A quote from the civil war, before it ended. You all should read this.

reply to post by RealSpoke


Jinx.

Gods southern sympathists have been trying to use that one for ages.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by petrus4

 

You think men were incapable of seeing the potential and equality in blacks at the time? Lincoln was far from "broad-minded" on the subject. He though black people were lesser beings and said so, he freed the slaves to hurt the south econimically only (he never felt as if he was freeing his fellow men). It also served as great way to contiuosly denounce the south.

You misunderstand the poster. What he is saying is that it is easy for you to sit back and judge, but you need to judge Lincoln's racism within the context of the time. Compared to others of his time, Lincoln was liberal in his racial views. Hell, look at Margrett Sanger who founded Planned Parenthood. She wanted birth control specifically to control the black population. This was a few decades after Lincoln.
People are a product of their environment and you only think the way you do because of what you have been exposed to.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by Castillo

So how'd you find out about it then?

edit on 9-7-2012 by Castillo because: (no reason given)

Its called History, you should check it out, it will make you not ask such Dumb Questions.

Bwahahaha...
History!
Good one. ;-)

Slavery was not the primary cause of the civil war, we are told it was today, because the Union wants everyone to think the values in the Confederacy are are wicked as slavery itself.

Consider this quote:

“I was raised by one of the greatest men in the world. There was never one born of a woman greater than Gen. Robert E. Lee, according to my judgment. All of his servants were set free ten years before the war, but all remained on the plantation until after the surrender.”

William Mack Lee (Robert E. Lee’s black servant)


Does this sound like a man who would lead an army for the purpose of slavery?


This quote is probably more accurate:

“I love the Union and the Constitution, but I would rather leave the Union with the Constitution than remain in the Union without it.”

Confederate President Jefferson Davis

this is really great read succint and telling! you should create a thread out of this as it truly sums up far too much of what america has come to. everyone should read this and at least have chance to understand what american politics has unfortuantely reduced itself to.

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


this link should have been with the post above but i screwed up and deleted it

I don't know much bout the civil war but that dont sound civil

Originally posted by xstealth
“Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late… It means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision… It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.”


Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864

The version of history i learned painted the North as traitors to america's freedoms and the rights of states to govern themselves within their own borders. Lincoln, was the U.S. first dictator. In the aftermath of the Civil war, the South was occupied like an enemy territory. During the war Union soldiers raped southern women, burned farms to the ground, stole southerners food and any other goods that were useable. Despite what the history books will tell you now the south did have blacks fighting for it. The South freed many slaves and granted them land if they would fight for the south and many did. History is always written by the victor, but sometimes there are people who have not forgotten the truth and the memory lives on.

Make sense, but the south must have more slaves than the north, since the farming activity was more fertile in the southern area with warmer climate.

And history books always says, Lincoln and the north were anti toward slavery! Over-simplified black and white kiddie-facts used, as always But everyone ate the bait.

So the south were richer, and the north wanted to force them into submission, through Lincoln dictated federal (trade) law! Make sense, nice thread OP

Sometimes I wondered what Lincoln's motives were to wage a bloody and costly war with his southern " American brothers" to free the black people? Sounds too good? History tells us he was a man with messianic visions & intent. Seems like he was a false one, like most of them are.

But the war then became "moraly acceptable", when the north used "Humanism" to legitimate its cause. Very sneaky, and perhaps very well planned also.

Originally posted by Advantage
Lincoln.. the Father of Big Government.

Mistakenly many believe the CW was about Slavery and abolition. Nope. It was about money, the South was by far more rich than the North due to the climate.. and as the above person stated.. states rights. Lincoln established the grossly bloated Federal hydra we have today.

More like George Washington, who crushed freedom right at the start.

Whiskey Rebellion

Pay close attention here, at the time there were no taxes upon the populace's product directly, and they wanted to fund the govt's spending sprees and couldn't raise import duties any higher, so went after whiskey.

People all over revolted, they created a draft, and conscripted civilians, filled their head with lies or whatever, and sent them off to actually oppress their fellow Americans and shake them down for money, just like the British had done with the Stamp Act (1765) or the Townshend Acts.

