The Bright and Morning Star "Mary" Queen of Heaven and husband Allah

reply to post by teamhair


Do you really buy that junk with all those clouds and flying greek pagan baby cupids (Eros), you would think they were in heaven, that painting screams everything but holy. I think that painting looks exactly like what it's meant to look like. Nimrod, Semiramis and baby Tammuz. I was born at night but it wasn't last night, someone else might buy that story but i do not because i study symbolism, archeaology and ancient mythologies.

reply to post by Murgatroid


Why don't we cut through everything extraneous to the discussion of Alberto Rivera and discuss the man himself. I have the feeling that if you and I were to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of the Catholic Church, we would be here all day.

Alberto River made some extraordinary claims. As we know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. To the best of my knowledge, Mr. River offered no proof of his claims at all, let alone extraordinary proof.

If you can substantiate some of his claims, it would be appreciated. Let's start out at the beginning of his claimed work. He supposedly infiltrated hundreds of God fearing Church's and acted as an agent provocateur while also obtaining 8 graduate degrees, all but one being doctorates (it may have been 7, I'm going from memory here). This was, I believe, before the age of 25 or so. Can you explain this chronology?

He also claimed to have gathered much of his information from reading secret texts in the Vatican archives from the Middle Ages. Mr. Rivera wasn't able to read or write Latin. Can you explain this?

Mr. Rivera claimed to rescue his sister from a convent in London. There's no record of his sister ever being there or being a nun. Can you explain this?

Mr. Rivera claimed that the Vatican tried to have him killed by: poison, arson, shoving him in front of a moving train, shooting him multiple times, feeding him ground glass and having his Jesuit dentist infect one of his teeth in the hopes that the infection would grow to the brain and kill him. Do you think that these stories are credible?

As you are concerned that any naysayers are Catholic stooges, do you believe that Rand Winburn and Donald Blanton are pro-Catholic?

Eric

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Ok, thanks.

Eric

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Typ, you certainly have lived up to your moniker here in this thread. I was about to take hostages.

I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

In the Hebrew text of Isaiah 14:12 it says "O how thou art fallen from heaven, Heylel ben Sachar, son of the morning..."

The morning begins when the moon appears according to Jewish reckoning

Yeah see i know when the jewish morning begins at dusk but damn I honestly never thought about the moon rising in their mornings. That feels ass backwards to me. Puts an entirely different spin on things.

The devil is in the details. *pun intended*

Islam and Catholics are similar yes, so are all the abrahamic faiths. Islam regard Mary most high, thus the unity between islam and catholics. Islam has surat Mariam, to acknowledge her, which catholics see as respect, in return Town of Fatima was born named after Prophet Mohammeds daughter.

To me its always been islam and catholics vs christianity and jews, but at the same time all being controlled by the same source. Battle of wealth, resources and power. That is your beast.

And BTW what makes Christianity safe? Knowing they are just part of the ploy.

Why did jesus let all this happen? (i Bet youll blame it on the devil)

Good read anyways..

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Murgatroid

 

I wouldn't even use the word God because that is another form of the name Gad, the name of the semitic deity called Fortune. Meni is Destiny.

Isaiah 65:11

11 “But you are those who forsake the Lord,
Who forget My holy mountain,
Who prepare a table for Gad,
And who furnish a drink offering for Meni.

Gad is Fortune and Meni is Destiny, but Destiny has other names such as Nebo or Inanna.

Better to just say Elohim "Strong One" and avoid using the other names. This crap goes so deep it's goign to be tough extricating ourselves from it.

You know the true name of god and still play around with duality? ONE the name and the nature of god. In the end when all is said and done and experiansed: There is only ONE, and have always only been ONE, and always will only be ONE.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Hey Lonewolf!

Since you are constantly bringing up the fact that no one is addressing your original post, I thought I'd do so. I'm sorry, but your 7 months or whatever of research has been almost completely wasted.

First off, it is a bit intellectually dishonest to show random images and image macros with no references and explanations, and then make claims about them. Heck, when EricD asked you about one of them, you had to tell him plainly that you had no idea. This doesn't seem like 7 months of research well spent.

