Firefighters Ordered to Remove American Flags From Their Trucks

I get the feeling this post is to bait....

From: www.usa-flag-site.org...

American Flag Etiquette.

Federal law stipulates many aspects of flag etiquette. The section of law dealing with American Flag etiquette is generally referred to as the Flag Code. Some general guidelines from the Flag Code answer many of the most common questions:

The flag should be lighted at all times, either by sunlight or by an appropriate light source.
The flag should be flown in fair weather, unless the flag is designed for inclement weather use.
The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.
The flag should not be used for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.
The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard.
The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.
The flag should never have any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind placed on it, or attached to it.
The flag should never be used for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms. To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously.
The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary.
When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of our country, it should be destroyed by burning in a dignified manner.

Originally posted by phantomjack
I am not sure how much I can take.

A Seminole County Fire station has been ordered by city government to remove the American Flag from their trucks.

“There was an [order] from a chief to remove all flags from the apparatus”, one of the protesters explained.

But the order had nothing to do with safety, nor with the quality of the flags being flown. They were not tattered or worn, according to reports.

The City is being "Sensitive" to those who have anti-American feelings.

Awe, poor, poor anti-americans. They now are going to attack the flag, which traditionally has been a staple to fire trucks and fire uniforms across this country since the Fire Service was created by Benjamin Franklin.

The local Fox affiliate, WTVT-TV, got in touch with a spokesperson for Seminole Fire Rescue, who said that the city is trying to be “sensitive” about the proper display of the American flag.

But firefighters said off-camera that it really all began after the city received two complaints about large American flags being flown from the backs of fire trucks.

Seminole Fire Rescue spokesperson Alison Shanabrook admits as much, telling WTVT the city received a complaint about the flag being “inappropriately displayed.”

In a statement released to the media she says: “[The] City is trying to be sensitive to the proper display of the American flag,” and she pointed out the flag is part of the standard firefighter uniform.

After they appeased the complainers, the firefighters said, they were then asked to remove the smaller flags. And now they are seemingly not allowed to fly any American flags.

Here is what I have to say to the complainers: Have a Fire? Call Castro. Maybe he can help!

This just simply goes beyond reason. The inmates ARE running the asylum.

SOURCE

edit on 7/16/2012 by tothetenthpower because: --Mod Edit--All Caps

edit on 7/16/2012 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)

Whoever is responsible for this at the Seminole County Commissioners office, should be IMPEACHED and REMOVED from OFFICE and RUN OUT OF TOWN ON A RAIL ! Enough of this Anti-Americanism crap.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE OR LOVE AMERICA, GET THE FRACK OUT, LEAVE !!!!

Originally posted by Plotus
I get the feeling this post is to bait....

Nope. The post is to DEBATE

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital

Originally posted by phantomjack
reply to post by CrimsonKapital

 

I digress. I thought that we did provide Australia with aid.

My apologies.

But, for the record, if I ever moved from the USA, Australia or New Zealand would be my pick.

I am not anti-American contrary to popular belief, I am just against the corporatist war-machine that hides underneath the American flag.
No need to apologise.

CK.

Thanks.

Then what we need is an individual, or being, powerful enough to step in and just scream "STOP!"

This insanity across the globe needs to come to an end, but nobody on earth is powerful enough to make it stop.

So, while there are those who pray to GOD for salvation, I happen to "pray" that some being greater than us will step in and put this crap to an end.

Nobody wants to send their children to war.

One must wait until the master baits.

Originally posted by jtma508
To appease 'anti-americans' you say? The two source articles I read stated that the fire department got two complaints from people who said that two large flags on the back of a firetruck were being 'inappropriately displayed'.

This from the actual situation:

Alison Shanabrook, a spokesperson for Seminole Fire Rescue, said the city did receive a complaint that the flag was being "inappropriately displayed."

In a statement released to the media Shanabrook says: "[The] City is trying to be sensitive to the proper display of the American flag," and she pointed out the flag is part of the standard firefighter uniform.

