, the lack of injuries martin had, the audio recording of Zimmerman calling for help, the eye witness accounts and the police reports.
I am keeping an open mind. If more evidence comes forward I am certainly willing to reconsider.

edit on 7/18/2012 by Sparky63 because: spelling & added comment

Fair enough, and that, in itself is an explanation of sorts. You are closer to the source so it's more predominant in all your news sources.

Who was screaming for help has never been confirmed conclusively.

On a dark raining night - - a minor was being followed by an adult male in a "van type" vehicle - - large enough to throw a full size body in.

The adult male was behaving strangely and even though had several opportunities to identify himself - - did not.

Originally posted by Sparky63
If you listen to the audio you will hear the screaming for help, (coming from Zimmerman it seems) and then the sound of the gun firing.

OK, at this point you all have to be playing stupid.
All I want is the evidence of who initiated contact. You all keep telling me it exists and then list all this crap that tells me NOTHING about who initiated it.

The witness also supports this.
Zimmerman could be lying about attacking Martin first, but there is no evidence to support that.

There is no evidence to support Zimmerman's story either.
What there is is a great motivation for Zimmerman to lie, is there not?

Originally posted by Sparky63
I never stated definitively that Martin attacked Zimmerman. I have not already decided the facts of the case.

You said that the facts lean that way and so far are unable to provide even one fact that leans that way. Seems rather opinionated to me.

I said the facts SEEM to point to point to Martin as the attacker.

And you have twice tried and failed to provide said facts. A rational person might realize that their lack of facts means that their temporary conclusion should be rethought but you claim to have not made up your mind, yet insist that some facts you know not of point in one direction an you sit here defending it.

If the facts prove otherwise, I will acknowledge that. I am open to the possibility that Zimmerman attacked Martin first, but so far there is no evidence or testimony to support that notion.

Yeah, you made up your mind already it is just that you are claiming you will be able to admit you were wrong when it turns out you are undeniably wrong.

Sparky, I've just gotten done reading through the whole thread and feel bad you were alone in here for most of it, as I know you're not alone in the opinions you hold. In noting across the last couple pages that you also agree Zimmerman did do some pushing of his own in terms of making this happen, we actually would seem to agree entirely.

Whatever Zimmerman did by not breaking off, he was acting as the recognized Neighborhood watch guy, and I've heard no one say this was a Watch Group of 1.

Zimmerman is also, as evidence shows, the one with the serious injuries. As he's presented. Pretty clear injuries to the back of his head and a broken nose. it seems to me, if Zimmerman was some guy looking to kill someone, he wouldn't have gotten any injuries or certainly not more than one. It sounds like he took quite a bit of injury before he fired.

I'm listening to Hannity's interview with him here and a few things I didn't know. (His attorney is right next to him....talk on news shows HAS been shown in court...I DO believe what he's being allowed to say is what the evidence shows or this attorney sure believes BTW). The recording apparently captured 14 screams....14. Zimmerman says that were his and I'd have to wonder...If not his? Why would Martin be screaming? Physical medical evidence doesn't show him getting hurt, right? Interesting how some folks even debate as to who it could have been.

I also didn't realize how long this went on..as straight evidence shows. He got his butt beat...and when he says he was fearing a loss of consciousness, I can't say I don't believe him. he only thing going through the mind of someone with a gun...still holstered at that point by the sound of it...and about to lose ought to be how fast prayers can be said because winners who capture guns after beating the daylights out of someone aren't generally the most merciful souls...just a pinch of sarcasm.

I'm making my points in agreement, not argument, Sparky. I'm amazed at how many do argue the points which are basically straight evidentiary fact.

Once again - - Zimmerman calls on Hannity. What exactly is the real point of this interview?

Did he talk about the Molestation accusations? Because that is really the subject of this thread.

This is a Law Blog - - hope its OK to link.

Zimmerman Case: Who Uttered the Terrified Scream for Help Punctuated by a Gunshot?

