Occupy: A point we possibly need to move on from

reply to post by beezzer


Yes, just leave them homeless, starving, and out in the cold if they can't hack the system. Who cares as long as some people's got theirs, right? SCREW THE POOR!

reply to post by beezzer

I work and hard. Food water shelter are barely accessable medical and education are luxuries outside of my reach. Meanwhile mr.monopoly has a job and a title but he doesnt actually work and he has cajillions that hes making off others suffering. I dont like that.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone
You must have missed this post, snarky-pants.

Life happens. "Spit" happens. I've lost count of the times my wife and I ate once every two day so our kids could eat.
My mantra of personal responsibility didn't come to me while sitting in an Ivory tower. I learned it the hard way.

Personal responsibility also doesn't mean "screw your neighbor".

Hell, I'm just a damned bunny on ATS, bu if you need someting U2U me.

And that goes for anyone.

I'm a conservative. Not an asshole.

Originally posted by jacktherer
reply to post by beezzer

 

I work and hard. Food water shelter are barely accessable medical and education are luxuries outside of my reach. Meanwhile mr.monopoly has a job and a title but he doesnt actually work and he has cajillions that hes making off others suffering. I dont like that.

You don't have to like it.
But what "Mr. Monopoly" does is really none of your concern.

My advice? Ignore Mr Moneypants. Who really gives a siht?

Focus on what is right for your family.

reply to post by beezzer


Thanks for the advice but I do that anyway. That apathetic attitude is the problem ya see now? its not the govt raping us, its our neighbors watching it on tv and doing nothing to stop it. We gotta make some changes. If you wa/t a richer society 'you gotta see me as your brotha instead of two distant strangers'. We are all part of the human family.

reply to post by jacktherer


What part of "ignoring" the weasel-dcikx" did you miss?

I think OP has a good point - that is indeed all I see that gets discussed about it.

I'm afraid individual americans are just going to have to decide to give the corporations they hate as hard a time as possible within the limits of the law.

That said, the LA arrests over sidewalk chalk last night were ridiculous.
Just because some folks from occupy said they were going to a regularly scheduled event did not mean that the police should automatically send 70 riot police to arrest people.

What's that saying about if you go looking for a fight you'll probably find one?

Well ONE person throws a bottle and hits a cop and that was it, time to start shooting rubber bullets and other SUPPOSEDLY non lethal weapons that can kill people into the crowd.

What about we get some sort of return to wisdom?
Wouldn't THAT be a revolution?

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by jacktherer

 

What part of "ignoring" the weasel-dcikx" did you miss?

Im sure you kno w that poem, they came for the jews no one did anything then the blacks the poor etc then they came for me and no one was left to do anything. Ignore it all you want but trust youll notice when he starts tryin to weasel himself up your sphincter and youll feel terrible that you just ignored it because then everyone will be ignoring you. My point was proven, we have apathy at the root of our culture and society and in an increasimgly global communiry this can only lead to disaster.

Originally posted by petrus4

I'm starting to wonder, at this point, how productive this exchange is. I think we simply need to concede the point, that as much as some of us might want it, a confession is not going to be forthcoming.

Fail.

So on the one hand you admit that there is the constant argument between the conservatives and those who support Occupy... everything was good through that little nugget of fact.

Then you destroy your proposed unbiased thread by suggesting that that there is something to "confess".

I support Occupy 100%, I am not a communist, I'm not a capitalist, I'm not a conservative... I would call myself a SENSIBLE HUMAN who recognizes that corruption between corporations and government has led to the widest economic gap in Human history and the implosion of the global economic system.

I don't care what party someone cheer-leads for. The fact that they are cheer-leading for any party proves that their opinion is invalid and they refuse to accept the blindingly obvious.

I'm done with all these threads trying to paint one group as one thing and another group as another. You are all adults, you are all American citizens, and most of you agree that the system is messed up - so stop arguing amongst yourselves and FIX IT!

Your political parties are both owned - fact.
Your social system is breaking down due to economic disparity - fact.
Your political system has failed - fact.
Your fiat currency is crumbling - fact.
Capitalism is dead - fact.
A new method is needed - fact.

I don't care if you're a republican or democrat, left or right, liberal or conservative. Enough with the childish BS, get off your lazy fat asses and do something constructive instead of whining at the people who are actually trying to change things.

You agree on all the important issues, but you let decades old propaganda cloud your opinions of your fellow Americans, and it's getting REALLY old.

My biggest grief with OWS is the fact that they conveniently decided to call themselves the 99% crowd without even asking me if wanted in.
Since I am not rich, why am I lumped in with the Occupy crowd?
Screw them.

Also, I for one don't understand why they feel a need to take a dump whenever and wherever they want.
That's just gross and unsanitary ?

Bottom line, if they don't like the fact that corporations and CEO's keep getting rich, well gosh darn it,
Stop buying their products!