Where is the 'sensitive to anti-americans part exactly? For all we know the flags truly were 'inappropriately displayed' and the caller was a military veteran who was concerned. I can't in a million years imagine a county government 'appeasing anti-Americans'. I call BS

^ THIS
No where in the article or 'off the record' quotes mentions anything about appeasing anti-Americans. All we know is that a fire truck had two large flags on the back of it and someone complained that they weren't properly displayed.

/thread

I say we came the fire chief and tell them we all miss the AMERICAN flag. Stop letting these small minorites (WHOEVERthat may be) ruing this amazing country. If the flag is not properly flying, fix it, move on and tell them to suck it. Then forget about it, if they fire me so be it....

Originally posted by stanats
If any of you would spend a few seconds on google, you can completely debunk OP's idiotic post:

www.theledger.com...

"The flags' staffs were not "fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender" like the Flag Code prescribes.

The resident complained about the improper display, Shanabrook said. So city administrators ordered the makeshift flags removed, and invited employees to come up with a plan that complied with Flag Code.

No one did, Shanabrook said.

A few weeks ago, an employee put a flag on a fire engine again. A resident complained again.

"While we do not believe the act of one of our employees to display a flag was meant to be disrespectful, the flag was removed," Shanabrook said in a statement."

I really have to ask, to you and all of the others who have refered to me as an Idiot.

First, I didn't write the article. I provided quotes and links so that you can read the article that I read and felt a need to post it here on ATS.

Secondly, the fact that the flags were removed because of "CODE" and "DISPLAY" issues was not stated in the interview with the Chief, which was part of my post and link.

Why did it take the Chief several days to finally reveal the true reason that the flag on trucks became an issue?

Don't you think that he, probably an intelligent man, would have dispelled this issue IMMEDIATELY?

No, instead, people like you continue to try to insult me by making these "idiot" comments.

Trust me when I tell you, I am the farthest thing from an Idiot.

Choose other five letter words to describe me, fine. But not IDIOT.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke

Originally posted by phantomjack

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke

Originally posted by phantomjack

Flags have been fought for since the beginning of civilizations.

That's simply not true. National flags, like nationalism itself, are a recent invention.

From the wiki:

Historically, flags originate as military standards, used as field signs. The practice of flying flags indicating the country of origin outside of the context of warfare emerges with the maritime flag, introduced during the age of sail, in the early 17th century. It was only with the emergence of nationalist sentiment from the late 18th century that the desire was felt to display national flags also in civilian contexts,[1] notably the US flag, in origin adopted as a naval ensign in 1777, which after the American Revolution[year needed] began to be displayed as a generic symbol of the United States, and the French Tricolore which became a symbol of the Republic in the 1790s. The British Union Flag was designed as a naval ensign in the 17th century, but it was not identified as "national flag" of the United Kingdom prior to 1908.[2]

Most countries of Europe adopted a national flag in the course of the 19th and early 20th centuries

That is absolutely not true. Whoever wrote that wiki is completely wrong.

Armies going back to the greeks and romans, and even as far back as Ancient Egypt and the Vikings flew their country's colors in ALL battles.

Nonsense - national flags, like the nation state, are a recent invention. I'll humour you though - which country's flag did the Vikings take into battle? What did it look like?

I suggest you look up who the Vikings were, and you might see how silly your claim is.

Same questions for the Ancient Greek, Roman and Ancient Egyptian flags - which "country" did they represent, and what national flag did they fly.

As I said, the nation state is a recent invention, again from the wiki:

Most theories see the nation state as a 19th-century European phenomenon, facilitated by developments such as mass literacy and the early mass media. However, historians also note the early emergence of a relatively unified state, and a sense of common identity, in Portugal and the Dutch Republic.
In France, Eric Hobsbawm argues the French state preceded the formation of the French people. Hobsbawm considers that the state made the French nation, not French nationalism, which emerged at the end of the 19th century, the time of the Dreyfus Affair. At the time of the 1789 French Revolution, only half of the French people spoke some French, and 12-13% spoke it "fairly", according to Hobsbawm.

etc

Do you think this wiki is also completely wrong?

edit on 18/7/12 by FatherLukeDuke because: (no reason given)

I am not going to debate you. You can go and research it yourself.