Common sense indicates that the man with the gun would not have been screaming for help up until the precise moment that he pulled the trigger ending TM’s life. The terrified scream also is high pitched indicating a young person in fear for his life, rather than an adult male armed with a gun and, of course, GZ’s injuries were relatively minor and unlikely to have provoked him to scream in terror.

Given GZ’s track record for uttering inconsistent and provably false statements, I doubt that a jury will believe his claim. frederickleatherman.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Whatever Zimmerman did by not breaking off, he was acting as the recognized Neighborhood watch guy, and I've heard no one say this was a Watch Group of 1.

Why do you people need to lie to defend Zimmerman? He was not acting as the "recognized Neighborhood watch guy." That is his story. Why should I accept what he says? Because looking into it is really easy. Who do you think recognized him as a neighborhood watch guy?

Zimmerman is also, as evidence shows, the one with the serious injuries.

OK, so reality is not even a factor with you. Yeah, one guy was shot to death, one got some scratches and the live one is the one with the "serious injuries?"
Are you insane?
So Trayvon died from a rather minor little injury then?
Poor George got the worst of it?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Read your whole post again. You made one really great point.
After all the excuses Zimmerman has given us, you convinced me.
He should have stayed in his damn car. Everything after that is his fault.
He did not know if Martin was a man, a kid, armed or not, tougher, faster and stronger. He knew none of that and was afraid.
So...he got out of his car and volunteered to go into that scary situation with his gun.

You convinced me that either he is lying about how threatening the situation was or he deserved a good ass beating for getting out of his car and going after some kid with his gun like that for no good reason. Whatever happened to personal responsibility.

If George was scared and thought he might die and then chose to get himself in there when there was NO NEED TO then he must be lying about being all that scared.

I also want to know why you are so quick to believe anything he says? You realize his ass is on the line here? He has more motivation to lie right now than ANYONE.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Whatever Zimmerman did by not breaking off, he was acting as the recognized Neighborhood watch guy, and I've heard no one say this was a Watch Group of 1.

Neighborhood watch: key word WATCH.

Yes Zimmerman definitely knew the rules of Neighborhood Watch. He organized and attended the meeting.

1. report any suspicious activity to legal authority. That is the only part he got right.

2. do not confront - do not engage.

3. no guns.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


I'd have to agree. Little kids messing around in a sexual manner is not uncommon. It happens all the time, it's how children explore sexuality before they understand what it really means. If he was 8, and her 6, I don't see how anyone could possibly consider Zimmerman as being more responsible or somehow being considered a molester.

Originally posted by habitforming


According to whom?
You taking the word of the accused shooter and molester are ya?
Maybe you can prove this to us.

Why are you including the whole molestation accusation? That has nothing to do with the shooting of Martin. I'm not taking anyone's word. I'm looking at all the available evidence and coming to a conclusion. Physical evidence (wounds to Zimmerman's head and face) and a witness statement. As well as Zimmerman's testimony, that is backed up by the evidence at hand.

As far as the molestation accusations, HE WAS EIGHT. She was six. You really think an eight year old and a six year old fidding around under the covers is considered molestation? Even IF (and that's a big IF as there has been zero evidence made publicly available) There were any sort of sexual relations between Zimmerman and his cousin, again he was EIGHT and she 6, that's hardly any sort of predatory or sexually abusive action. It's little kids "playing doctor" or have you never heard of that before?

Originally posted by TraitorKiller

I haven't been following the case lately, but is there proof that Martin attacked him first? I thought this was an anonymous witness that said this.

Physical evidence (wounds to Zimmerman's head and face) the witness statement, and Zimmerman's testimony that jives perfectly with the physical evidence.

That's what I'm going off of. What are you basing your opinions on? Because there is zero evidence anywhere that points to anything other than what I've said.

Originally posted by James1982
Why are you including the whole molestation accusation? That has nothing to do with the shooting of Martin.

What thread do you think you are in?

As far as the molestation accusations, HE WAS EIGHT. She was six.

HE WAS 18 AND SHE DID NOT LIKE IT.

You really think an eight year old and a six year old fidding around under the covers is considered molestation?

Not unless it goes on for a decade.

