Survey: How Many Have Switched from Extraterrestrial Hypothesis to Interdimensional?

Originally posted by FireMoon
news.bbc.co.uk...

That clip was edited, the original shows his left arm uncontrollably shaking.


www.history.com...-hitlers-parkinsons

Until there is a post mortem verification of Parkinsons', you have no diagnosis only speculation which is worth nothing more than what it is.

Guessing.

Originally posted by schuyler

I cannot dismiss the ideas of Arthur C. Clarke and replace them with, well, nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. For myself, I need more than that.

edit on 7/26/2012 by schuyler because: (no reason given)

IOW, you admire and take at face value Clarke's speculations over others speculations, that's your prerogative. Either way, one is left with speculation. You included.

Originally posted by RongoRongo

Originally posted by schuyler

I cannot dismiss the ideas of Arthur C. Clarke and replace them with, well, nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. For myself, I need more than that.

edit on 7/26/2012 by schuyler because: (no reason given)

IOW, you admire and take at face value Clarke's speculations over others speculations, that's your prerogative. Either way, one is left with speculation. You included.

I do not deny speculating. The whole idea of IDH is speculation. It's not grounded in any kind of substantiated theory. What I find fascinating is that people on here will dismiss people like Clarke and Einstein with a wave of the hand, then substitute their own "facts" such as "FTL Starships exist" without ANY substantiation AT ALL. Nothing. Nada. Zip. They just believe it, so that ends the matter. Jesus saves.

Here's the difference. People like Einstein and Clarke have credibility. We on ATS basically do not. Why do these people have credibility? Because they have a demonstrable track record of speculations which were tested via the scientific method and found to be valid. Clarke speculated that maybe you could stick a satellite in orbit and use it to communicate. His speculation was backed up mathematically. Given what was known about gravity, the orbits of planets and moons, etc., the theory looked good. A few years later, he was proven correct.

Einstein's theory of realtivity has forever changed science. In the last 100 years experiments have validated Einstein and none have invalidated him. There may be a way around the FTL problem. String heory may point to a possibility, but that doesn't mean Einstein is somehow invalid. That doesn't mean it's simply a matter of inventing Warp Drive to solve the issue. That's the Hollywood approach.

Now WHY should I accept as equally valid the idea that there is such a thing as a FTL Starship just because someone here says there is without ANY substantiation whatsoever? Where is the credibility here? Where is the track record of "successful speculation"? Well, there isn't any. And you want me to take these two ideas as equal????

Here we've got Einstein, who rocked the world of physics to its core and Clarke, whose "speculations" turned out to be right on the money smack dab 100% accurate against what? We don't even know. Someone who has a B.A. in anthropology? Someone who flunked math? Someone who has never taken anything beyond a high school physics course? Someone who says, "Pfft! Horsefeathers! Einstein is wrong and FTL starships are real because I say they are real"?

I don't think so.

This is not a case of everyone being equal, of everyone putting their pants on the same way, therefore they're just as smart as anyone else. You can't enforce equality by edict here. The Laws of Physics can't be broken just because you consider yourself an anarchist and above the fray. You've got to show your work.

If you're going to claim that FTL Starships exist, then you must show your work if you want to be taken seriously. You must show how that can happen. You must develop the theory, do the math, pay your dues, and prove your case. Just proclaiming a reality of your own invention is not good enough. If you want to invent a World of Warcraft, be my guest, but it has nothing to do with solving the issues here.

And that's why I will choose Einstein over the baseless speculation shown here. Einstein showed his work. You have not. That's why he is more credible than you are.

reply to post by schuyler

Nine paragraphs to say that Einstein would have better odds in Vegas that his unsubstantiated claims might come to pass more often then anyone's on ATS? Think simple.

The whole UFO phenomenon shows the weaknesses of human logic and thinking.

Because we use vehicles to travel, we assume that those objects are crafts used for travel. Because we stand on two feet, we tell stories of aliens who have similar physical attributes as we do (eyes, hands, feet etc). Because we act due motivation to accomplish something, we think that there has to be some purpose behind the sightings.

And the story that started by some odd things in the sky evolves from there to the point of ludicrousness you can find in any UFO convention. In those meetings you have people lecturing about lizard aliens and their agendas, mixed with healing crystals you can buy for 19.99$. At this site there is thread discussing alien races.

Wonder why no-one is taking us seriously?

The very first question should be finding the answer what the UFO's are.

