A quote from the civil war, before it ended. You all should read this.

“Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late… It means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision… It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.”


Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864

A very strong statement and I agree with it... in the proper context. In which context do you apply this to OP? In other words, who do you consider your enemy?

Originally posted by fenceSitter
A very strong statement and I agree with it... in the proper context. In which context do you apply this to OP? In other words, who do you consider your enemy?

Lincoln was a tyrant.


If you bring these [Confederate] leaders to trial it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution secession is not rebellion. Lincoln wanted Davis to escape, and he was right. His capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one.”

Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, July 1867 (Foote, The Civil War, Vol. 3, p. 765)

The Civil War was all about the destruction of state's rights, and not really about slavery. The north had plenty of slaves, too. Even Lincoln didn't consider the slaves to be equal to the white man.

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

-Abraham Lincoln, 1858

markii.wordpress.com...

The south wanted to secede, and Lincoln wanted a more centralized governmental overreach. He got what he wanted, and our current state of affairs is the end result.

Sorry - I thought you were trying to apply this quote to some situation in the world today. Once upon a time men could speak honestly and wisely and people would listen. Now it seems that propaganda is the preferred method of communication regardless if there is any truth behind it or not.

Lincoln.. the Father of Big Government. Mistakenly many believe the CW was about Slavery and abolition. Nope. It was about money, the South was by far more rich than the North due to the climate.. and as the above person stated.. states rights. Lincoln established the grossly bloated Federal hydra we have today.

Originally posted by fenceSitter
Sorry - I thought you were trying to apply this quote to some situation in the world today. Once upon a time men could speak honestly and wisely and people would listen. Now it seems that propaganda is the preferred method of communication regardless if there is any truth behind it or not.

I was, General Cleburne and many other Confederates saw the cost of the war. If they were not victorious, we would lose our liberties and freedoms.

It held true.

It was not the "Civil War" as the victors taught, but in reality it was our "2nd war of independence"



Listen to the words of this speach by Stonewall.

reply to post by xstealth
The quote is very telling as far as history is written.What we have to remember is not only history written by the victors, but also history is written with a class bias. "Wretched would be the work of those who scold the efforts, who's daily efforts are stimulated by daily hunger." EDWARD GIBBONS Author The Decline and Fall of the Roman RepublicThis writing of history with a class perspective is much more prevalent than we perceive. Always ask yourself "who is giving me this information?" If you're interested in things such as these this is a good lecture to listen to.

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

-Abraham Lincoln, 1858

I'm inclined to believe that Lincoln was about as broad minded towards the black population, as a white individual of the time was capable of being. My parents were racist, and class prejudiced; it has been a very difficult thing for me to overcome, and I'm still not claiming that I have entirely.

I don't consider Lincoln a tyrant. I actually believe that in terms of what his intentions were, he was an unusually virtuous individual, as far as occupants of the Presidency go. It's not an office that attracts good men, but I tend to view him as one of the best who has held it.

He was misguided, however. He should have let the South secede, and history has demonstrated that he was wrong to beat them into submission instead. Then again, it probably also wasn't exclusively his decision. Federalism is a tool of psychopaths only; the common man derives no benefit from it, and never has.

Originally posted by petrus4

I don't consider Lincoln a tyrant.

If arresting journalists, invading sovereign states, authorizing the burning of American properties and homes, disarming citizens, and killing 600,000 Americans isn't tyrannical, then what is?

Listen to the words of this speach by Stonewall.

"The Southern side of this epic story has been misinterpreted and lost in the sands of time and victor's history ... here's a $60 million blockbuster action film from Hollywood you can watch to learn the real background of this suppressed history."

¿que?

(BTW - Cleburne was an ex-British soldier who was a U.S. citizen for exactly 8 months when the Civil War broke out. I don't feel he's a good source to quote on the meaning of Americana.)

reply to post by petrus4


You think men were incapable of seeing the potential and equality in blacks at the time? Lincoln was far from "broad-minded" on the subject. He though black people were lesser beings and said so, he freed the slaves to hurt the south econimically only (he never felt as if he was freeing his fellow men). It also served as great way to contiuosly denounce the south.

Originally posted by Castillo

Listen to the words of this speach by Stonewall.

