Do western people have the right to complain about Muslim people settling in their countries?

Racism has to be the most ill-defined word in the English language. It is used so badly and widely that those who are manipulative have made it into a shield, in some instances a one way shield. It masks all other real and genuine problems, it sends bad feelings underground, making it virtually impossible to address, it's even becoming a big way of making money and the obvious political manipulation. So now that it's so hard to tell what is racist and what is not, those who shout the loudest or are the most readily heard will gain the most.

There is no harm in people complaining and everyone has the right to that, fear of being seen to do wrong has lead people to give too much ground, now it is they who are complaining. Who is wrong here? I have my opinions but I do know that I would feel very embarrassed to ask an already over-generous guest to change decor, beliefs or anything other major for that matter. Maybe I have too much of a conscience?

Race is a matter of genetics, not culture.

Criticising cultural or religious practices is not racism. Those things have nothing to do with race and are a matter of personal conviction, where Race is not.

Thats why criticising race is unjust but debating the rights/wrongs of particular behaviour is not.

The future of human society is at stake, its a battle of ideas not race. The 'race card' is a deliberate misdirection to make people fearful of engaging in debate.

reply to post by cllj7


You complain about English people buying holiday homes in Wales and then defend mass immigration in England.
Wales for the Welsh and England for everyone?

And quite the advocate for Christrian virtues aren't you?

Wales has far more say in the governing of itself than England does, if you are not happy about the situation then change it - pretty simple really - but like a lot of Scots are beginning to realise things aren't necessarly quite as cut and dried as the romantic nationalists would have you believe.

And the accusation that the English are more racist than any other part of the UK is complete bollocks.

I have visited Wales quite a few times for both work and socially and it's no different at all.

I visited a club in Port Talbot and it had a sign up clearly stating that they would not serve Chinese, Indians and Blacks - I have never seen anything like that anywhere else, ever.

You aren't the only one's who have been treat like crap - I live in North East England and we have been shat on and screwed over at least as much as any other part of the UK - it's them and us - you are not unique.

As for your point about Muslims - yes, there are some out and out racists throughout the whole of the UK and racism, whatever shape or form it takes, must be opposed at all times.
But there are genuine concerns about creeping Islamification of the UK.
And there are genuine concerns about the open door immigration policy that allowed literally hundreds of thousands of immigrants into this country who had absolutely nothing positive whatsoever to offer to the development of this country.
And there are genuine concerns about the social engineering exercises that ran / run alongside both.

This country has a lot of issues which need to be addressed with a matter of deep urgency.
These are being compounded by the ongoing onslaught of immigrants from Eastern Europe, Pakistan, India, Somalia and wherever else.

That is not to say that we shouldn't be welcoming immigrants who can help this country to continue to grow and develop and hopefully become something we can ALL be proud of - of course we should - immigrants have contributed much to the UK and it's culture and society.

We should also continue with our long and proud tradition of providing a safe haven for those who are in genuine fear of persecution.

But we should not be allowing every single waif and stray in just because they want to come here.

If we are to address the problems this country has and to move forward in a positive manner to become the caring, just and progressive nation we should and could be then it requires a degree of honesty and openness that few seem willing to display at present.

Simply blaming those damned English for all of these islands woes maybe convenient for those unable or unwilling for some honest self-appraisal etc but it will achieve nothing except churning over yesterdays events and prevents us from moving forward.....and is downright incorrect.

reply to post by justwokeup


I couldn't agree with you more!

Originally posted by LeoStarchild
Being from the US.. I don't really like hearing:

Press 1 for English


Just saying.. learn English ... hell broken English is good enough for me.

I love all people but for gods sake.. if you want to NOT be scolded .. learn the country's native language.

Which language would that be? Because first you would have to determine which native American tribe was here first. America has no official language. That's why you have to push 1 for English.

reply to post by buster2010

The English colonised America.

Hence, English is your official language.

To the winner go the spoils.

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
reply to post by buster2010

 

The English colonised America.

Hence, English is your official language.