What is so difficult about this concept?

reply to post by Alxandro




For the love of god man i know youre not that ignorant. One guy sh*tting on a cop car doesnt mean we all sh*t on cop cars. Yes thats gross we all know but at the same time the NYPD had it coming and I cant be mad at the guy for doing it especially if he didnt get arrested for it.

reply to post by jacktherer


Nah they're not all like that. Some of them just desecrate the flag and sleep on the sidewalk.

OWS grew out of grassroots dissatisfaction with a patently broken (indeed doomed if it continues in the same vein) system.

As did the Tea Party.

The disconnect comes because the Tea Party (originally at least) recognised that the system was broken because it wandered away from capitalism and the constitution. Becoming a crony corporate federal monstrosity slowly laying the groundwork for full fascism.

OWS members mistakenly think that what we have is capitalism (because the msm calls it that) so conclude that the answer must be something other than capitalism. (Open door to communism).

The fear is that the Tea Party and OWS ever resolve this disconnect (that would be an effective platform for real change).

Those who benefit from the current arrangement must place enormous effort into marketing prejudice and propaganda to stop this happening. It is, you can see the results of this effort manifesting on here and at water-cooler discussions.

reply to post by jacktherer


Please don't push it, I don't feel like googling right now.
It wasn't just one, pal.

...but it's not just about fecal matter, what about the rapes?
What about the diseases?
What about the entitlement mentality?

To quote your hero, "screw them".

reply to post by petrus4

That is what I meant. However, this leads to me making statements where Kali ends up viewing me as the enemy

I told you a million times that I don't. I don't think in terms like that. I call BS when I see it, that's all.

reply to post by beezzer


Anarcho-communism = no government it doesn't really get smaller government than that. While I personally think we are no where near close to that end goal, I think you can agree that shrinking it as much as possible is a mutual desire no? I happen to think that getting rid of everything BUT the Constitution would be a good start to fixing most of our problems. However, if our nation is bound and determined to stick with Capitalism then it absolutely has to come with regulations. That does not need to mean more government, it can mean less but more effective.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by jacktherer reply to post by beezzer

 

That has nothing to do with what occupy is doing. if you hadnt noticed the u.s gov't doesnt really give a fcuk aboubt the constitution. PATRIOT ACT, NDAA, The trespass bill. . .ringin a bell yet?

That's why the Tea Party is focused on the government whileOccupy is irritating Wells Fargo. Join US!

Oh dear. I heard plenty about Occupy protesting those and most especially the NDAA. I haven't heard a peep out the TPM about any of it.

Also just a though... people can be individuals and self sufficient and community oriented all the same time. We need to make sure we produce a society that ensures that getting rich through exploitation doesn't happen.

reply to post by petrus4


When you desire to improve quality of life for the middle or lower classes it always ends with someone being called a communist. It's not communist to want an opportunity in life. The old guard forgets how hard it was for them, and ignores the fact that in these times things are even harder. The older you get, the easier it was, and the better you were.

Right now the state of our country is proving that big brother is doing a poor job of keeping an eye on the upper money. It's not communist to expect real representation from your government.

I told you a million times that I don't. I don't think in terms like that. I call BS when I see it, that's all.

More people need to start doing that and stop allowing politicians to sidestep specific and important problems.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by petrus4

 

That is what I meant. However, this leads to me making statements where Kali ends up viewing me as the enemy

I told you a million times that I don't. I don't think in terms like that. I call BS when I see it, that's all.

All right. I will accept this.

Anarcho-communism = no government it doesn't really get smaller government than that.

Kali, if an anarcho-communist scenario could actually work, I would truthfully want it. As I've said, I've spent time around hippies before; I think I've got a fairly good idea of what such a society would actually feel like to live in, in practice. Spiramirabilis said that when talking about Nimbin, I sounded like Jane Goodall, and truthfully I did to a certain extent, try to view that experience as an (amateur, obviously) anthropologist.

There are two fundamental reasons, however, why it cannot.

a] 4-7% of this planet's population, are inherent, (or primary, as they are called in the literature) neurological psychopaths. They are not motivated by compassion, to a desire for equality like many of the rest of us are. Neurologically speaking, they don't have the capacity for empathy or compassion at all; the required wiring literally isn't there.

There is a particular hormone in the brain, called oxytocin. It's been found to play an instrumental role in childbirth, and the emotional response behind physical nurturing, of every kind. Hugging, sex, you name it. If you look up oxytocin on YouTube, you'll find the man who initially researched it. He said that he was able to study psychopaths, and he found that with virtually all of them, their oxytocin receptivity was zero. They were not susceptible to its' effects at all, and it did not influence their behaviour.

These people also have a completely inverse morality, to what we do. Because they are neurologically incapable of feeling many of the positive emotions that we do, they are only able to derive emotional gratification from a single source; and that is finding ways to justify a belief or feeling that they are superior to everyone else around them. This is the precise opposite of equality, and it is also the reason why they will not tolerate equality. An egalitarian environment, is an environment where psychopaths are unable to obtain the only sense of meaning or satisfaction that is possible for them.

b] The 93-96% (not 99%, as has been claimed) who are not psychopathic, are mostly either incapable, or completely and systemically unwilling, to engage in individual sovereignty, or what Left anarchists know as self-management. This refusal to self-manage is also encouraged as much as possible by the psychopaths, because political hierarchy is one of the primary ways in which the psychopaths derive justification for a sense of superiority.