Nobody said those occasionally seen odd things in the skies came from outer space. Nobody said at first there are someone controlling them. Simply, nobody knew - and still does not know - what they are and what is their purpose. We do not even know if they are vehicles.

UK government has currently quite open policy about their past study of this phenomenon (see Great Britain's National Archives on this link).

From government perspective, all they know is that they do not pose a threat to security. The sightings are interesting but investigating further something which has very little concrete material to investigate (aside reports or testimonials) is results only to more speculation.

I think everyone interested in the UFO phenomenon should keep mind the words of Sir Winston Churchill:

“What does all this stuff about flying saucers amount to? What can it mean? What is the truth?”

Sir Winston Churchill - July 1952 (Catalogue reference PREM 11/855)

reply to post by SCITK


I went through these documents.
I have seen what classified documents means related to a job i was to start (not not UFO files)
These are not documents of high secrecy, these are useless but still for the most BLIND SKEPTIC will be useful to see UFOs in terms of UFOs DO HAPPEN

And yes, based on my knowledge how secret documents are kept, especially ones that would disturb the whole world, I assure you, these documents by the UK are a joke compared to what they are liekly hiding and they are hiding informaiton

Originally posted by schuyler
If you're going to claim that FTL Starships exist, then you must show your work if you want to be taken seriously. You must show how that can happen. You must develop the theory, do the math, pay your dues, and prove your case. Just proclaiming a reality of your own invention is not good enough. If you want to invent a World of Warcraft, be my guest, but it has nothing to do with solving the issues here.

Of course the same logic could be applied to this entire thread. It is all 100% speculation, 0% fact, 0% scientifically validated theory.

-spacial dimensions beyond third dimension, 100% speculation (even the extremely tiny dimensions proposed by string theory)
- time travel, 100% speculation
-parallel dimensions at "higher frequency", 100% speculation
- angels, demons, djinn, 100% speculation
- parallel universe, 100% speculation

We do know however, that inter-stellar travel is probably quite possible at lower than light speeds, even though it would take a long time to get anywhere. (so that is at least a viable theory)

We do know that there seems to be some verification to the existence of wormholes but it is still just speculation that these would be of any use in practical travel through space.

So although FTL is speculation, it is by no means more speculative than just about everything contained in this thread and everything ever proposed as part of the "Inter-Dimensional Theory" to "explain" UFOs or "aliens".

Just thought I'd share the following quote--reminiscent of the flatland metaphor/explanation of extra dimensions--and a link to the pdf of Operation Trojan Horse.

Visualize a teen-­aged boy with a microscope. He is studying a tiny microbe with a total life-­span of sixty seconds. He takes a fine needle and pokes it into the liquid environment of the microbe—a drop of water on a slide which seems limitless to the minute creature. Suppose that the microbe has some sort of visual or sensory apparatus. The point of the needle would suddenly appear enigmati-­ cally before it, a totally foreign object beyond the microbe's experience and frame of reference. The bewildered microbe swims around the object, studies it, then sits down and writes a microbe report on the unexplained object which he saw. When the boy withdraws the needle, the "object" suddenly disappears in front of the microbe because it is no longer part of his environment—or his time cycle.

Five minutes later, by the boy's clock, he reinserts the needle into that same drop of water. Now many generations of microbes have passed. A new microbe glimpses this wonder and hurries to the microbe library and uncovers the old report. Strange foreign objects made out of an unknown material and behaving in a most peculiar way had been seen in ancient times, the microbe learns. To the boy, the two events spanned a mere five minutes. To the microbes, many generations had passed. By our time cycle, the two events were almost simultane-­ ous.

Switch things around a bit. Now we are the microbes. Could it be possible that all UFO events are interrelated, and although they are widely separated according to our time cycle, they might really be almost simultaneous events to the ufonauts?

…It may be that all human events occur simultaneously when viewed by a greater intelligence. The boy peering through the microscope can plainly see a microscopic obstacle looming up in front of the microbe seconds before it even becomes aware of the obstacle. He can thus predict in a limited way the microbe's future. In a single minute of earth time he can watch the birth, growth, reproduction, and death of the microbe.

Operation Trojan Horse

reply to post by The GUT
hi gut,i made a post to you recently but i think it must have got lost. i just wanted to say thanks for posting a link to the thread "they come from within", what an awesome read. I just wanted to ask, did Mike turn it all into a book in the end? ta

Originally posted by RongoRongo
reply to post by schuyler

 

Nine paragraphs to say that Einstein would have better odds in Vegas that his unsubstantiated claims might come to pass more often then anyone's on ATS? Think simple.