To the winner go the spoils.

Wrong America has no official language. English is the language of commerce that's why people think English is the official language. Approximately 337 languages are spoken or signed by the population, of which 176 are indigenous to the area.

We have a tendency in the west to define everything in terms of rights. But that's an example of viewing the world through our particular prisms with respect to morality. We assume human rights trump all, based on a tradition stemming from the enlightenment which embraces separating not just governance, but also individual value in most cases from any religious aspects.

The problem with Muslim immigrants, and the reason why including them in the west is extremely problematic, is at least some strains of their thought explicitly deny this separation. Hadith actively discourages separation of church and state, and the idea that moral law would be based on humanism rather than religion is against both the tradition and doctrine of the religion.

I can speak better to the US example, where we certainly had ethnic enclaves where people had not yet assimilated to the main culture, but it seems to me the difference was that in year past, the leading classes and government had a strong enough idea of what American culture was to set a pathway, and the majority of immigrants who arrived aspired to join within it, that is to say participate in civic society using the common language and accepting the basic premise of our system.

It would be unfair to cast a broad net here and say all Muslims fit into this billing, but I think the state has a reasonable ability to reject the citizenship of those who do not accept that equal political participation for all groups will be welcome in their community. I'm working hard to phrase this in terms of the language of rights to build a foundation for something that is easier to describe in pragmatic terms.

If you start letting your community be surrounded by people who don't share your beliefs, your community will eventually be lost. And I think in our race to be politically correct, we deny this truth.

And speaking again for America, if you've never heard of redlining, looked at how bus routes are drawn in certain cities, or seen why property values are high in some places, you've never really considered all the ways people assert this requirement, even when law stands in the face of the political wisdom that seems to force integration upon people at every turn.

nvm

That's rather the point, isn't it. I don't want to see my culture destroyed by some rabidly intolerant culture founded by a pedophile with a sword. Why should I lay down and die because of something that I had no hand in?

reply to post by cllj7

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
reply to post by buster2010

 

The English colonised America.

Hence, English is your official language.

To the winner go the spoils.

Wrong America has no official language. English is the language of commerce that's why people think English is the official language. Approximately 337 languages are spoken or signed by the population, of which 176 are indigenous to the area.

English is the de facto national language of the United States, with 82% of the population claiming it as a mother tongue, and some 96% claiming to speak it "well" or "very well."

I know people like you like to say the west has no culture and no official language, but that is load of spunk. Some of us won't let Islam just roll on in unprotested.

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by cllj7

 

Do people have the right to be a bunch of bloody bigots?

The answer is a loud NO!

#ing Brits. You're still smarting from the fact that you don't run the world anymore.

But you know what?

No one should at this point because the world is worthless as it is.

How does wanting immigrants to speak the language and respect our laws and culture make you a bigot?

I'm not sure where some of the folks n the thread have gotten the idea the America is without culture or language of it's own. English most certainly is the official language of the U.S., even if there isn't a federal law spelling that out with the force of law behind it. In a land coming to have a law for everything, at least ONE thing doesn't need it yet.

On the state level, numerous states have passed outright laws making the language official, if it makes those who need that feel better. However, the idea that the U.S. has any language other than English is absurd and splitting hairs for what is or isn't "Official" to the point of total absurdity.

Nor is it the least bigoted, in my view, to DEMAND (not ask) that those who live here, learn to speak it. Tourists, short term residents and students are a whole different matter but those who come to live can learn to speak or leave. That's real simple and no less than I'd expect myself if I were the resident of someone else's nation. Learning the language of my new land would be a given and the least I'd expect to be required as pure function.

well yeah
Their countries were stuffed up by their silly beliefs and they want out, so they plan to stuff up western society as well.

reply to post by cllj7

There is one big, fat word that applies here ~ F R E E D O M

There is the freedom to live where one wants and there is the freedom of others to bitch about it.

Don't try to take that right away. This isn't the Middle East.

Europeans and Americans are F R E E to speak their minds.

Do western people have the right to complain about Muslim people settling in their countries?