Even IF (and that's a big IF as there has been zero evidence made publicly available) There were any sort of sexual relations between Zimmerman and his cousin, again he was EIGHT and she 6, that's hardly any sort of predatory or sexually abusive action. It's little kids "playing doctor" or have you never heard of that before?

Why are you trying so hard to lie about the ages when this happened?

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Whatever Zimmerman did by not breaking off, he was acting as the recognized Neighborhood watch guy, and I've heard no one say this was a Watch Group of 1.

Why do you people need to lie to defend Zimmerman? He was not acting as the "recognized Neighborhood watch guy." That is his story. Why should I accept what he says? Because looking into it is really easy. Who do you think recognized him as a neighborhood watch guy?

Zimmerman is also, as evidence shows, the one with the serious injuries.

OK, so reality is not even a factor with you. Yeah, one guy was shot to death, one got some scratches and the live one is the one with the "serious injuries?"
Are you insane?
So Trayvon died from a rather minor little injury then?
Poor George got the worst of it?

As many as 40 calls to police in the past from Zimmerman in a supporting role to the local Police Department tells me he was, in fact, what he and many others have said he was. I've yet to hear a local resident dispute it. Neighborhood Watch. Even the media that hate him don't take that away from him. So... I'm not sure where that has now become a topic of dispute.

That's two personal attacks in one message, and such a short one too... First I'm a liar and now I ignore reality. I believe the body of my writing at this site says quite the opposite to my approach on subjects and the degree of time I actually do put into insuring I have my facts right.

The *FACT* here and within *REALITY* would be that only two people on Earth know what actually happened in the last moments and one isn't with us anymore. Everything beyond that is speculation by us both, although I think some of the guessing could be better informed than others..

I'd just like to repeat on these sexual allegations for anyone not real familiar with our system in America.

These fall outside the statute of limitations for the State of Florida. Why that is important here is this. These "crimes", if anything really happened, can never be charged. That means he can never be tried and MOST importantly, he can NEVER DEFEND HIMSELF against them. He can never explain his side, if there is a side and he can never face his accuser.

In essence, this is the ultimate sniping from the cheap seats to hurt his odds at a fair trial with accusations that have as much substance as the air we breathe. It can never be different..because of statute of limitation. The Prosecutor knows that, but apparently....uncharged and unprovable accusation in a court room is dandy to play for the public and press to just go wild over.

So much for even a pretense at innocent until proven guilty. That used to be a core American value. Then again, many things USED to be true...and aren't today. We've lost so much, and the technical handling of this case stands as example to much of that.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
These fall outside the statute of limitations for the State of Florida. Why that is important here is this. These "crimes", if anything really happened, can never be charged. That means he can never be tried and MOST importantly, he can NEVER DEFEND HIMSELF against them. He can never explain his side, if there is a side and he can never face his accuser.

What is stopping him from telling his side of the story, exactly?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

As many as 40 calls to police in the past from Zimmerman in a supporting role to the local Police Department tells me he was, in fact, what he and many others have said he was.

Unfortunately for you Neighborhood Watch actually has guidelines and rules, none of which Zimmerman was following. Calling the police often does not legitimize your fake "I am a neighborhood watch guy" when you are not following one single piece of Neighborhood Watch Protocol.

I've yet to hear a local resident dispute it. Neighborhood Watch. Even the media that hate him don't take that away from him. So... I'm not sure where that has now become a topic of dispute.

The NHWA has spoken out and so have several neighbors that complained about Zimmerman as a nosy wannabe. He can call himself what he wants all day long. We can look up what it is to be one and see if he came close. He did not.

That's two personal attacks in one message, and such a short one too... First I'm a liar and now I ignore reality. I believe the body of my writing at this site says quite the opposite to my approach on subjects and the degree of time I actually do put into insuring I have my facts right.

What exactly did I call a lie? I do not see you defending it.

The *FACT* here and within *REALITY* would be that only two people on Earth know what actually happened in the last moments and one isn't with us anymore. Everything beyond that is speculation by us both, although I think some of the guessing could be better informed than others..