"The Southern side of this epic story has been misinterpreted and lost in the sands of time and victor's history ... here's a $60 million blockbuster action film from Hollywood you can watch to learn the real background of this suppressed history."

¿que?

(BTW - Cleburn was an ex-British soldier who was a U.S. citizen for exactly 8 months when the Civil War broke out. I don't feel he's a good source to reference on the meaning of Americana.)

edit on 9-7-2012 by Castillo because: (no reason given)

It's a real speech, it was spoken well in the movie. The movie has nothing to do with this thread, the speech does

Cleburne came to the USA in 1850, that's 11 years before the civil war. He also had one of the best military records in civil war history, and wounded several times in battle before being killed at the battle of Franklin. He was a true American hero, who knew more about Americana than you ever will.

Quit polluting this thread with ignorance.

Originally posted by xstealth

Originally posted by Castillo

Listen to the words of this speach by Stonewall.

"The Southern side of this epic story has been misinterpreted and lost in the sands of time and victor's history ... here's a $60 million blockbuster action film from Hollywood you can watch to learn the real background of this suppressed history."

¿que?

(BTW - Cleburn was an ex-British soldier who was a U.S. citizen for exactly 8 months when the Civil War broke out. I don't feel he's a good source to reference on the meaning of Americana.)

edit on 9-7-2012 by Castillo because: (no reason given)

It's a real speech, it was spoken well in the movie.

Never said it wasn't. I said it's hilarious you're saying the southern side of the story has been overwritten by victor's history while, at the same time, posting clips from a $60 million Hollywood blockbuster that - as you admit - accurately tells the southern side of the story.

I lol'ed

lolllllllll'ed, I tell you

victor's history doesn't usually involve Warner Bros. Entertainment making $60 million blockbuster films that tell the losers side of the story

Cleburne came to the USA in 1850, that's 11 years before the civil war.

And he became an U.S. citizen exactly 8 months before the Civil War broke-out. Like I said.

*ANGER ANGER* *POUNDING ON MY KEYBOARD* *GET OUT OF MY THREAD* YOU aRe teh IGNURANT POOPY HEAD - THIS THREAD BE FER AGREEMENT ONLY!

mmmmkay

Originally posted by Castillo

Cleburne came to the USA in 1850, that's 11 years before the civil war.

And he became an U.S. citizen exactly 8 months before the Civil War broke-out. Like I said.

In February 1855, weeks before his twenty-seventh birthday, Cleburne became a naturalized citizen of the United States. Cleburne was admitted to the bar in January 1856

civilwarhelena.com...

Originally posted by xstealth

Originally posted by Castillo

Cleburne came to the USA in 1850, that's 11 years before the civil war.

And he became an U.S. citizen exactly 8 months before the Civil War broke-out. Like I said.

In February 1855, weeks before his twenty-seventh birthday, Cleburne became a naturalized citizen of the United States. Cleburne was admitted to the bar in January 1856

civilwarhelena.com...

The link didn't open for me - is it to another $60 million Hollywood blockbuster film?

Guy, I think it's horrible the U.S. side of Pearl Harbor has never been told before in the history books. I have access to the forgotten history of this epic struggle ...

The Scottish side of the struggle for Gaelic independence has never really been told. It's just the British with their victor's history. Fortunately, I stumbled across this little-known piece of archival history -

Cleburne was enamored of the posh lifestyle of the Southern landholders, and as an attorney was quickly (and gratefully) assimilated into the southern social upper class... after having failed to achieve that status via a medical degree in the place of his birth.

There is no doubt that the wisdom of his utterance is true; but I'm afraid counting him as a "hero" of Americana - which I am presuming you mean as if to say "A lover of American political principles" seems incorrect to me.

As for the sentiment of tyranny in the person of Lincoln... or any other person past, present, or future... the real truth to my mind is... for tyranny to succeed, people must acquiesce to it.... so that label can go to almost ANY president... The practice of sitting in that seat makes such perceptions baggage you cannot discard.

History is written by the victors... and still is. And there were victors on both sides... families and enterprises that did well before, during, and after the war.... none of them can rightly stand up to moral scrutiny... and they still can't.

We have enough reason to separate ourselves from one another... let's not elevate every misdeed to the level of hating each other...

What we need is literal factual history, and a press that prospers only in the dissemination of those actual facts. From thence we can proceed to flog one another over what was and wasn't proper,. moral, or just.