A source of government revenue was needed to pay the bond holders to whom the debt was owed. By December 1790, Hamilton believed import duties, which were the government's primary source of revenue, had been raised as high as was feasible.[4] He therefore promoted passage of an excise tax on domestically distilled spirits.This was to be the first tax levied by the national government on a domestic product.[5] Although taxes were politically unpopular, Hamilton believed the whiskey excise was a luxury tax that would be the least objectionable tax the government could levy.[6] In this, he had the support of some social reformers, who hoped a "sin tax" would raise public awareness about the harmful effects of alcohol.[7] The whiskey excise act, sometimes known as the "Whiskey Act", became law in March 1791.[8] George Washington defined the revenue districts, appointed the revenue supervisors and inspectors, and set their pay in November 1791.[9]

The big Federalist moneybags came along and figured a way to use the Government Regulations to run the small businessman out of town:

Small farmers also protested that Hamilton's excise effectively gave unfair tax breaks to large distillers, most of whom were based in the east. There were two methods of paying the whiskey excise: paying a flat fee or paying by the gallon. Large distillers produced whiskey in volume and could afford the flat fee. The more efficient they became, the less tax per gallon they would pay (as low as 6 cents according to Hamilton).

Small distillers believed Hamilton deliberately designed the tax to ruin them and promote big business, a view endorsed by some historians.[15] However, historian Thomas Slaughter argued that a "conspiracy of this sort is difficult to document".[16] Whether by design or not, large distillers recognized the advantage the excise gave them, and they supported the tax.[17]

Go check out that wiki, it's absolutely mind blowing.

Militia was called up from New Jersey, Maryland, Virginia, and eastern Pennsylvania. The federalized militia force of 12,950 men was a large army by American standards of the time: the army that had been with Washington during the Revolutionary War had often been smaller.[85] Because relatively few men volunteered for militia service, a draft was used to fill out the ranks.[86] Draft evasion was widespread, and conscription efforts resulted in protests and riots, even in eastern areas. Three counties in eastern Virginia were the scenes of armed draft resistance.[87] In Maryland, Governor Thomas Sim Lee sent 800 men to quash an antidraft riot in Hagerstown; about 150 people were arrested.[88]

It was a widespread chaotic period, apparently.

Although older accounts of the Whiskey Rebellion portrayed it as being confined to western Pennsylvania, there was opposition to the whiskey tax in the western counties of every other state in Appalachia (Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia).[28] The whiskey tax went uncollected throughout the frontier state of Kentucky, where no one could be convinced to enforce the law or prosecute evaders.[29]

So who here thinks Alexander Hamilton and George Washington were great Americans when they instituted that draft to force Americans to bring guns against their neighbors to shake em down for $$$ to pay back that debt they owed to our financiers?



Just saying...Old Abe was just another name in the long list of unending tyranny of man over man.

Will we ever learn a better way?

reply to post by Castillo


Nevermind. Mod took care of it.

reply to post by FissionSurplus


How about you show a real source for this quote? Or is this yet another "rewritting of history" just like the NAZIS have been trying to claim the Holocaust never happened and made up their own lies?...

Originally posted by Advantage
Lincoln.. the Father of Big Government.

Mistakenly many believe the CW was about Slavery and abolition. Nope. It was about money, the South was by far more rich than the North due to the climate.. and as the above person stated.. states rights. Lincoln established the grossly bloated Federal hydra we have today.

The Feds was established by PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS in 1913... not by Lincoln...

...
In his first term as President, Wilson persuaded a Democratic Congress to pass major progressive reforms. Historian John M. Cooper argues that, in his first term, Wilson successfully pushed a legislative agenda that few presidents have equaled, and remained unmatched up until the New Deal.[1] This agenda included the Federal Reserve Act, Federal Trade Commission Act, the Clayton Antitrust Act, the Federal Farm Loan Act and an income tax. Child labor was curtailed by the Keating–Owen Act of 1916, but the U.S. Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional in 1918. He also had Congress pass the Adamson Act, which imposed an 8-hour workday for railroads.[2] Wilson, after first sidestepping the issue, became a major advocate for the women's suffrage.
...

Link

It is obvious some people are trying to "rewrite history" to fit their agenda, whatever it might be...

Lincoln was born in a POOR family, and he succeded in educating himself and became a lawyer. He wasn't rich, and he didn't form the Union/the United States...

The United States/the Union ALREADY EXISTED when Lincoln became President...

The south was made up of mostly RICH DEMOCRATS who were the main owners of slaves, and were plantation owners in the U.S. back then.

All these new lies about "Lincoln didn't want to free slaves, and he owned slaves" is nothing more than new lies. Lincoln didn't form the union... The founding fathers did...

Seven RICH southern slave states decided to declare their secession from the Union when Lincoln became President because they knew that he wanted to free slaves. He made this fact, that he hated slavery, clear frequently...

The RICH southern DEMOCRATS formed the confederate states, and yes the main reason for doing this was because they wanted to keep their slaves...

The only freedom the confederates were fighting for was for what they saw as their right to keep slaves...

BTW, show PROOF that Lincoln owned slaves... I am sure you won't find any...

Lincoln's wife came from a family which was known to own slaves, but neither Lincoln, nor his wife owned any slaves....