Once again, no content from you. If you want to think "simple," be my guest, but if your posts are an indication of what thinking simply imparts, then we're not getting anywhere. You are not adding to the discussion, as it were.

My basic issue here is that I don't think you can just make up stuff and declare it to be true. You have to have some sort of basis from which to make your claims. It just cracks me up every time someone declares, "Einstein was wrong!"

Oh, really? And on what basis, genius, do you feel you are a bona fide critic of Einstein? Why should ANYONE listen to you AT ALL? I'm quite convinced that half the people on ATS still live in their Moms' basements and are people I would not hire to mow my lawn. Yet we're supposed to consider their make believe as equal. So you can just say, "FTL Starships exist!" and we're supposed to nod and say, "Thank you for your contribution."

Or not.

Gut, thanks for the thread. It's been a wild ride, but I fear we are spinning our wheels here and rehashing stuff we should have set aside ages ago. I hope some people have appreciated what I have been able to contribute, but if I am to be ridculed by idiots with ad hominem attacks who do not have the background to recognize their own ignorance, I have to weigh whether the time and energy put into this discussion is worthwhile. I'm not getting anything out of this discussion, and I fear ATS is simply not the venue where that can happen.

Thanks again.

reply to post by thedoctorswife
Hey, DW. I meant to get back to you on that, but i didn't know the answer and it seems MikeBoydUS hasn't been active lately. I'm glad you enjoyed his thread, I always found him knowledgeable and extremely intelligent.

What a tour de force They Come From Within is, eh?

A view of his profile and authored threads reveals quite a number of interesting topics he covered.

Maybe he's got himself sealed up somewhere writing it now.

I'll do a search and see if I can determine if he's published. If I find out anything I'll let you know.

Originally posted by schuyler
...Gut, thanks for the thread. It's been a wild ride, but I fear we are spinning our wheels here and rehashing stuff we should have set aside ages ago. I hope some people have appreciated what I have been able to contribute, but if I am to be ridculed by idiots with ad hominem attacks who do not have the background to recognize their own ignorance, I have to weigh whether the time and energy put into this discussion is worthwhile. I'm not getting anything out of this discussion, and I fear ATS is simply not the venue where that can happen.

Thanks again.

I totally understand, amigo. I truly appreciate all that you've shared here. I consider it an honor and I learned a lot. Thank you. I'm sure you planted more seeds than we can know.

I've really enjoyed some of your other writings and contributions to the field that I stumbled across because of this thread. Keep up the good work!!

If constructive conversation picks back up, I'll shoot you a u2u and see if you might stop back by.

Peace, shuyler.

Originally posted by The GUT
reply to post by thedoctorswife

 

Hey, DW. I meant to get back to you on that, but i didn't know the answer and it seems MikeBoydUS hasn't been active lately. I'm glad you enjoyed his thread, I always found him knowledgeable and extremely intelligent.

What a tour de force They Come From Within is, eh?

A view of his profile and authored threads reveals quite a number of interesting topics he covered.

Maybe he's got himself sealed up somewhere writing it now.

I'll do a search and see if I can determine if he's published. If I find out anything I'll let you know.

Great stuff! thanks, goodness, threads were of a better quality back then, threads like that are so hard to find on ats these days, im gonna search out the et forum archives.

Okay, ETH'ers riddle me this. Another aspect that comes up when discussing the ETH and considering the IDH is not only the vast number of anomalous sightings that take place, but the extreme variety of the various "nuts & bolts" craft that have been described.

Why so many different models? Outside of the rather vague "Cigar" it's pretty rare that the same craft is described twice, and when they are it's usually craft that fall into the likelihood of being top secret government craft i.e. the Triangles or else hoaxes.

The "saucers" themselves vary so much from encounter to encounter that it's difficult to imagine a ready explanation for why?

What does stay consistent throughout the historical accounts are the sightings that describe encounters with anomalous light phenomena. Often pulsating lights."Lights " that split and/or merge among other things.

Some here claim that the ETH, as opposed to the IDH, is based more closely on science, but, if so, it's a theory that leaves some large and gaping holes. And, besides, I can't see that one unproven theory is superior to the other all things being equal.

But that's the point: All things are NOT equal. The IDH provides a context that at least encompasses the wide-range of phenomenon while the ETH suffers from so many of those "gaping holes" that have been brought up here and elsewhere.

