Occupy: A point we possibly need to move on from

reply to post by beezzer




That has nothing to do with what occupy is doing. if you hadnt noticed the u.s gov't doesnt really give a fcuk aboubt the constitution. PATRIOT ACT, NDAA, The trespass bill. . .ringin a bell yet?

reply to post by petrus4

That is what I meant. However, this leads to me making statements where Kali ends up viewing me as the enemy, because I do tend to believe that Communism is something non-American, and largely originated in Europe.

It is un-American and who really cares whether Kali approves?

No offense, Kali, but your opinions hold no more weight than my own.

So you might be able to see now, why I get accused of playing both sides. I genuinely do agree with some of what both sides say. Yes I agree with you that Occupy are largely Communist...it's just that I also agree with Occupiers, that corporate greed is a genuinely serious problem, and that we are wrecking the environment as well. I also, however, tend to agree with you, that Communism isn't the best way to solve those problems.

I think before we criticise Occupy for having adopted Communism to the degree that they have, however, we need to acknowledge that probably the main reason why they've done that, is because after looking around, they probably couldn't see anything else which might provide a solution. I'll admit that I can't.

I think that's true of a lot of people. They're not Marxist because they necessarily want to be. They are simply because that's all they've been taught, so it's all they know.

We do have a lot of things to fix in this country and crony capitalism/corporatism is number one. I tend to believe most of our problems come from DC.

My main problems with Occupy are the solutions they propose and their means of achieving their objectives. We don’t need to throw out our current system of government, we don’t need MORE government, and we don’t need chaos…period! Our system isn’t broken it’s been high jacked!! We need to take it back and make it work the way it was intended rather than the bastardized version we have today.

Originally posted by jacktherer
reply to post by beezzer

 

That has nothing to do with what occupy is doing. if you hadnt noticed the u.s gov't doesnt really give a fcuk aboubt the constitution. PATRIOT ACT, NDAA, The trespass bill. . .ringin a bell yet?

That's why the Tea Party is focused on the government whileOccupy is irritating Wells Fargo.

Join US!

reply to post by beezzer

That's why the Tea Party is focused on the government whileOccupy is irritating Wells Fargo.

Join US!

INDEED, jacktherer…JOIN US in fixing the GOVERNMENT rather than trying to remake the system.

(By the way, if you do join us, please leave the trouble makers at home…they won’t be received well at a Tea Party rally nor will they be allowed to hang around – we police our own )

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by jacktherer
reply to post by beezzer

 

That has nothing to do with what occupy is doing. if you hadnt noticed the u.s gov't doesnt really give a fcuk aboubt the constitution. PATRIOT ACT, NDAA, The trespass bill. . .ringin a bell yet?

That's why the Tea Party is focused on the government whileOccupy is irritating Wells Fargo.

Join US!

So irritating, i wish they would irritate me.

reply to post by petrus4



Its not about communism... It about the system we have not working. That does not make it communist by default. Both of these are failed systems. We need something different.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by beezzer

 

That's why the Tea Party is focused on the government whileOccupy is irritating Wells Fargo.

Join US!

INDEED, jacktherer…JOIN US in fixing the GOVERNMENT rather than trying to remake the system.

(By the way, if you do join us, please leave the trouble makers at home…they won’t be received well at a Tea Party rally nor will they be allowed to hang around – we police our own

)

edit on 13-7-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

b
Remode ol ing the current system to put it simply is just the easy way out because people have grown up in it and can see it can work if run by moral and just people. However we must remember that the way the system was 'designed' to work was designed by a pack of mostly wealthy racist white male slave owners with an obvious bias towards. We need a system truly designed by the people, ALL people regardless of race, gender, religion or any of that. I agree the original u.s constitution is a good starting point but this system wasnt designed with my best interests at heart. Because im not really white id have been a slave in 1776 and I dont dig that or the system that rose around that turmoil. Join US create a new model, one that has the interest of ALL people at heart, one designed by people from all walks of life. We have our issues admitadly but you cant change us from the outside
and definitely not from behind a keyboard and computer screen. Plus we could use some nonviolent pollicing sometimes

reply to post by jacktherer


Same here, pumpkin. But the past is the past. I judge by character, not by colour. (MLK)

America under the Constitution is brilliant because it guarantees equal oppourtunity, not equal outcome.

At this point, I dont care if the pea brains decide to call me a communist, But i want my free market society to be working properly, unhinged, bought, rigged, and manipulated, by those with the power and resources to do so. That is not what we have. SO, we can ignore it, or take means to prevent it.

It should seem more blatant that this is going on when the people in DC who could decide these rules basically shy away from the idea the more their pockets are lined with $$$ from these interests. It should be APPARENT that they are merely employed puppets of these corporations, and are no longer working for us.

What do you call a system thats broken? Thats not communism is it? But it certainly is not Democracy either. So we can sit here decide-ding which hat to put on, while every other country is wising up to the greed thats derailed our system.

We will be the example to other democracies around the world, of what not to do

reply to post by beezzer


I absolutely agree.

Of course, no amount of personal responsibility can counteract the last 30 years in which US worker productivity has increased 4 fold while baseline wages have remained flat, or the lopsided "free-trade" agreements entered into by Clinton and Bush, or the general trend of outsourcing, off-shoring, and other globalization events which have weakened American manufacturing by more than 80% since 1981, or....