The Viking flag was called the "Raven"

If you are smart, you will be able to use Google and look it up, as well as the flags that the Romans, Greeks, and Other ancient civilizations used.

You know, one tactic of liberals is to repeat a lie long enough until they themselves actually believe it.

I have a degree in Ancient Civilization, thats a BS, not a BA. So unless you are actually educated in this subject matter, I have no more time to debate you on what I know as fact.

I do believe those rules about the flags only apply to government institutions, such as US Post Office, and not to ordinary citizens. That's why a person can wear a flag tee shirt without getting into trouble.

Besides if it were me I'd sue for breaching my freedom of speech and anything else I can.

Originally posted by KarmaComa
reply to post by phantomjack

 

I am not a big fan of US in general (way of thinking, working conditions, etc.), but there is something about US for which I have a huge respect, is your love for your country and your flag. And following, the respect which you guys have for the people who represent this flag and would give their life for it (e.g. firefighters, soliders, etc.).

Here in Europe, if you are seen with your country flag you are just a national fascist, but then it is OK to have another country flag with you, as it is your origin. I especially think of France.
Situation has been improving with the last two football/soccer world cups, but I would never ever see myself walking around with my country flag, or have it on my car, on my house, etc. except maybe during world cup football games.

When soldiers have died for USA, even in Irak (i.e. a war which is not fully supported by US people), you US people show a lot of respect for these fallen soldiers.
I know it is the same in Canada. I remember seeing some photos of fallen soldiers coffins being transported from the airbase (where they arrived from Afghanistan) to another military base, and you could see so many people, on the way, with Canadian flags, paying homage to these fallen soldiers.

Here in Europe some people are almost happy that our soldiers are killed somewhere (e.g. check out what Mohammed Merah, the child killer from Toulouse, said before he was killed).
There is no respect for one's country or flag.
I remember a few years ago that some people replaced the French flag by an Algerian flag in a town, politicians were just a bit annoyed.

Once again, I wish Europe was not following that much US, in economy, etc. but we should DEFINITELY follow US regarding your love for your country & flag.

That said, you can guess my position regarding these flags removal.
I can understand that some people may find the use of a big flag on a fire truck a bit innapropriate, but hey, the small flags on the side of the truck, inappropriate???

Thank you for your respectful post.

What I have found about Europe is that its hard to have nationalism when you have so many countries packed into such a small area. You can drive to another country, or several, in a half of a day, whereas, for us, we are very isolated..and a day's trip in a car gets you about 5 states away from most places, of which all fly the same flag.

So its easy for Europeans to have such a dichotomy.

Thank you for understanding that while there are people who hate the military, both Americans and Non, we do support them. Even those who fought in Vietnam. Unfortunately, you saw our troops come home in the 60;s and 70's based on what the MSM wanted you to see. THEY Created the hatred...not our people.

Originally posted by christoph
i wonder if this is just something to make everyone run around with a flag and be patriotic like after 9/11

And WHY would that be a BAD thing?

I didn't realize that Patriots had to be subject to some sort of "craze"

That explains why I saw a Firetruck cruising around showing off the American flag. .

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
One must wait until the master baits.

ok, that was good..

No debate from me, master.

Wait, I'm confused. Were the complaints from people who dislike America or the flag, or were they from people who thought the firefighters were somehow disrespecting the flag? Inappropriately displayed could really mean either one imo.

What I really do not understand is why are the flags even an issue. I have never even noticed them.

why do i even bother really

Several of us have repeatedly pointed out (citing the original and follow-up Seminole County press releases) that this has N O T H I N G whatsoever to do with anti-americanism. Was never said, implied or suggested. Simply an 'innapropriate display' concern voiced by a couple of citizens. But a large chunk of posters just breeze by those facts and instead wallow in this ongoing jingoistic circle-jerk. WTF people? There aren't enough REAL issues to rant about?