Self-management is absolutely key to even a working democratic society, let alone an anarchy. If you do not have self-management, you have nothing. Augustus Ceasar's example taught me that the definition of monarchy, is an individual who is willing to take personal responsibility, among an entire civilisation of people who are not.

On this second point, I will concede that the practice of the General Assembly is a genuinely encouraging sign from Occupy, as far as self-management is concerned. However, Occupy as a specific organisation engaging in self-management, is a long way from human society at large doing so; and that is what we must have, if we are to live in anything resembling a free and equitable society.

I do not make these objections in order to troll or cause antagonism. I make them so that they can be identified and acknowledged, so that we can then begin on the path towards finding solutions for them, if such solutions can be found. While I do not advocate euthanasia, incarceration and some form of treatment, is most likely going to need to be an integral element of any functioning or positive future human society, in the case of the psychopaths.

I don't want to kill the psychopaths, when I'm in my more rational state. I really want to help them; but we don't know how to do that yet. We have to study them in order to learn how to help them. In the meantime, the one thing we must do, is gently but extremely firmly remove them from any leadership positions within our society.

Only then can we begin to heal, and possibly have a chance at species survival.

reply to post by jacktherer

its not the govt raping us, its our neighbors watching it on tv and doing nothing to stop it. We gotta make some changes. If you wa/t a richer society 'you gotta see me as your brotha instead of two distant strangers'. We are all part of the human family.

What a load of excrement!

So when you say I need to see my neighbors as “brothers” that means I have to give them money if they are less fortunate than me?

I feel compassion for less fortunate people but I must say the attitude of many who feel OWED my money is the real problem here.

Besides, charity worked fine throughout history. How did people get by before welfare and social programs?? Do you know why charity doesn’t work as well now? It’s not because people are greedy, it’s because there are FAR MORE PEOPLE TODAY with their hands extended looking for a hand out than there used to be.

Originally posted by Kali74
Also just a though... people can be individuals and self sufficient and community oriented all the same time. We need to make sure we produce a society that ensures that getting rich through exploitation doesn't happen.

Unfortunately exploitation and shakey bussiness ethics are considered a requirement for being rich nowadays. If we compare the millionaires of yesteryear to the billionaires of today, there is a measurable degridation in morality and ethics. Morality and ethics have been replaced with propaganda and public relations guys (they're cheaper).

There's a job to end all jobs. A profesional liar! How nice. What's sad is that behind that profesional liar is an entire team of very smart people working to make his lies even more believable. Anyways, that's a tangent for another time.

We as Americans have a right and even a duty to call it like we see it. We have to ensure that these people that are so revered in the media are seen for what they really are. A duty to resist advertising, and make our own choices. We are to blame for the change. That's right, the American people need to hold themselves accountable for letting this happen, and start holding those at the top accountable for their actions.

It's already starting to head that direction. Good on you if you resist the propaganda! If not, lift that head out of the sand and take a look around. The constitution isn't nearly as important as the integrity of the people living under it. Think about that before you roast someone and call them a communist. Propose a course of action that doesn't turn into a communism flame war, or worse a communist state, and stop dividing yourselves.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by petrus4

 

Right now the state of our country is proving that big brother is doing a poor job of keeping an eye on the upper money. It's not communist to expect real representation from your government.

The problem is, that while people don't want violent revolution, and it certainly wouldn't be easy in America at this point, when you are dealing with psychopaths, there really isn't any other answer. The only way we're going to get any kind of non-violent solution to this problem, is if enough of the non-psychopaths within intermediate positions (middle management) within the political/economic hierarchy begin breaking ranks themselves.

Discontent by the ground level population, by itself, on the other hand, is never going to make a lick of difference. The suits can just keep telling the police to beat them up and jail them, ad infinitum. The people can't fight back against the police physically, either; because even if they start to co-ordinate effectively, the police will immediately escalate to full military response.

We need the cops, and more importantly their superiors, to start breaking ranks, as David Icke said. They hold the social balance of power, and if they don't begin to revolt, the civilian population on its' own, has absolutely no chance.

You can dislike it as much as you want. You can hate it, rail against it, and call it morally bankrupt; but the bottom line is, that all political power is ultimately derived from violence. A global monopoly on violence is the exclusive source of the current American government's power.

As a source of political power, virtue is entirely meaningless, and this is more true in contemporary society, than at any other point in human history. It's not about how good you are; it's actually about completely the opposite.

That is why there is such a problem with Occupy (and the Left in general) thinking that holding the moral high ground is important. Nobody with any real power in our current society, cares about that. It's only the common man who cares about Occupy fighting house foreclosures, or starting medical dispensaries. Businesspeople and politicians don't; if anything they view it with contempt, because they consider it to just be money thrown away.