Lincoln lived his entire adult life in Illinois and indiana, where it was illegal to own slaves. Not to mention the fact that he wrote, and made speeches FREQUENTLY in which he stated firmly that he hated slavery...

reply to post by xstealth


Oh and btw...let's see the REAL context in which General Patrick made that speech shall we?...

...
Our soldiers can see no end to this state of affairs except in our own exhaustion; hence, instead of rising to the occasion, they are sinking into a fatal apathy, growing weary of hardships and slaughters which promise no results. In this state of things it is easy to understand why there is a growing belief that some black catastrophe is not far ahead of us, and that unless some extraordinary change is soon made in our condition we must overtake it. The consequences of this condition are showing themselves more plainly every day; restlessness of morals spreading everywhere, manifesting itself in the army in a growing disregard for private rights; desertion spreading to a class of soldiers it never dared to tamper with before; military commissions sinking in the estimation of the soldier; our supplies failing; our firesides in ruins. If this state continues much longer we must be subjugated. Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late. We can give but a faint idea when we say it means the loss of all we now hold most sacred — slaves and all other personal property, lands, homesteads, liberty, justice, safety, pride, manhood. It means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by all the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision. It means the crushing of Southern manhood, the hatred of our former slaves, who will, on a spy system, be our secret police. The conqueror's policy is to divide the conquered into factions and stir up animosity among them, and in training an army of negroes the North no doubt holds this thought in perspective. We can see three great causes operating to destroy us: First, the inferiority of our armies to those of the enemy in point of numbers; second, the poverty of our single source of supply in comparison with his several sources; third, the fact that slavery, from being one of our chief sources of strength at the commencement of the war, has now become, in a military point of view, one of our chief sources of weakness.
...

www.sewanee.edu...

Do note how the General writes SLAVERY as the first of their rights, and saw slavery as one of the main cause for the southern's strength...

Perhaps the OP should learn to properly excerpt and always provide a source...

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
...
History is awesome.

edit on 9-7-2012 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)

If you actually read from that site, you will find that the author made many ASSUMPTIONS about Lincoln's point of view.

In many cases the author doesn't even present evidence to support his claims, such as not giving direct excerpts/evidence from Lincoln's own writing corroborating the claims of the author. He just presents his claims as truth.

I don't find that website as a true portrayer of "history", but rather the CLAIMS from an author who says is the truth and bases his evidence on ASSUMPTIONS...

ASSUMPTIONS don't make facts, nor are ASSUMPTIONS true conveyors of history...

Speaking from todays point of view, today here in 2012, I live in the South East, though North Carolina would seem un-south by virtue of the name 'North Carolina', let me assure it IS the south. It was the battleground for many attempts to push out the North. We have one more president than the rest of the nation too. However all the history played out, and having lived in some pretty liberal states, I believe there is a certain charm living in the South. A mindset, a morality, a refusal to sell out to TPTB. We are pretty well divided in populations %-wise of Blacks and Whites, and I don't think anywhere else in America has a population that co-exists better than the south as far as Race and peaceful co-existence.

Thanks for posting the quote and for giving Patrick Cleburne a bit of well-deserved credit. Even of those familiar with the Civil War Cleburne's name is often unknown which is a true shame for a leader of such brilliance and bravery.
The Army of Tennessee had many fine generals though they suffered badly from leadership under Gen's Bragg and Hood who both had a penchant for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Among generals of the Army of Tennessee Cleburne was the most able and the record of his brigade and divisional command is unmatched.
He also recommended that slaves be freed and allowed to fight for freedom under the stars and bars, a sentiment Lee shared.

Cleburne fell in the suicidal assault on Franklin, TN ordered by Hood which resulted in more casualties than even Pickett's charge yet few have even heard of the battle. 7 other generals were also killed and the Army of Tennessee was no longer a viable fighting force afterward.

You hadn't heard of Frankin?
I guess Cleburne was right about who writes the history.

As a Southerner I take pride in the bravery and sacrifices made by my ancestors. I also honor those brave men of the Union armies who fought against them because both sides were still Americans.

Originally posted by Advantage
Lincoln.. the Father of Big Government.

Mistakenly many believe the CW was about Slavery and abolition. Nope. It was about money, the South was by far more rich than the North due to the climate.

They were rich due to the slaves working in that climate.
No slaves, no wealth.

Originally posted by Advantage
Lincoln.. the Father of Big Government.

Mistakenly many believe the CW was about Slavery and abolition. Nope. It was about money, the South was by far more rich than the North due to the climate.. and as the above person stated.. states rights. Lincoln established the grossly bloated Federal hydra we have today.

Right, free labor had nothing to do with the riches they amassed...

Education...get one.