Anyhow, I am sure you know my area of expertise, so you know what I'll be focusing on. Considering the biased nature of the sources, I'm sure the Catholic side of stuff is equally false, but I'm sure someone with better knowledge of that can handle that, so I'll mostly ignore it. I'll be providing sources for every claim I make, but if I am countering one of your claims, obviously, I cannot provide a sourced reference to a negative (if you say "sometimes the sun rises in the north", while I can find many sources that say the sun rises in the east, and maybe even some that say it may possibly have, or in the future will rise in the west, obviously I am not going to find a source that says "The sun DOESN'T rise in the north"), so it'd be on you to provide a reference for that. For matters of Islamic belief, I'll refer to the Islamic scripture and unless you provide another reference from the same scripture, you can't really contradict that. I hope you understand that providing a reference to some Christian scholar of Islam, who almost certainly has a point to grind against islam, is not an accurate rebuttal of a reference to the Islamic scriptures themselves. For historical matters I'll go to other references, unless the scripture is relevant there.
So. To begin:

In Islam Allah is the "King of Heaven"

It is a bit deceitful to put it like that, no? Sure, in Islam, Allah is the "King of Heaven", but there is no such exclusive title anywhere in the texts. The closest you can get is one of his titles being "King" or "Lord" and the use of "Lord of the Heavens and the Earth" (رَبِّ السَّمَاءِ وَالْأَرْضِ from Surah 51:23 if you want the arabic for some reason). As an exclusive title, "King of Heaven" is a LOT more closely associated with Christianity than with Islam.

according to archeaological artifacts found a moongod

False again, but since you go into greater detail on this point later, I'll get to it later.

what we have is a crescent moon symbol for Allah

Excusemewhat?!
Where on earth did you get the idea that the crescent moon is a symbol for Allah? Sorry, absolutely false, and ridiculous.
See, this is the problem with so much discussion on here. People jump at superficialities without even looking into them, and then no matter how many times someone proves them wrong, they just keep going on with them, because it is easier to parrot pre-built thoughts and word-groups than critically think on anything.
In no sense could the crescent moon be considered a symbol for Allah. If one were ignorant, they could think it is a symbol for Islam (they'd still be wrong), but it is certainly not a symbol for God (Surah Al-Baqara(2), verse 189, Surah Al-Hajj(22) verse 18, and Surah Fussilat(41) verse 37). Trying to put symbols for God is what leads towards idolatory (see christian veneration for the cross), which Islam is very strongly against. There are absolutely no symbolic or pictorial representations of God.
Islam has no reference to or requirement for crescent moon symbolic representation. The Crescent moon was a symbol of the Byzantians, from who the Turks supposedly took it as their symbol. Read "TURKS", Not Muslims/Islam. The fact that the Ottoman Empire ruled most of the "muslim world" is the reason for the preponderance of the crescent moon symbol in the muslim world, not any Islamic injunction (source).

Next you show a number of images. The one I want to call attention to is the one that starts with "Allat the Triple Moon Goddess". First off, I really would like a reference to where this picture is from and what on earth it is, because it looks like a badly done photoshop to me. Where was the image on the left found? Where was the image on the right found?
Secondly, and I'm sorry for shattering your carefully constructed list of similarities, but Allat was the Goddess of the Underworld (VolIII, ChapII, pg124 and pg218- of History of Egypt, Chaldea, Syria, Babylonia and Assyria by Gasto Maspero, and VolI, Chap1, §6, pg83 of A History of Art in Chaldæa & Assyria by Georges Perrot & Charles Chipiez (t. Walter Armstrong)). Had nothing to do with "triple moons", whatsoever.

Stone idol of Allah discovered at an archeaological dig site in the M.E. , notice the crescent moon in his chest?

Now we come back to the point you made earlier. Your image, which again is not referenced, but since I have encountered it numerous times in discussions with the ridiculous "moon-god" theory, I know it is from the works of Robert Morey, probably culled from the secondary source of bible.ca. Robert Morey, by the way, has been totally outed as a quack. His website claims he got a DD and a PhD in Islamic studies from Faith Theological Seminary and Louisiana Baptist University, neither of which offer any such degree. In fact, Faith Freedom publicly denied ever giving him any degree, and LBU is an unaccredited university that is a known degree mill (mentioned in Steve Levicoff's Name It and Frame It?: New Opportunities in Adult Education and How to Avoid Being Ripped Off by 'Christian Degree' Mills). Outside of academics, Robert Morey was pastor at Faith Community Church in California, before he was thrown out due to immoral behaviour involving church money.
Anyhow, apologies for that digression, I just wanted to point out where your information is coming from. Lets look into the history of that statue for a bit, yes? The text in your image says "History proves that before Islam came into existance, the Sabeans in Arabia worshipped the moon-god who was married to the sun-goddess". This is irrelevant, and for that matter, not even true. What have the Sabeans (who were from the region now known as Yemen, so kinda irrelevant to any discussion about Allah being the moon-god) got to do with anything? Also, the Sabeans worshipped Ilmaqah, who was a sun god as well as many other astral deities (All of The Old South Arabian Religion by Jacques Ryckmans).
As for the statue excavated in Hazor, there is no consensus it is a deity of any kind. Yigael Yadin who was the one who conducted the excavation, said it was a "Basalt statue of deity or king from the stelae temple" ( VolII, pg476, Encyclopedia Of Archaeological Excavations In The Holy Land by Michael Avi-Yonah), while others say "It depicts a man, possibly a priest, seated on a cubelike stool. He is beardless with a shaven head; his skirt ends below his knees in an accentuated hen; his feet are bare. He holds a cup in his right hand, while his left hand, clenched into a fist, rests on his left knee. An inverted crescent is suspended from his necklace." ( pg107, Treasures Of The Holy Land: Ancient Art From The Israel Museum (Ed. J. P. O'Neill)).
So sorry, nothing about Allah here.