Sure it's fine to cite evolution and the possibility of other planets with a suitable atmosphere and claim scientific superiority, but then here comes all the criteria that negate that.

And who says a dimensional theory is unscientific as opposed to the paradoxes inherent in the ETH? That's silly and I'm not even referencing string theory here. We KNOW there are "dimensions" that fall outside the normal range of our human senses i.e. infrared, x-rays, etc. so one theory is really no better than the other in that sense.

No, the difference is the ability of the two theories to resolve paradox and physics questions. One does that much better than the other.

Why so many different craft??

reply to post by schuyler


Once again... like I said before --- I base my speculation on FTL starships --- because of my Foofighter sighting,[and by other's]; mine being back in 1976. Basically... their are two main theorys on ET visitation here on Earth. One is IDH... the other is ETH. I putting all my cards on the ETH side. I do not believe in the existence of wormhole travel... thus, the only possible alternative, in my view, is that ET craft are capable of superluminal [FTL] speeds; based on the vast distances between star systems. This theory...is probably the only logical alternative, besides wormholes or IDH.

Schuyler --- You can believe what you want to believe, but, I don't believe --- I know --- that ET starships have been visiting our planet, and I've been trying too figure out how Foofighter's tick, ever since my Foofighter sighting.

GUT --- I do not know the correct number of ET alien civilization's that have visited our planet, but I know there is at least one --- or possibly two.

The lighted power sources on alien starcraft, are probably needed as photon fuel, to power the gravitic magnetic photon drive in places where starlight, or the lack of, to power the photon drive is absent. So...it is probably necessary for starships to fuel up with seawater, on planets that have it --- so as to use seawater as fuel for the fusion process to occur between the possible two magnetic shields of the alien starship. The bluish-white plasma phase --- is probably the high speed phase --- the red-orange fiery plasma phase --- is probably the landing or defensive phase; besides scaring the hell out of everybody. Both color phases were witnessed by me, back one night in November of 1976, approx. 40 miles west of Washington D.C.

reply to post by The GUT


I think I might be able to throw some light on this one, as it were, Gut...

Most UFOs are actually one basic model made by the SMAIZZ corporealation in the work shops at "Under the hill yet a lot close than you might imagine"/ That basic model is the so called "Fizza" as the early models use to reek of sulphur at the "drives" they used were powered, in this dimension by breaking down the atoms of methane into plasma. This is where the ancient myths of "demons" being a tad pongy comes from.

The craft were found to be perfectly functional however, many customers were not happy with the constant problems they had with electrical storms cutting their inertia damping out which led to several accidents and the "Fizza" being nicknamed the "Blender". In effect what we see today are a myriad of custom shop designs using the new drive which now has a "clean" fuel, the only side effect being that, it has a tendency to cause humans to start a new religion and write endless books about how they received enlightenment from the Star People of MuMu when in actual fact, they were just tripping of their boxes from the exhaust fumes of a FIZZA mark ii.

These Fizza 2s have what is called a morph finish meaning, one can ,as the brochure puts it,

"The Fiiza Mark ii comes with morphfield finish allowing the customer to customise and adapt the look of their craft to meet the demands of any dimension. From the "crab with a huge laser claw for surfing Shrimp World to the Black Square Box for ultimate ContraBauhaus chic the Fizza Mark ii can meet the most demanding requirments of the modern dimensional traveller

One can also buy various optional morph packs a particular favourite, for many years, being the "Virgin Mary" which travellers to Sol 3 found allowed them to make up any old bollocks and kid the locals into doing the most stupid of things simply cos inhabitants thought they were communicating with someone who looked like someone's, who never actually existed, mother. This Morph pack was eventually banned after a few unfortunate incidents leading to conflict arising from others using the "Allah" pack. As such, all "Sol 3 Deity" packs have now been banned.

I know all of this as it has been channelled to me through my TV from my alien contact who goes by the name of MereDuck, who proved his/her reality to me, by deleting texts from my mobile phone before people had actually sent them

reply to post by The GUT


The flying saucer...probably needs photon sensor ports that funnel photons to the heart of the photon drive, only to be ejected by a revolving thruster port located on outer disc itself. In order to change direction: the photon port is closed --- the thruster is revolved 180 degrees --- photon port opens, for an instant stop --- 90 degrees for right angle turns, etc, etc and top and bottom thrusters for vertical take-off and landings.