Well, you get the point. There has been a coordinated effort by certain groups to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. No amount of "personal responsibility" will ensure that there are enough chairs for even the hard workers, so long as all chair arrangements are handled by politicians who are beholden to large donations (and reelections) rather than those they are constitutionally bound to represent.

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by petrus4

 

Its not about communism... It about the system we have not working. That does not make it communist by default. Both of these are failed systems. We need something different.

Agreed. Communism failed in the ussr, socialism is failing in europe, capitalism is failing in the us, fascism failed everywhere, anarchism even failed in zuccotti. we need something new. Viva la revolution

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by petrus4

 

That is what I meant. However, this leads to me making statements where Kali ends up viewing me as the enemy, because I do tend to believe that Communism is something non-American, and largely originated in Europe.

It is un-American and who really cares whether Kali approves?

I actually do. Her namesake is someone I'm close to, you might say.

My main problems with Occupy are the solutions they propose and their means of achieving their objectives. We don’t need to throw out our current system of government, we don’t need MORE government, and we don’t need chaos…period! Our system isn’t broken it’s been high jacked!! We need to take it back and make it work the way it was intended rather than the bastardized version we have today.

I agree with that.

reply to post by 0zzymand0s
The last thing I want to do is derail this thread, but. . . . .

Personal responsibility isn't a mantra, but a mindset and an approach when dealing with government.

MY personal responsibility?
Saving; because I will not rely on my military retirement (government) nor will I rely on social security (government).
Food; because I will not be a slave to what the store has to offer, I stockpile, store.
Medical; I'm lucky as my wife is an RN but we also network with like-minded MD's for injuries etc.
Housing; as soon as possible, I'll have my home, bought with cash and just have to deal with taxes.

It starts at home.
Then you can apply it locally, then wider.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by jacktherer

 

Same here, pumpkin. But the past is the past. I judge by character, not by colour. (MLK)

America under the Constitution is brilliant because it guarantees equal oppourtunity, not equal outcome.

Thats beautiful and im glad you feel that way but dood those in power dont. The problem is less limited to race than it was in the past. Today its more about class and as long as we allow those we 'elect' to remain in power we fail and deserve our lashes. Yeah Impeach.clinton for balancing the budget while he got his chimi changad but let bush wipe his arse with the constitution for TWO TERMS and then blame obama for bushes failures. None of those in the us. Govt are to be trusted with running it. That is why I occupy direct democracy in local communities does work. The community gets together and decides what needs to be done and what needs to be allocated to whom. The problem is expanding that model with a community as vig as, say, NYC. Help us make a model that works. Representative democracy does not.

reply to post by beezzer


I say this with not a hint of irony or malice, but -- I am thrilled for you, and have nothing but respect for your views on this.

However -- as a guy who has seen 3 jobs with 3 major corporations off-shored since 2003, while supporting a wife who was injured OTJ and rendered unable to work for more than 5 years, I gotta tell you:

If wishes were horses, we'd have steak tonight too.

Personal responsibility only works when the playing field is at least "level enough." When the whole thing is on tilt, one disaster will eat your savings, and 2 will break even the most responsible. Not that I am laying claim to that title, because I *know* I could have / still could "do better."

reply to post by beezzer




Again this is why we are social/cultural and not political. We need a paradigm shift in the way we think about and approach society. See at this point in history food water and shelter are not your responsibility. The big four banks have over $400 trillion! Can you even fathom that number? Thats enough to make every single citizen of the u.s a TRILLIONAIRE! And still have some left over. My point being that the resources are out there to make sure EVERYONE has access to quality food, water, shelter, medical care and education. Its the greedy.that prevent this from happening.

reply to post by jacktherer
It starts locally then spreads. It also takes time. The Tea Party has made mistakes. But we've learned from them.

We get the right people in, the no amount of Wall Street can manipulate.

The system works.

We just need to gear it BACK to when it worked for us.

reply to post by beezzer




It hasnt ever worked for us, ask the hopi, the cherokee, the taino.

Originally posted by 0zzymand0s

Personal responsibility only works when the playing field is at least "level enough." When the whole thing is on tilt, one disaster will eat your savings, and 2 will break even the most responsible. Not that I am laying claim to that title, because I *know* I could have / still could "do better."

Life happens. "Spit" happens. I've lost count of the times my wife and I ate once every two day so our kids could eat.
My mantra of personal responsibility didn't come to me while sitting in an Ivory tower. I learned it the hard way.

Personal responsibility also doesn't mean "screw your neighbor".

Hell, I'm just a damned bunny on ATS, bu if you need someting U2U me.

And that goes for anyone.

I'm a conservative. Not an asshole.

Originally posted by jacktherer
reply to post by beezzer

 

Again this is why we are social/cultural and not political. We need a paradigm shift in the way we think about and approach society. See at this point in history food water and shelter are not your responsibility. The big four banks have over $400 trillion! Can you even fathom that number? Thats enough to make every single citizen of the u.s a TRILLIONAIRE! And still have some left over. My point being that the resources are out there to make sure EVERYONE has access to quality food, water, shelter, medical care and education. Its the greedy.that prevent this from happening.

Who cares???

I mean, they could have acajillion, big whoop.

Medical, food, water, shelter, education IS UP TO YOU!!!!!

You CAN be the captain of your own Destiny!!!

Take charge and gt what you want. It may take work, but by god, you can make it happen.