You know, this community ought to have a motto like, 'Deny Ignorance' or something. Oh wait...

I stated earlier in the week that I sent letters to the Chief and the city manager....I received replies yesterday:

From Frank Edmunds, City Manager:

"Thank you for your email. Please read the attachment for a complete description of this matter."

www.tampabay.com...

From Fire Chief Bessler:

"In response to your email, our city’s desire has remained to see American flags
flown from our fire apparatus as long as it meets the US Code. The issue was
that a single flag was removed from one of our fire apparatus because the flag
was displayed in a manner not in accordance with the US Code, Title 36, Chapter
10, Section 175, paragraph b. Employees were previously advised in writing on
the language in the US Code regarding the proper way to display a flag on a
vehicle. This was done as a result of employees previously displaying a US flag
improperly on one of our vehicles. An employee committee has been working on a
plan to fly flags on all our apparatus that would comply with the US Code for
the past three months.

This most recent instance an employee placed a flag on one of the fire apparatus
without city approval and again not in accordance with the US Code. While I do
not believe the act of one of our employees to display a flag was meant to be
disrespectful, that is exactly what happened and the flag was rightfully ordered
removed. This issue was never about sensitivity by a single complainant, it was
about respecting our flag and our responsibility to make sure all flags are
always respectfully displayed. I encourage all Americans to read and understand
the US Code, specifically Title 36.

I am proud to report that our department will not wait for the employee
committee to make a recommendation on how to properly display the American flag
on our vehicles. Our maintenance division is fabricating stainless steel flag
poles that will be mounted to the right front bumper (Fire engines don’t have
fenders) of all our fire apparatus and flown with a flag made in the United
States by the end of the week.


UNITED STATES CODE, TITLE 36, CHAPTER 10
§175. Position and manner of display
The flag, when carried in a procession with another flag or flags, should be
either on the marching right; that is, the flag's own right, or, if there is a
line of other flags, in front of the center of that line.
• (a) The flag should not be displayed on a float in a parade except from
a staff, or as provided in subsection (i) of this section.
• (b) The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of
a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat. When the flag is displayed on a
motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right
fender.
Thank you for your email.

George Bessler, Fire Chief
City of Seminole Fire Rescue
9199 113 Street North
Seminole FL 33772
(727) 393-8711 ext. 217
Everyone Goes Home! "

The thing to take from this, is that as timely as the posting was made, those who made early comments did not have all the information about this, including myself, and the OP left out key elements of the story and so we have this huge mess in posts and arguing and so on.

As for myself, I can see how things might have gotten twisted in the postings. Our Country has been under attack and more recently, the FLAG has come under attack in a lot of different places around the country. It is easy to jump to conclusions about Anti-Americanism and I don't blame those who did. The truth is we have Muslims infiltrating this country in record numbers and trying to change our way of life into Sharia Law living. That's not going to happen. Eventually there is going to be war over this, either a physical confrontation or something else.

Either way, America is a MELTING POT of cultures. We have lost our own IDENTITY in all of this. We can't sing the National Anthem anymore at Public School events, can't say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore before we start events or school. On and On and On it goes. Every day another piece of Americana is being taken down because some is offended. Can't say prayer at sporting events because it offended someone.

Well, TOO FREAKIN' BAD if you don't like it. We're gonna say the Pledge of Allegiance, Say a Prayer and Display or Wear our FLAG proudly and IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, then you have every RIGHT to LEAVE this country and go somewhere else in the world that suits your beliefs. YOU are NOT taking MINE away from ME.
I don't care WHO you are, WHERE you are, HOW you are. America is the PLACE where I WAS BORN and I AM PROUD of her accomplishments in the World. We are the Greatest Nation to ever have existed. If you DON'T LIKE THAT, THEN LEAVE ! BE GONE ! GO have your FREEDOM elsewhere, if you can find it.