Yes.

That was easy enough.

Do western people have the right to complain about Muslim people settling in their countries?

Sure, why not? Anyone with free speech can complain about anyone else who comes along and who doesn't mesh with the 'western world freedoms'. If someone comes in and 'lives and let lives' .. then fine. But if they come in .. like in London .. and set up their own Sharia zones which go against the laws of the country .. then that's just wrong and worthy of complaint about. BTW ... don't some muslim countries complain when westerners go to their countries and do 'western things' like a husband and wife holding hands while walking down the street, etc etc ?? Yep.

Originally posted by buster2010
Wrong America has no official language.

Mostly wrong on your part. English is the official language of most states.
It's even the official language of Puerto Rico.
here is the list
These are the states that have English as the 'official language'.

Alabama since 1990
Alaska since 2007
Arizona 2006;
Arkansas since 1987
California since 1986
Colorado since 1988
Florida since 1988
Georgia since 1996
Hawaii since 1978
Idaho since 2007
Illinois since 1969
Indiana since 1984
Iowa since 2002
Kansas since 2007
Kentucky since 1984
Mississippi since 1987
Montana since 1995
Nebraska since 1923
New Hampshire since 1995
North Carolina since 1987
North Dakota since 1987
Oklahoma since 2010
South Carolina since 1987
South Dakota since 1995
Tennessee since 1984
Utah since 2000
Virginia since 1981
Wyoming since 1996
American Samoa
Guam
Northern Mariana Islands
Puerto Rico
U.S. Virgin Islands

Originally posted by nostromo85
I live just a few miles from the oldest Mosque in the U.K. The area around it, Maybury, is so Islamic, that my friend and his family had to leave the area after they decided they didn't want a white british family to live in their area.

And that is the point that the OP seems to have missed.
Unfortunately it's not easy to split religion and culture.
This is nothing to do with assimilated, integrated immigration. In the UK, most people's objections are about the wholescale takeover of entire areas. An Asian colleague told me how they did this - gradually getting rid of white businesses and householders. Whole cities have fallen prey to this. Bradford for example. I defy any white non muslim to go to Bradford and not feel like an alien in their own country. And of course this goes beyond immigration. It's also about the spawning of self segregated communities from within - ie people who were born here, not just 'immigrants'.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Wow... I think FutureThinker pretty well summed up 90% of what I would have wanted to say on this. I'd just add this for my thoughts....

They come to our nation, some of them, and they whine and moan and groan that we must change substantial things to accommodate them. While in the nations they came from, we wouldn't be allowed out of Customs if our passport shows a stamp from other free nations, as just one example. Dare to bring a Bible? Well... Just don't.

Freedom of Expression works fine to the point someone removes your head with a small dull knife. Great folks in a few of those nations.

Comparing to us then? Well.. Complaining about what again??

It's very fair to say America was made by immigrants but it's equally fair to note the immigrant rushes of the late 1800's and early 20th were people aspiring to assimilate and become one with the nation they chose to stake their futures in. They didn't come here to make New Rome or New Dublin. I don't personally care for immigrants of ANY origin who aren't interested in assimilating to our culture after they've come here, if they are here for more than a student or tourist visa.

This is exactly the way I feel.

The US has never catered to the illegal alien until the mexicans swamped us. Not knocking the mexicans at all.... Love them and they are my family. Literally. Lol

What I dont like is being forced to live as their culture defines and learn their language because they are now here. In my state we have little mexicos everywhere.... I mean everywhere. If peoplemofnother cultures come here then by all means, adapt. Why make us adapt to one certain culture when we have never done it before.

We dont speak chinese because the chinese person brought their family. Nor do we speak italian when the italian brought their family here. Lol

It drives me insane because the mexican will come here and be here for years.... Still not know or even try to speak the language. Why is this?

For the hispanics that I know that are in my family never once thought they would come and not speak the language or adapt.

So .... Yeah. Come on over and enjoy the freedom but dont make us have to adapt to where you just came from. Lol