As for the picture you posted of the Black Stone, again, I fail to see the reference. It is believed to be a meteorite, and has nothing to do with any crescent moon or star. Muslims certainly don't worship it (Volume 2, Kitab al-Hajj (Book 26), Number 667 ).
Then you also quote a passage and claim

This is an old excerpt from an older Quran

Again, sorry, but there is no "older Quran" from which this is an exerpt. You won't find any such thing at all. The verses refer to the controversial (and what most consider inauthentic -due to broken chains of narration and other issues). Whatever your opinions on the satanic verses incident, however, to claim that what you quoted is from an "older Quran" is complete BS, because the Quran wasn't even completed by the time this incident is alleged to have taken place, and even according to the story, it was "corrected" almost immediately. If there is any shred of truth in this claim of yours, I'd be very interested in seeing the source of this claim of an "older Quran".


So there you have it. Each and every one of your points proven wrong or invalidated, AND with references. I'll be most interested in hearing your response to these points, and what sort of references and sources you use.

reply to post by apushforenlightment


We know there is one. The Shema (Deut. 9:6) is still in effect.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


My apologies, but yes I am still stumped. Flaming lion, and his signature? This could be one of many religions. In my opinion....

And so it begins..

I knew last night when I lay down for bed that the counter-attack would be launched today.

Originally posted by anonomorphic
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

My apologies, but yes I am still stumped. Flaming lion, and his signature? This could be one of many religions. In my opinion....

"Lion of the Tribe of Judah"


YHVH = "behold the nail, behold the hand", or in other words.. " behold the nailed hand".

reply to post by Murgatroid

'aided by Chick publications'. :shk: Enough said.
What a bunch of hoooooooeeeeey. Chickies ... ugh.
And you people proudly display that you read this bunk?

Originally posted by anonomorphic
Mr. Lone Wolf, What religion do you subscribe to? What is your label?

He has admitted to being a Baptist Missionary in other threads.
Kinda explains things ... doesn't it??

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
I know about the death cookie, i call it the "Jesus cookie" because according to the "clergy" it's supposed to be able to speak and all that baloney. No telling what they do to that thing before people eat it, they could be pissing on it the night before for all they know. .

:shk: Seriously dude .. what's wrong with you? You don't know anything about The Eucharist. And this crap you are pumping out is just that .... crap. My god .. get educated. It's not a 'death cookie' .. and it doesn't talk ... and no one pisses on it the night before ... and THE MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist.

What the Catholics REALLY believe about The Eucharist

YOU ARE WRONG.

First of all, we do not have the same origin. The idea, that we do is so preposterous ...

The idea of one origin, is the gospel of the Warlord who is telling his disciples that the "others" are blind, and have strayed away from the path ... and need to be brought into the herd, for their own good. What better way, to conquer the world, than to create a fals book of Mormon, that tells you this and that, and justifies to you to take away peoples land and home.

This is a complex scenario ... to conquer, you first need to break their spirit. What better way to break their spirit, than to have them believe they don't have their own roots ...

Finally, they'll end up like the Indians, in reservations ... and ultimately, they'll end up like the Chinese and the Mongols. Are you absolutely sure, that the Chinese aren't Genghis Cahn descendants? ... or was it Genghis Chan and the Mongols that got "swallowed" by Chinese genes?

Muslims are told to have many children, and we in the North are getting decadent ... and are slowly disappearing from the earth. The only question that matters, is ... does it matter, who inherits the earth? Is diversity that important?

reply to post by FlyersFan


"Aided by Chick Publications Enough said.."

Circumstantial ad hominem fallacy. ^^^ With a poisoning the well fallacy right after, tossed in for good measure.

reply to post by Murgatroid


Murgatroid,

Just because Muslims fight those who insult Islam does not make them less enlightened.

Muslims fight for the cause of God, you insult God, your Creator and we defend him from the likes of you. So you think you are more enlightened than these people, when you fight for idolatry, for power and money and only God knows what else it is you fight for. We fight for God, what is more noble and more enlightened than that? The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom... you think you know something but without knowledge of Your creator that knowledge means nothing.!

Originally posted by queenofangels_17

Just because Muslims fight those who insult Islam does not make them less enlightened.