Yes but I know what it means to be part of Neighborhood Watch and Zimmerman was not.

reply to post by IpsissimusMagus


If I noticed some guy following me around I would be upset too and ask the guy why he was following me. If I saw some suspicious looking person walking around my neighborhood I would call the police. I wouldn't grab a gun and try to follow him.

No one knows who began the physical altercation. But in my opinion Trayvon had more of a right to confront the person who was following him. Than Zimmerman had a right to follow and confront someone walking down the street.

reply by humanoidX
--------------------------
You are leaving out the part that it was Zimmermann responsibility to be aware of suspicious behavior in his neighborhood watch position. He wasn't sitting in his house and then decided to simply go out look for suspiciously behaving people. Of course the outcome was absolutely terrible and a life was lost, and most anyone would have hoped that this would have been handled differently...but Unfortunately it didn't.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
These fall outside the statute of limitations for the State of Florida. Why that is important here is this. These "crimes", if anything really happened, can never be charged. That means he can never be tried and MOST importantly, he can NEVER DEFEND HIMSELF against them. He can never explain his side, if there is a side and he can never face his accuser.

What is stopping him from telling his side of the story, exactly?

In a court of law, where criminal accusations ought to be heard and prosecuted, this set of accusations will never be heard. So, in the one place which matters...the only place that matters..he'll not have his day in court. He'll now just have untold years, if he's not in prison from the shooting, to deal with the accusation of being a child molester. How many even bothered here to see these were both Children playing children's games at 6 and 8 years old when the accusations claim anything began? That little distinction will sure be something he'll be repeating for years.

Prosecutors could show some class and not try a case which is already imflaming passions to violence, in the media. It's as irresponsible as anything gets..especially when, as noted, the worst of the accusations are ones he's stuck with around his neck because of how it's being handled.

Think the shooting was bad? Fine... try him on it and lets see. Piling on like this isn't just low class....it's subverting our legal system and if this were done to other defendants in other circumstances I believe those cheering it now would be all but tearing down the Courthouse doors.

reply to post by Annee

Just a quick word on something.... You note #3 on your list of guidelines there on Neighborhood Watch as "No Guns". I know it drives some people crazy and some others just disagree so hard they could burst. The fact is thought in Florida, as it is in Missouri, guns are 100% legal and proper to carry with the permit which he had. Guidelines or rules attempting to counter that hold no water. Period.

He was entirely within his right to be armed, whatever his purpose for being there. Watch or not. That is the law, that is the Constitution of our nation and as one who also carries a firearm daily, as part of my rights as a citizen, I can say he would have been insane NOT to be armed while actively looking for what others run from and avoid.

Whatever laws he did or did not break over the course of the evening we're talkng about, being armed was absolutely not among them. Not in Florida and not like this. Heck..I didn't even go on vacation without my weapon. It's not a 'neat thing'. It becomes a simple way of life and as automatic as grabbing my wallet. I'll bet it was for him, as well.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Just a quick word on something.... You note #3 on your list of guidelines there on Neighborhood Watch as "No Guns". I know it drives some people crazy and some others just disagree so hard they could burst. The fact is thought in Florida, as it is in Missouri, guns are 100% legal and proper to carry with the permit which he had. Guidelines or rules attempting to counter that hold no water. Period.

I am in Arizona - - a member of NRA. DO NOT go gun preaching to me.

The Neighborhood Watch rules/guidelines states - - NO GUNS

Originally posted by HumanoidX

No one knows who began the physical altercation. But in my opinion Trayvon had more of a right to confront the person who was following him. Than Zimmerman had a right to follow and confront someone walking down the street.

Yes.

Emotional opinion on this is one thing. Letter of the Law is another.

So far Letter of the Law has made a case - - - which many of the pro Letter of the Law posters said would never happen.

When it comes to Stand Your Ground - - seems to me Trayvon is more in position for that then Zimmerman.

As a law officer explained: once Zimmerman profiled and labeled Trayvon as having suspicious behavior - - then pursuing him while armed with a gun - - he gave up the right of defense.

We shall see.