Gravity is controlled by the heart of the black hole photon drive itself, negating the effects of inertia, g-forces and the potential for anti-grav properties of the starship itself.

Originally posted by The GUT
Okay, ETH'ers riddle me this. Another aspect that comes up when discussing the ETH and considering the IDH is not only the vast number of anomalous sightings that take place, but the extreme variety of the various "nuts & bolts" craft that have been described.

Why so many different models? Outside of the rather vague "Cigar" it's pretty rare that the same craft is described twice, and when they are it's usually craft that fall into the likelihood of being top secret government craft i.e. the Triangles or else hoaxes.

You first must start by acknowledging that the vast majority of "UFO" sightings are simply a result of failure to identify a prosaic phenomena. So I would propose that we really don't have any certainty over the actual variety of "real ET tech", as opposed to the countless variations reported by observers.

I think that most sightings that are more than "lights in the sky" would fit into the following "general shapes/configurations":
- sphere (usually quite small - maybe just a "probe"
- cigar and cylinder (theorized as larger craft)
- disk/saucer (maybe "shuttle" craft for short distance excursions).

Seen less frequently (and more recently):
- triangle
- boomerang

You have to keep in mind that a lot of "UFO sightings" are influenced by our notions of "alien spacecraft" as seen in popular culture. So even though that "mushroom rock" on the bottom of the Baltic Sea in no way resembles and previously seen UFO, a lot of people immediately thought "alien craft", simply because the "sonar image" bore some passing resemblance to the "Millenium Falcon" - a human invented conception of what a spacecraft might look like.

I think the vast majority "triangle" sightings, are simply misidentifications. In most cases, all the witness sees in three lights. Well, any three lights that are not in a straight line form a "triangle", like DUH!

There are at least a few triangle sightings that seem to be genuine anomalies. I guess they might be ET or human origin - although I think there is no "reverse engineered" ARVs. (Simply no evidence that there exists any present known physics to explain this technology)

But I really have no idea what actual "spaceship designs" may actually have visited this planet. The only real UFO I've seen was shaped like a sphere, and was quite small, so I assume it was probably just a probe of some sort.

Originally posted by The GUT
And who says a dimensional theory is unscientific as opposed to the paradoxes inherent in the ETH? That's silly and I'm not even referencing string theory here. We KNOW there are "dimensions" that fall outside the normal range of our human senses i.e. infrared, x-rays, etc. so one theory is really no better than the other in that sense.

So what are you saying here? The "inter-dimensionals" are actually X-rays? or Radio waves? or maybe just aerial borne aromas?

To my knowledge there are no "entities" that are manifestations of X-rays or radio waves.

Originally posted by The GUTNo, the difference is the ability of the two theories to resolve paradox and physics questions. One does that much better than the other.

Yes. I agree. The ET Hypothesis seems to be much more in line with scientific knowledge and our understanding of the universe. It is certainly less based on speculation and fantasy. (That is not to say that the ETH is proven, just that it seems to be a more believable theory, that is more grounded in real science.)

reply to post by The GUT


Gut --- Granted...that some civilization's might have evolved to a point of going to interdimensional capacity's, but that does not explain how they can get to here or there. If you have a hypothesis on the hows and whys of interstellar travel by interdimensions, please feel free to clue me in. If you have tried to explain this already in this thread, please forgive my shortcomings. I consider myself as a Ufologist and a seeker of the truth. I think that this thread contributes to the science of ETH and IDH as well; and I want to thank-you for an excellent thread.


Cheers,

Erno86

Originally posted by bluestreak53
So what are you saying here? The "inter-dimensionals" are actually X-rays? or Radio waves? or maybe just aerial borne aromas?

No, I'm giving an example of arenas that lie outside normal perception. Seeing how UFOs are so often tied to extreme light phenomenon, however, there might be some concatenation.

To my knowledge there are no "entities" that are manifestations of X-rays or radio waves.

Nor are there any examples of extraterrestrial civilizations visiting our planet in any extant scientific journals as far as I can tell.

There is, on the other hand, a vast number of historical accounts straddling a wide-range of phenomenology that share a multitude of characteristics that suggest, to many, one causation for all.

That causation could very well be something in our subconscious and even possibly related to Jung's theory of the "collective unconscious."

If, on the other hand, it is indeed a reality that is beyond our human perception as of yet, then the historical literature & experience in conjunction with the paradox inherent in the ETH suggests something entirely different than "space men."

Something that continues to outbox and outfox the short, short arms of science up to this point.