Muslims fight for the cause of God, you insult God, your Creator and we defend him from the likes of you. So you think you are more enlightened than these people, when you fight for idolatry, for power and money and only God knows what else it is you fight for. We fight for God, what is more noble and more enlightened than that? The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom... you think you know something but without knowledge of Your creator that knowledge means nothing.!

I thought Muslims were only supposed to fight in physical self defense, not those who insult Islam or the Creator.

There are ways of defending God without using the sword. The sword is only supposed to be used for physical self defense.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


you should do a bit more research, my friend.

"the morning star" = venus.

venus does not = "allah".

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
Catholics do not believe Mary is part of the Trinity. The Trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
en.wikipedia.org...

Fatima is Muhammad's daughter.
en.wikipedia.org...

Tell that to whoever commissioned this painting to be installed in a Vatican church.

Apparently they didn't get that memo.

edit on 11-7-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Teamhair explained the picture:

That is a painting of St. Bernard. It refers to a legend that Mary's milk was squirted into his eye to cure a disease in it. According to catholicism, Mary is able to cure him, not in her own right, but through the power of the Christ child on her lap. Alternatively it may be an image of a dream that he had where breast milk is sprinkled on his lips as a blessing of wisdom. Kind of odd to our modern eyes but it has to be looked at in the context of medieval mysticism and art.*

Lactating Virgins were not about any sort of divinity for Mary but rather emphasised her humanity and humbleness. It's all about context - a noblewoman of the time would not lower herself to breast feed her child, that is what wet nurses were for. She was seen, not as a god, but as an intermediary - she is, on this reading, wholly human, but with a special relationship with her child, who is God. It is exactly this symbolism of a very human Mary and a far too human, breast feeding, Christ that eventually contributed to these types of images falling into disfavour - not to mention a more recent identification of the breast with sex and immodesty. Oh, and looking at the top of the image (I see rays coming from "heaven"), I think you will find that the trinity is indeed represented, just not the way you think it is...

The symbol of woman and / or mother and child is a powerful and enduring one of feminine principles, power (good and evil), fertility and nurturing found in most, if not all, cultures (as is sun and moon worship of some sort if you go back far enough). It is hardly surprising that these things did not get thrown out when new belief systems came along - it doesn't need any sort of conspiracy to explain it. In fact, it might even be argued that the enduring images of the virgin and mother and child in the catholic church are in some ways a reaction against the church's patriarchy and demonisation of the feminine. The church claimed, incorporated and tamed these traditions (into a compliant mother in this case) as it did many local beliefs, because it was not just going to go away. If you can’t beat ‘em... Not saying you have no conspiracy but this image is not representing what you claim, except possibly in a derivative, artistic trope kind of way.

In fact, although this particular image is not medieval, it is a later interpretation of earlier medieval art and story - St. Bernard was a medieval abbot and you will find that medieval images of the same scene are a far richer sources of symbology. You have, perhaps accidentally, picked an image not of a a veiled representation of a pagan triple godhead but of a VERY powerful man. He was intimately associated with the Knights Templar, wrote the first rules of that order, and was known as the 'pope maker' due to his influence in their selection. He was looked to for advice and legitimacy by popes and kings. Legends aside, receiving milk from the virgin, alongside Christ, talks about the very real, earthly power of a a particularly powerful man, not a god.

Here is another picture very similar to the one you posted.

La lactation de Saint Bernard



and a different picture of same with title
www.mutualart.com...

I pray you have the humility to acknowledge your error at least to yourself.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

 

the other nuggets are more esoteric, for example pauls reference to astral projection,and require some serious study of the cabala
[not the stuff madonna and other celebs are hawking], the occult, history; both orthodox and secret, comparative mythology and religion

I can't meditate or do any of that stuff, everytime i try to and close my eyes i fall asleep so i gave up with the meditation.

Persist. Because all this that you're talking about is the codings and outright nonsense of the mystery school. Literally you have to stay clear and even the language is coded so you have to say, according to the intentions of my heart, my definition. And renounce all their codes. Its only the Highest Love and Goodness in Existence, and the symbolic Christ, real or metaphor, in that he and budda have some good directions, examples. You don't want any religion. The Highest Love and Goodness, what is true, what is Love and Family, that is it. Until you remember in your soul don't go with any of the fanatical religious sects or packs.

For meditation, you are connection to your Soul and answers, to your Source as well and answers, Source being your Higher Self but also the Family, and Prime Creator, or all that is Love and Goodness on the Highest Levels.

Falling asleep is nothing. Don't worry about it at all. I do it often, it seems that just when I reach a level or see something, its lights out. In other words, the corner of the veil is lifted, then I don't get to remember what apparently was reached, but when I wake up, I feel really good and very inspired and answers have been coming. That is also meditation.

But you're using hemisync or theta, delta anything that joins all the hemispheres up, you're helping your own phone line home.